Hi guys I haven't posted in a while. I'm still trying to be patient. But I have to say I don't have a good feeling about this "recovery". A little over a week ago FWH and I had a fight. That may not seem like much but for conflict avoiders like us I thought it might be a good thing. He said some horrible things to me (not A related), we talked and I tried to explain my point a view. He listened but didn't accept what I said. Like his way of thinking was the ONLY way of thinking. I tried to get a middle ground where we could come to some kind of understanding. Didn't happen he would only accept complete surrender and that wouldn't have been good enough. Over the last week as the situation has unfolded my perspective is playing out...and had he listened to me it would have been to his advantage. I feel like saying "I told you so! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />" but that would be a LB for sure.

I had a very disturbing dream last night about OW showing up and my house and WH leaving with her. Ya know how you feel emotions in a dream? Like waking up crying. I felt ANGER...RAGE, I have never felt anything like it awake or in dreams....I didn't know I had it in me. I guess its good to let out.

I was just thinking about you...

Have you ever read my Personal Recovery thread..where I have gotten help on conflicts with my H?

You might find it helpful...

Oh, Cha-cha..Hang in there..

What you are describing is part of Recovery...

Your FWH is an emotional wreck..so are you...that's what you are experiencing...

I don't think this is the time for you to argue..

You are both much too emotionally wounded to be able to take care of yourselves...

I used to think of us as being the WALKING WOUNDED coming from the midst of a WAR BATTLE...

Hi, ChaCha...I've missed you! Good to see you around...

I hope that you didn't take what he said to heart, just as info. It amazing what can be said when people are angry?

Yeah, I don't think the I told you so would be so great! LOL I do understand you wanting to...

I'm one of those dreamers...although it hasn't happened in a long time...like you said it's good to get it out! I would have to get out of bed and calm myself down because the feelings would be so intense...remind myself it's just a dream...

BTW, HI, MIMI! I hope that you are doing well!

ChaCha...you know how wonderful you are...I don't have to tell you...you've done a great job...hang in there like mimi said...keep your head up...you're doing great!

Change is scary...

CC, I was also wondering how you were doing lately.

Being the eternal optimist that I am, I see this as a step in the right direction...and here is why.

You and your FWH have been in the state of withdrawal for a long time now. Your goal is to get back to the state of intimacy with your FWH, however to get their you need to go through the state of conflict first. That is not and easy task. Sure is sound SIMPLE but it is far from EASY! I think that is why recovery is so difficult since it requires a tremendous amount of effort on the part of BS to put their TAKER aside by not LB'ing and meeting the FWS's most important EN's.

It is a good sign that your FWH is in conflict with you since it indicates that he has an interest in your M. Remember that Dr. Harley says that when in the state of conflict you will "do whatever you can to make yourself happy, and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes your spouse unhappy"

It would be easy for you to join him in this state that would surely lead you back to withdrawl. The state of withdrawal is an emotional black hole and you don't want to go back there. I know I hate it! You may have already read what Dr. Harely wrote about this, but I'll post it since it may apply to your situation.


One spouse may also lead the other on the road back from Withdrawal to Conflict and eventually to back to Intimacy. In Withdrawal, a husband may decide to make a new effort to restore Intimacy and toss out an olive branch. That effort places him back into the Conflict state, while his wife is still in Withdrawal.

Suppose his effort is an encouragement to her and she eventually joins him in the state of Conflict. Now they are both willing to have their needs met by the other, but their Takers encourage them to fight about it, rather than negotiate intelligently and peacefully. In all too many cases, if they follow their Taker's advice and argue rather than negotiate, they both find themselves back in the state of Withdrawal, convinced that in that state their marriage is safer, and certainly more peaceful.

But this step from Withdrawal to Conflict is a step in the right direction, and provides spouses an opportunity to regain Intimacy -- if they can resist the advice of their Takers. Withdrawal may seem more peaceful, but it is actually a shuttering down of the marriage. A return to the state of Conflict is a sign that the partners have restored hope -- the marriage is worth fighting over. By coming out of Withdrawal, they are lowering their emotional defenses and taking the risk of getting close to each other again.

While demanding and arguing is instinctive in the state of Conflict, one spouse can lead the other back to Intimacy by resisting the Taker's temptation to fight. It takes two to argue, and if one spouse makes an effort to avoid making demands and judgmental statements, and tries to be thoughtful and meet the other's needs, the other spouse usually calms down and does the same thing.

Once they see each other's caring efforts, and rebuild their Love Bank accounts, they re-enter the Intimacy stage. But there's an irony that trips up some couples. Which spouse do you think is the first to move back into the state of Intimacy: the one who makes the first effort to meet the other's needs, or the recipient of that effort? You may have guessed it. The recipient of care is usually the first to return to the state of intimacy, and not the one who make the greatest effort to save the relationship.

