They probably already suspect something... my 8 and 11 year daughter's know about mom's new boyfriend. she has already told them that she probably will marry him after our divorce in six months, she has been reconnected with him for a little over 2 months. In the first few weeks she had told them that they could be moving to NY in a year or so... where OM lives. That pissed everyone off, the kids her parents that just moved here from NY. Now she is commuting to NY once a month for long weekends with him. So my kids are acutely aware of how screwed up things are.

I would expose the fact that their mother has left the marriage and not in a very mature way... I would have liked my WW to leave and separate and wait the time for the divorce so we could heal and get the kids adjusted but she has jumped into two relationships in the six months we have been separated both of them she "loved" the OM but the last OM is truelove from years prior.

Good luck

Wait until you have evidence that OM is back in the picture.

GC

You are right GC. No need to expose to the boys. I think I was just getting a little frustrated because she has told them some of the "reasons" which of course were the things I did or didn't do.
Today she picked up the youngest, not to go to church but to go to walmart and her house. Gone for four hours. When she dropped him off she just left, so I called her cell. I asked her again if she would let me know what her plans are as when she moved out she didn't tell me anything. So some of the conversation was:
She doesn't know what her plans are.
She is scared.
She is working on herself.????????????
She can't explain what that means.
She has an appointment set up wed with a lawyer for legal Separation.
She will let me know the outcome of that meeting.
She does not want alimony.
She does not want the vehicles,(except hers) furniture or anything else in the house.
She wants the boys to spend some time with her but won't force it.
She says the boys love me and she won't do anything to make them not etc. I told her that I think they should stay at home as the primary home, given thier age and gender, this is the home they have been in for 12 years, etc. But They should spend some time with her.
She doesn't want to pay me any child support.
She doesn't want anything from the river land that we own with my brother. 100 acres of boys playground.
She wants the rent house we have by the college campus to remain for the boys. Told her that the only way to get her monet from it would be to sell it.
All she would want would be half the equity in our house and half of the retirement.
She cares for me anmd they boys and would never try and stick it to me....doesn;t like the lawyers that try and do that....
She did tell me sometime ago that she saw some lawyers back in June. So this is where most of this thinking comes from.

Makes me want to jump on that.... while she is thinking this way.....but that is not ultimaltly what I want so....

She came back because the youngest left his headphones in her car. I was unloading groceries. So she gave the boys a kiss, I said hey wheres mine? She said stick you head in here, so I gave her a peck on the cheek. Then she showed me a book she bought on marriage that she was reading. I told her I needed to get the groceries up and turned and left. She thanked me for talking to her as she left.
Man, I get frustrated with her and mad but when I see her I just can't be. What a smile and beauty. Anyway, I was strong and did not hang out.... confident and assured.

Sorry - I don't agree with GC (but love ya, GC). Your boys are old enough to realize that something not right is going on. They deserve the truth from at least one parent. I think it is a HUGE mistake not to let them know the things that are going on to break up their family.

Believer,

I not sure what the benefit would be to tell them. So they know the truth, what does that do for them? What does that do for any chance for reconcilliation?
My WW is an adult survivor of childhhod sexual abuse. She is EXTREMELY sensitive to how others perceive her.
In one of our big blow-ups, this was at the core of it. This is the one in which she now says she should have left.

I was sitting with my youngest boy, WW comes downstairs and starts to tell and show us a scrape she got on her ankle. I joke with my son, "you ever notice that when a guy has a hurt he says nothing, but when a girl does they want to tell and show you?" WW gets visibly upset, tells me I have no compassion, storms out. Yougest boy says "boy, that was weird.", me "yea, I know, I think Mom is mad at me".
A few hours later she returns. She tells me she is going to have to have a talk with the boys to un-do the damage I am doing to them. I had to tell her what the boy said, we were joking around.
Anyway, you get the idea, hypersensitive to anyone not accepting her. So, If I do expose to the boys, I feel that the hurt to her would be so much deeper than the normal WW.I think it wouild be dangerous ground for me, not only for reconcilliation thoughts, but vindictive divorce lawyers too.
Glad I thought this one out! Thanks for you input.

Buddy, if you know there's an affair, you should tell your sons. And you should not lie to them if they ask.

Believer, he should only spread information he knows is factual. All over the world, people are doing damage to each other based on things they think are true, but that are not actually true.

Rob, what your wife is doing:

She's trying to get a divorce going so she can feel less guilty when the affair goes into high gear. (She may plan to not get things rolling until the divorce is done, but she'll never make it.) If she doesn't sleep with OM until she's already got things moving, then to her, it's not as bad. In that case, she's already "emotionally divorced" you and it's just a matter of time and red tape.

