This is all Nam's fault! She got me thinking. That can be dangerous.

My children have been told that their dad was nearly suicidal because I didn't keep the house neat enough to suit him. Yup, that is the only significant thing he ever told me that I did wrong.

I have just gone along with the story. Haven't bothered them w/ the truth.

I have told them he had been suicidal several times during our marriage. That it had started as early as 1.5 years into it. And that he did say the main thing I did wrong was not be neat enough.

Of all the emotional needs, I perceive that his only EN was DS.

I recently told him that that seemed to be his only need.....not Attractive Spouse, not affirmation, not affection, not recreational companion, not finances, not sexual fulfillment, not anything.....Needs 1-5 = DS for him.

So, they have never been told what he told me at the very end. He met someone at work in whom he was interested. She was single, had two small children, had no one to help her, her life was hard, he felt sorry for her, and he wanted to explore the relationship. That, when I asked him if it bothered him that he was putting his family in that same situation, he said he it did bother him but he had this chance for happiness and he thought he had to take it. That, even after leaving, he called me on more than one occaision because he was was suicidal and he reached out to me for help. And I was always there.

They don't know that he had more than one of these emotional affairs. The OW in another one told me when I asked her. That person was my sister - the same one who won't speak to me now. (BTW, she turned him down - this was early in my marriage - about the time of his first suicidal episode.)

Children are 15 and 13. They will never remember living in their FOO, probably. They were 4 and 2 when he left.

I have told them there is more but that, until the time is right, I am willing to accept the story they currently have - as long as they realize that they don't know it all.

So, do they need to know the rest of the story.

Let them ask, rather than volunteer - you've laid some good groundwork - and the time will be just right when they ask for it.

not unless they ask, I agree. Your story may just confuse them at the time, or just be too much information, and the issues are adult issues, not children issues. . . bringing the old adult issues into their life complicates their life more than necessary.

wiftty

Do you think you should tell them more because THEY want to know or because YOU want them to know?

I wouldn't add more emotional baggage to their plate unless they specifically ask for it.

Hi Cinderella

I cannot believe this to be true. Although it is possible that his EN was too great for you to satisfy, I can't help but think that ongoing depression was the cause of his suicidal tendencies. What did his doctors tell you?

I am concerned that, if you explained things to your kids the way you just did to us, your kids will believe that unmet ENs cause someone to be suicidal. There are lots of people on MB with unmet ENs, but I doubt that even one quarter of them are or have been suicidal over it.

I have a sister who was suicidal on three occassions. She was in a relationship two out of three of the times. Her boyfriends were not to blame. An undiagnosed bipolar disorder was. She's completely mentally healthy today thanks to meds (always) and counselling (back then).

Was your XH ever diagnosed with a mental health issue?


Just my thoughts...


Mrs. W8ing

The first thing I would be concerned about is the kids understanding of their father's...ah...state of mental health. If your ex was truly suicidal, not just a dramatic attention seeker, they ought to know his mental & emotional health aren't good. Like waiting I wonder if he's been diagnosed with something.

Determining why you think they need to know is important. As wiftty said, bringing adult issues in can complicate things. I was afraid of influencing & of bringing up issues that were more between their father & I. It can be a fine line between what they need to know & what we need to say, just not to them.

I agree with the others, wait for the kids to bring the subject up.

Are you glad I got the ball rolling? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mentally healthy people do not become suicidal because their spouse (or roommate/sibling/parent/child) is not neat enough. They may become annoyed; more than likely, they will take over the cleaning. I don't think it is a good idea for kids to grow up with the mistaken impression that not being a good enough housekeeper, or not being perfect in some other way, can drive their partner to suicide. What if they start worrying that if they fall short of their father's expectations, that they could drive him to suicide? I think that is a heavy burden to put on a child. I think it is critically important to let them know that he suffered/suffers from clinical depression.

What if they worry that their messes (and I am sure, at 2 & 4, they probably generated their fair share) somehow caused their father to be suicidal and/or to leave? It is always better to tell the children the truth. As they enter adolescence and soon to be adulthood, it is even more important to let them know that divorce, and even many breakups among steady gf's/bf's, are almost always the result of infidelity.

They will almost undoubtedly feel betrayed all over again when they realize the truth.

I would be kind enough to tell them only that he had been interested in another woman at the time he left and that was not the first time he had interests outside his marriage. And I heard about the final one from the secretary in his office. (I would not give as many details as I gave y'all.)

I understand that he came from a family w/ mental health issues - in fact we both did.

That is probably part - only part - of why our daughter was hospitalized for suicidal ideation/depression last year. Since then, we have talked about depression, mental health and things like that. Therapy is nothing new to us. Both children had counselors by the time they were 5 or so. And are doing very well now. All three of us have psychiatrists - we are the ADD/ADHD poster family. So, mental health maintenance is very cool with us.

We also talk, around here, about the differences between the two parents - the things that annoy one or the other. The differing expectations.

So, I wonder how long I should have to be the 'bad guy' because that is how I feel I look to them.