If you set a good example by meeting your spouse's needs first, alas, that usually means that your own needs are met last. Your Taker is not pleased with this arrangement, and may try to sabotage it. You will need to make a deliberate and patient effort to override the Taker's instinct to retreat back to fighting and name-calling. But if you resist that instinct to argue, and instead focus attention on behaving thoughtfully and meeting your spouse's needs, your spouse will be encouraged to reciprocate.

Granted, when in the state of Conflict, it's much more difficult to be thoughtful and meet each other's emotional needs. That's because the Taker's advice dominates the Giver's advice, and the Taker isn't interested in thoughtfulness or meeting someone else's needs. So if you want to return to Intimacy, you must override this instinct with great effort. Meeting an emotional need in marriage is easy when you are in the state of Intimacy, because the Giver encourages you to do just that. But in the state of Confict, it seems very unnatural and even unfair.

When your Love Bank balances are finally restored, and your love for each other is triggered again, the struggle is over. You will have returned to Intimacy, and along with it, everything you need to do for each other will seem almost effortless.

The passage from Intimacy, through Conflict, to Withdrawal is a slippery slope. You can get there before you know it. But it takes quite a bit of work to climb back up that hill. While one of you can help by pulling the other back up the hill, it's a lot easier when you both work together. And the best way to work yourselves back to Intimacy from Withdrawal and Conflict is by negotiating effectively.


Don't quit now!

As for the dreams, I had similar dreams after d-day#2 and they were the most vivid and emotional dreams that I ever had.

So stay the course and keep us updated!

HTW

WOW, HTW! I think you nailed it here, and reminded me of some great stuff. For that I thank you!

ChaCha...what do you think?

HTW, mimi and Rin...

Thanks so much for the support. This seems like this has been going on an eternity and I am barely keeping my head above water. I've been reading and not posting because I've been feeling pretty hopeless.

HTW....THANK YOU so much for posting the excerpt about withdrawl/conflict/intimacy, I read it a long time ago. I need to go back and read the basics. I inhaled the website when I first found it but thats been almost 2 years ago. I think I need a refresher.

My Taker is certainly shouting "WHAT ABOUT ME?" And it is hard to keep her in check. I need to find a balance in being assertive but not love-busting.

Thanks again for being out there!

I know that taker can be hard to deal with...remember to stand still...maybe FWH needs to caught up with you...you have made great progress...it wasn't long ago that he started on his journey...

Hopeless...a fear of what? What are you afraid of? The unknown?...stay present...one day at a time...not tomorrow...not next week...today...you know this...you wouldn't have made it this far had you not...

You are a wonderfully intelligent person, strong...How's Plan A? Remember you're time will come...but slow down...let him caught up!

Rindy makes an excellent point here. I remember ark posting about this not to long ago and it makes perfect sense. Once the BS gets caught up in the antics of a WS they begin to loose control of the situation. By being still YOU remain in CONTROL. It worked wonderfully for MWIL as he slowly attracted his WS back by being still.

Orcid also started a post not too long ago about how the BS can kill the A by not letting the WS actions get to them. It all relates to being STILL.

CC, is yur FWH currently meeting any of your EN's?

HPW,

Glad to know our small posts are helpful. U made my day!!! In a good way, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This stuff does take time but when it does settle in, may find that it works!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Orchid, the one thing that I still can't get a handle on is reverse babble. By the time I realize that my WW is babbling it is too late. I still think I'm dealing with a rational person so I'm nver quite ready for her babble. She really doesn't babble as much as she did 6-12 months ago and at that time I was like a deer in the headlights <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Your post and those of other have helped me immensely. Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is the very reason why it is important for you to post here, Cha-Cha. Maybe we can help you with the feeling of hopelessness. Many of us have been there.



What is this about? We need to help you figure out ways to take better care of yourself. For sure, your H cannot adequately meet your needs now as he recovers from his affair. It is really best for you and your marriage that BOTH of you HEAL adequately.

We want to do more than be "OUT HERE"....

We want to talk with you when you have the time...

HPW,

For most, Reverse Babble takes practice. I practiced a lot at the beginning. Yea....I can be quick witted but this RB stuff is a diferent animal. I had to learn to distinguish between valuable info and RB which was all intermixed from the WS/Xws and on a dime had to respond to both appropriately. Even to this day, I use that technique.