If your marriage ends, do you mean to be good friends with your wife? Do you mean to smile and wave when she and OM pull up to the house to get the boys?

None of this would be happening if it weren't for the affair, Rob. No doubt your W disagrees, but trust me, it wouldn't.

GC

GC, your not painting a very pretty picture.
So, as I see it, I have two options:
1. Get a divorce now while she is still feeling guilty and not vindictive to have the least amount of damage for me and the boys.
2. Wait it out to see if and when it ends.

Any other options?

MB'ers..... I am thinking of sending this message to my WW.
What do you think? Help me!

Honey,

I have been thinking so much about our situation. Following is how I see where you are at.

1. You do not love me anymore.
2. You do not have “feelings” for me.
3. You do not think you could ever have sex with me again.
4. You have “emotionally divorced” me.
5. You have left our marriage and family knowing that the most probable outcome is divorce.
6. You cannot or will not let me know your plans or intentions.
7. You cannot explain what “working on myself” means to our relationship.
8. You had an emotional affair on the verge of physical before discovery.
9. You will not commit to no contact ever with OM.
10. You will not commit to working on our marriage.
11. You will not commit to marriage counseling.
12. You have discussed divorce and property division with lawyers.
13. You have a lawyer on retainer.

I keep looking for a shred of hope for us to reconcile our marriage but the path that you continue on is leaving me with very little.
I have expressed to you so many times that I want to keep our marriage and family together. I am willing to do the work that it would take. I still am.
However, if all of the above issues are still true for you I think the outcome is quite obvious.

I did love you, I do love you.

I feel that I am at a crossroads.
1. Push this issue as with my above letter. I sometimes just want the stress and not knowing to end.
2. Set a time frame and wait to see....I'm thinking through Dec.

Please any input, thoughts?

I have been thinking so much about our situation. Following is how I see where you are at.

...

Some of the rules of thumb people have at MB...

Don't do "mind-reading" - i.e. telling your partner what she thinks.

Don't try to educate your partner.

Don't use logic to try and persuade your partner.

DO NOT use desperate-sounding language like "I keep looking for a shred of hope", or any emotionally loaded stuff about how heartbroken, committed, dedicated, or forgiving you are. None of that stuff ever makes any difference. Or at least, if it does, I've never seen it.

DO show her compassion when you can. Being compassionate is not the same as taking abuse. Nor is it the same as shielding someone from the consequences of her actions.

DO show strength and confidence.

Rob, it's like you say: your choices w/r/t the marriage are limited right now. You can try to do plan A from a distance. If you do, do it for a very short time. You can do plan B right now. You can serve her with divorce papers. You can do a million other things. The Harley stuff is just one way of dealing with a terrible problem.

Are you safe financially? You have to look out for yourself right now. She'll hurt you to make things easier for herself. She doesn't have any empathy for you.

She expects you to swallow every spoonful of sh*t she feeds you, and if you're like most people, eventually you're not going to be able to do that any more. You need to plan for this stuff.

Finally, you absolutely have to get advice from someone other than little old me.

GC

GC and others helping me. I have a plan....maybe not a good one, but a plan.
It is day 5 of separation so I have been stressing with the unknown. That is why I have been floundering.
The plan is to take this situation in steps. I will not do anything for four weeks. I will wait and see how she enjoys her new life. This is not a plan B, but a modified version. I will not instigate contact, I will keep any communication to the business of the kids and or separation agreement.
If on 10-7 no changes are made in our situation, I will review and make the next decision.
In the meantime I am a single dad taking care of the household, boys, and my job.
I know she is stressing as the oldest boy talked to her again this morning. He is being very vocal about being unhappy with what she is doing. I know this has to eat on her. She was always such a loving Mom, that is one of the surprises with infidelity. How can the emotions of the A make a loving Mom willing to split from her kids? Bizare!
Anyway, how does the plan sound?

I like the sound of this. I am very skeptical about the ability of a man to use typical "plan A" methods for "wooing" his wife when she lacks any feeling for him, particularly if she has moved away. I think that when you have a WW who has walked away, just about anything you do to reach out to her is likely to smack of desperation and to lower your value as she perceives it.

If you show courage, strength, compassion, confidence, backbone

-- and if you're a GREAT father all the while --

then I think you have a better chance of making inroads.

Unfortunately, you can't bet on her at all. Just on yourself.

GC

If you show courage, strength, compassion, confidence, backbone

Ok, I'm off to see the Wizard!

Feel better just having a "plan". I've always been a good dad so no problems there.