Well, I feel that I look that way to them. That is a statement of MY FEELINGS

They have both said it's a pretty lousy thing to do to leave your spouse because they are messy. If the children know that, that's important.

I disagree,

technically, your statement is not about feelings, its an assumption about their perception of you, which is reflective of a fear, or your issue.

if you were to make a statement of feelings, then complete the sentence with your feelings of one word in the underlined section.

"When my kids look at me, I feel _______________"

or

"When my kids perceive me as divorced, I feel _________"


wiftty

Wiffty....you are a male 'T' and I am one of those oh-so-complicated female 'F'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hey Birthday Buddy,

I love you bucketloads, but I'm gonna call you on this. We've BOTH been to enough 12-step meetings to know we seek to discern what we have control over, what we don't, and the wisdom to know the difference. In a nutshell, tending to our side of the street. Your ex's issues are exactly that, HIS issues. And what went on between the two of you in your marriage was between you two. He is their father, not their ex-husband. You are certainly entitled to your feelings of anger, hurt, betrayal at his behavior during your marriage. But those are the things you discuss with your friends, and therapist. Remember the term "emotional incest"? It's when we as parents turn to our children for emotional support and expect them to validate us as a peer would.

Which is not to say that your children should not be informed of pertinent medical and mental health issues at appropriate times. Nor is it to say that you couldn't comment on more benign aspects of your marriage (i.e., Your dad always wanted to watch westerns on TV and I always wanted to watch ice skating. We never did agree on things like that.) That's not accusatory, just one example of obviously many points of disagreement.

I can share with you that I never discussed with DD#2 the particulars of my divorce from her father when she was 3 (meaning his serial affairs throughout our marriage). I think I assumed she would learn of that from DD#1, since #1 was old enough, and DID, know what was going on. DD#2 finally did ask me when she was about 22, and I told her. Throughout her childhood and adolescence she had enough issues with his (lack of) parental involvement and parenting skills without burdening her with information that did not directly affect her at the time.

I've made it a point (obviously after some MAJOR therapy and healing) not to share my opinions with DD#3 and DD#4 regarding their dad and his obvious dysfunction. And, as it turns out, they've figured him out all on their own. They see him as the emotionally and verbally abusive person that he is, and choose to spend very little time with him. Instead of criticizing him just in general (and that would be sooooo easy to do) when he as said or done something hurtful or inappropriate, they tell me about it and we talk about his "bad behaviors" not being about them, that people who have been hurt often go on to hurt other people, just because it's what they know. Because, face it, he isn't likely to change, and he's always going to be their father and they love him for that fact alone. Hopefully they're learning that although they can't control his behaviors, they can control their exposure to it, can give his unkind comments and harsh criticisms the weight it deserves, and they know where to go for healthy validation.

I guess, in short, they'll figure out themselves the man their father is. And you may not realize it now, but I think as they get older your children will respect you for protecting their childhood from as much of the ugliness of divorce as you can. You may feel like the "bad guy," and they may even feel that way for a minute, or actually verbalize that. But you know what the truth is, and the truth always . . . I repeat always . . wins out in the end. They're teenagers, for crying out loud! If you're not the bad guy, then you ain't doin' something right. :-) Hang in Cindy, I love you!


LT

And I love you, too.

Hope your birthday was great.

I haven't breathed a word of this stuff to them. Just ask d once what she knew. She gave me his version of the story. I told her there was lots more to it but that, for now, I was prepared to take the brunt of the blame.

One of these days she'll figure it out....maybe. And if she doesn't....I'll still survive.

I just get fed up with feeling like I am the only one accepting responsibility. And the only one being really sullied in the story.

Not mad. Just fed up. Annoyed. Tired of it.

Sweetie, don't give him, or anyone else for that matter, the power to "sully" anything about you. Permission denied. Perspective is everything. So his perspective is screwy. Happiness is the best revenge. Take back the power you have given to him to affect your self perception. That will be an awesome example and gift to your kids, especially your precious daughter.

And, yeah, doing the right, responsible thing isn't "fun." And I'm pretty p*ss*d off at whoEVER it was that led me at an impressionable age to believe that life is always fair and always fun. Whoever they are, they should be ashamed of themselves. But I digress. If you feel a moral obligation to do what's right and set that example for your kids, that beats "fun" in the long run. You already know that, but you need to hear it more often. I can relate. So, , , , Princess, you are performing the arduous, thankless task, of raising considerate, upstanding, productive members of society in an admirable and consistent manner. We salute you for your valiant efforts and job well done. (Read aloud daily, several times daily as needed)

Birthday was okay. Ya know, 38 rocked, and it's looking like 48 is gonna be a good one, too. That's MY perspective. LOL. We need to get together, form a grassroots support group. Or something.

LT

oh gawd, cinderella loves guys and gals. . . what is the world coming to?

ok - sign me up for the support group


Yeah, I like guys and I like gals - in the normal way

"Not that there's anything wrong with that. . . " George Costanza