Last year when I worked for the owner of a small ocmpany who was (iunbeknownst to me at the time I accepted the job) a WS and the OW was his right hand floozy receptionist (she did more than just answer phones), I leanred to reverse babble even him whne it was appropriate. I recall one evening (I used to work 14 hours a day and on weekends because we had to do her work also....anyways...... the WSboss stops by my office (a large closet = LOL!!!) to tell me out of the blue that he would NEVER fire the OW. No preconversation or question from me prompted that statement, he just passed my door stood in the hallway and made that comment. It went something like:

WSboss: I will NEVER fire OW. NEVER.....do you understand?

ME: (giving him the best perplexed look I could must in an instant) Ok.....that's your choice..... u r the owner of this company.... u can do whatever you want.....why tell me?

WSboss: (stunned and frustrated that he didn't anger me - his eyes almost looked like it took a trip around his head and his stumbled a bit then he said with a furred brow) .....ugh.....ok.

Then he proceeded to walk (only about 15 steps to his office. What a riot. He later walked by again but did not say anything. I felt his glare but didn't respond. After I was done working for the evening, I left....no goodbye as I normally bequeth to the sane. LOL!!! ....and you know what? WSboss knew it. He knew he had fumbled.....he never made that kind of stupid remark to me or anyone else that I am aware of. I let the other 2 employees and some of his relatives (WSboss is s dstant relative also - YIKES!!!). All of them thought his remark was a foolish one. Btw, WSboss is over 60 years old. OW is in her early 30s. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

I wish I could do reverse babble to! I always think of the most clever thing like 2 hours too late!

Here's a little more about whats been going on. FWH is still living in RV at FIL's. He says he wants us to move...that he will never live in this house again. He won't move back home because he doesn't want things to return to status quo. (Previously he said he wouldn't live here because he hates our town and the people in it.) I don't believe he is in contact w/ OW... but who knows? We have not been out on a date since went to Puerto Rico a month ago. He comes down to see the kids and takes them out but does not include me. When I suggest we do something as a family he says "We'll see." but it doesn't happen.

He has been focusing on fixing the house. Which does meet my domestic EN. (not high on my priority list) He is making an effort to connect w/ the kids. (which is important to me). SF is not a problem (in my top 5)

What my TAKER wants: AFFECTION, CONVERSATION, family time with the WHOLE family ( 2 parents, 2 kids), time alone w/FWH, attention from FWH, validation, respect, FUN, honesty, love. I know FWH isn't going to fullfill these EN right now. But it is what my TAKER wants.

As FWH was leaving tonight I asked him for a kiss goodbye. He looked at me like I was crazy and asked why. I responded playfully "Do I need a reason? Can't I just want a kiss...want you...be attracted to you...just to feel your lips?" And then my friend showed up to get a blood pressure cuff she needed to borrow. She was only here a couple minutes, he waited until she was gone...and then he left...without a kiss. My TAKER & GIVER feel rejected.

Do u really want to cuddle or be kissed by a Xws?

Sorry your taker was hurt but think about it.....wouldn't you rather see your H than the Xws in your home? So the next time he babbles about not wanting the house or whatever, remind him of WHO he really is and then tell him you don't want that in him either. Just babble it back.....

Example:

WS: I don't want this chair or this house.....

BS: I know u don't. My H loves it and so do we.....now go find my real H.

L.

Once again...you're right! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I guess he is still in the middle of a morph stage. And what I was really looking for was some intimacy. When we are intimate the wall is gone, I can look in his eyes and see my H. Then the wall goes back up and its FWH...better than WH but not near as wonderful as H.

He has been out of the house for 3 months....H has been missing for a few years...I guess its gonna take time to find him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

chacha! When is your XWH moving home? Of course you are confused, it has been a long time for you to wait for affection. Sending you {{}} hugs.

FWH has been out of the house a little over 3 months. When he left we agreed that we would evaluate our situation after 3 months and decide where to go from there. Its time for that evaluation now.

I was thinking that I will let him do the talking. I would like us to start MC...I feel like we are stuck...again. We need help facilitating moving forward.

Part of me thinks that he will just want to walk away. When I was in plan B he did all kinds of tricks and promised to do whatever we needed to do to move ahead.He wrote NC letter. We went on 1 date, we went on a short trip to Puerto Rico, we started renovations on the house so we could move. Now...nothing, he won't kiss me, he doesn't want to spend time alone w/ me, he is ignoring me again. I feel like going back to plan B it seems he climbed back up on the fence.

Its hard to be patient.

CHaCHa- seems like we are in the same place right now...I would let him do the talking...some good info may come out of it...the more he speaks the more you learn...remember to be open minded and don't discredit what he says...

Maybe you can remind me of that some time...LOL

It's good to hear from you...

Take care and be all YOU can be...I know that's tough...

Go ask the Xws to go find your H. That's what I did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi Cha Cha,

I've been following your sitch. It was looking so promising. Now he sounds mean again. Don't know what to tell you other than I understand how you are feeling.

How's the new job going?

S.