Thanks GC....don't know why others aren't pitchin in but hey, thats OK. I've read a few other post with situations similar and the advice is there.

Rob,
There are a number of different things going on at the same time. Or at least it's a good way to look at it.

The first is what your W is doing.
She's your W. You love her. You want her back.

On the other hand, she has choices. She won't go to jail for what she is doing, and she really can leave if she wants.

You have recognize she has choices. You have to give them to her. Gray is right about not trying to reason with her. You can't reason with people who are unreasonable.
If she starts to come around, THEN and only then can you start to reason.

What she is doing is one of the things. Just one.

The second is what the kids are thinking, and saying, and feeling.
You should be taking really good care of them. Not bad mouthing their mom, but not sugar coating it either. If they ask, tell the truth.

"Your mother has been having an affair with another man. I love her, and I want her back, but I may not always feel this way. I look at it like she is lost, and we need to love her, and help her find her way back to her family. You can talk to me any time about this. I hope she finds her way back, but you and I will be fine no matter what. We are strong, we can get through this. Lets hold on to each other and be strong. We can do this."

OK?
THat's just for example. You need to tell it as you feel it in your own words, but tell the truth.

Don't cover for her with the kids. I assume you can produce proof if needed. Be careful with that, but don't let her get away with lies.

The third thing is you.
You are hurting. The pain might go away for a while, but it always comes back. This is in your thoughts nearly all the time, it won't leave you alone.

Your job is to prepare yourself for whatever happens. WHATEVER HAPPENS.

Gray can tell you it might get worse before it gets better. NO MATTER WHAT, THIS WILL NOT BE EASY.

You can't work on her, or change her mind. Plan A is a plan to stop the A, and also have you look as good to her as you possibly can so if the A does end, or she starts coming to her senses, you will look attractive to her. Many WS's tell us they acted like they didn't see, but they really did.

So, you plan A, and you prepare YOU.

What is attractive to her?

Someone who begs or whines?
(not saying you are doing that, lets go on.)

What is attractive is someone who laughs, who is strong. Soneone who looks good, acts confident. Someone who goes on with his life and lives it to the fullest. I don't mean bull riding, and skydiving (with apologies to the songwriter), but I mean you enjoy your self, and your time with your children. You go to the games. You cheer, and yell. You take them to things, you are the life of the party.

Throw your self into the transformation. Imagine what you want to be like, then live it. Pretend if you have to for a while, but it will come to you.

I agree with talking if she calls, but not chasing her.
Remember to be polite. Don't use sarcasim. If you have love in your voice whenever you talk to her, she will hear it differently than if you have venom.

Separate these three things in your mind. Work on each of them. Write your plan for each.

Vow that no matter what happens, you will live a rich and fulfiling life, and that you will be happy. Show you believe it by how you live each day. Your kids take their cues from you. Be an example. Be the light house of your family.

And for sure, don't pick your nose in public.

SS

Gray, you were writing while I was, and you did a good job, in so many fewer words.

Rob,
It is my opinion that most people make their own luck by how they live their lives.

Good luck.

SS

awesome post, GC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I'm off to see the Wizard!

I forgot humor. Check.

I've always been a good dad so no problems there.

Be "one louder" good. They're going to remember the things you tell them from this time--and the ways you handle the chaos--especially well. It could be a real meaningful time for them.

G

Okay...

gc asked us 2 come here and chime in, so I've come here and I'm about 2 chime in.

Fasten your seat belts and shoulder straps. Put your helmet on.





Why the he11 didn't you call either Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers when you first learned of the rental house????

Before you finish reading my post, call the number on the "counseling center" page and make an appointment.

That you've been trying 2 "solve this" without professional help for this length of time just leaves me flabbergasted. And believe me, it takes a lot 2 gast my flabber.

SNOOP! You seem 2 need 2 know the truth (my gawd, you must be human or someting), so go find it out. If you need 2 hire a P.I., then bloody do it.

I'd be willing 2 bet large sums of graycloud's money (sorry gc, but you said somewhere you had $100) that her night out with the girlfriend was a night in with the OM. I hope I'm wrong, but every such move by the WS, followed quickly by a night out with the girls, that I've read about on here and 3 other 4ums I've seen such stories has been an alibi 2 cover for an active affair.

When you do find out the truth (assuming the A is verified 2 be continuing), tell your sons the truth. If you don't learn anything, they still need 2 know the truth as you understand it - that she was at least having an EA that was about 2 go PA when you discovered it a 2ple months ago.


Remember, it isn't the TRUTH that hurts anybody, it's the LIES. And you don't want 2 be party 2 keeping secrets, because you don't want your boys 2 grow up thinking that it's okay 2 do what their mom is doing because you didn't blow it wide open. You don't want them 2 have affairs with married high school sweethearts that they find on classmates.com in 20 years because their mom thought it was okay and you didn't make it clear that it wasn't.


Same answer. It's not telling the truth that will hobble reconciliation, it's the AFFAIR.


Well, then she's an adult, isn't she? She can make choices, can't she? Why would anyone with such a past choose 2 have an affair?? Doesn't make sense, but these sitches never do.


She's been grasping at straws for any excuse 2 blameshift this on2 you and 2 shed some of her guilt for her behavior. Trouble is, you've been helping her without realizing it. You need 2 pinch off the DJs and LBs (even your humor accounts are sarcastic, which have no place in one of these sitches).


By NO MEANS send this letter:


A HUGE Disrespectful Judgment! It's bad enough that you're assuming you know where she's at (remember, when you 'assume' you make an '[censored]' out of 'u' and 'me'). Don't tell her this. It's her business "figuring this out." And it's your business not dwelling on it.


I don't even believe this, but in any case you certainly shouldn't say this.


Same as '1.'


same as 1 and 2.


They all say this. My W did (in fact, she hasn't said she's 'emotionally remarried me' 2 this day, whatever that would mean). Don't remind her of it. It's just giving her empty justification for her poor choices.


If you don't want a DV, don't ever talk about it, even if she brings it up. Respond (rather than react) with "I feel" statements, like "I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel that we can make our marriage better than it ever was, with the right help. I intend 2 fight for my marriage."


Since you will in all probability be in plan B soon, where you will not be letting her know of your plans or intentions, you will need 2 let go of your need 2 know what she's thinking or doing all the time. Definitely don't voice this stuff 2 her.


...and the rest of this... I realized I'm saying the same things over again... suffice it 2 say, DON'T say stuff like this or send emails like this 2 her, EVER.

I've got more. When I think of it I'll post.

-ol' 2long

More advice please.

My ww called the other night to talk to my sons. The oldest boy was very upset. Came to me telling me how he can't hardly stand to talk to her etc. I comforted him as much as possible. He then called her and had a 30 minute conversation. Afterwards I went to him and he was crying. So we talked more and tried to help him as much as I could. I always end these conversations with stuff like how we love her.
The next day she started text messaging questions about what I have said to my son. I finally called her on the 2nd set of questions. She was upset, she thinks that I am influeincing him, basically blameshifting.
One of her issues is that I had a business trip set up in the 2nd half of october to Asia for two weeks. The boy is dead set against going to her house, has been vocal about that from day 1. I told him I would cancel my trip and not make him go stay with her. He related this to her but added that I was doing this for the family while she is being selfish.
So she thinks I am keepin the boys from her, she talked about parental aleination....??? I told her that it is not her, but the separation and splitting of the family that is making him upset.
Anway, she wanted to know why I didn't ask her to stay at the house for those two weeks, that she felt like I was keeping her away from the boys. I told her I did not know this was an option and frankly I had not thought of it.

So thinking about it, maybe that would be a good thing? Have her stay at our home for those two weeks? I am thinking of offering this to her.

What does everyone think of this? Would this be a positive thing or not...??????

Your boys are 15, and 17. They are old enough to know what they want. I bet they will change and soften after some time goes by. For now they see her in a bad light - but can you blame them?

When she says "you are keeping the boys from me" tell her the truth.
Tell her:
" We are a family, we all lived together in the same house BUT YOU LEFT. This is a direct result of YOUR CHOICE TO LEAVE US. Don't blame me for what you chose to do. THIS IS NOT A CASE OF ALEINATION, IT'S A CASE OF ABONDONMENT. YOU ABONDONED YOUR OWN FAMILY. I welcome you back with open arms if you want to come and work on the marriage. If not, the boys and I will do the best we can. I will never bad mouth you to the boys, but I won't lie to them either. They may still love you, and I hope they do, but they don't have to like what you are doing, or accept it. Right now, I encourage them to see you, but in a few years both of them will be adults. Once they are 18, they can stay away if that's what they choose. (added note - in some states, they can choose by the time they are 14, you should check it out.) You are free - you can choose what you want to do, but so are they. It might be well to think about that."


You would have to use your own words and say it the way you would normally say things. Don't shield her from the consnquences of her actions.

If the boys are old enough to choose, then let them choose. They are feeling abused. They have been abandoned. Don't force them to face their abuser if they don't have to, and don't want to.

SS