Noodle and rprynne,

I agree with you two. The science part does take the magic out of the loving feelings if you think too much about it. But if you can use the science to save your love for your WS, or to save your M, or to get your WS to understand why the OP isn't really who they thought they were, then isn't it worth it?

I'm not too wild about the idea of trying to explain love. It kind of reminds me of when I found out about Santa Claus. Nothing was quite the same after that. Now, since the A, I have the same feelings about my M a lot of the time.

In the end, for me, explaining some of this stuff to my FWH was what actually led him to think and read some things. Then, he finally started thinking about what he had done, and why things ended up where they did with the OW. It was only after that when he "got it".

Now, we are in recovery. I'm thinking that Santa can come back. Somehow, I keep thinking he will....because somewhere in there, I still believe.

Love is like that. If the spark is there! That's the part science can't explain. I kind of like it like that.

SB

Science and magic are the same things. Science that is not understood IS magic. Magicians know this and is how they operate. To the remote rain forest peoples, a Polaroid snapshot is MAGIC. Likewise various "bar tricks" used to dupe poor bartenders and patrons out of free drinks (I know, I've done it) When we abandon logic and rely on emotions and what we FEEL, without understanding there are scientific principals involved, it "feels" like magic.

Love isn't "magic", does have an affect on "feelings", but isn't becuase something "magical" happened. We don't have to choose to love someone because there was a "feeling" that something magical was taking place. We also don't choose to stop loving someone because of magic.

Affairs happen because we think something magical is involved. We just can't help ourselves.

Isn't that the whole point of what this site is about. Love can be built. It can be nurtured. It can be created, from scratch, if need be. That's how affair partners find their "magic" and blame it on kismet!

Sorry, just my 2 cents...

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I guess I'm just not there.

First off, whoever said Santa Claus wasn't real, thanks a lot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I was crushed by hearing that.

I get the science, I get the naivte of the past.

But at what point in adopting the MB principles are you no longer yourself? Isn't the whole point of intimacy being loved by someone as you are?

OP's are very good at putting up the facade, playing to the WS needs. That's the fantasy. All BS's try to tell WS's this is the case. Eventually the facade will come down and you'll see your left with no intimacy. Everyone loses.

It seems to me that much of the advice to the BS is to also put up this facade. Yes, we learn it, yes it becomes a habit, yes it makes you a better person or better S. At some point we are no longer who we were.

Well, that appears to say who we were was not worthy of love. I would not characterize myself as having been perfect, but certainly worthy of love.

What I want is my WW to be "in love" with who I was and who I can be, not just me in the facade of an OP playing to her EN's. Surely there is someone out there who would accept me as I am.

Am I the only one that this troubles? Am I nuts?

RP,

Did you read the article I referenced? LOL. I was thinking about your thread when I read it.

It was called the science of love. LOL

rp,

I get what you're saying.

That to engage a Plan A, for example, you sort of compromise who you are in order to manipulate a WS into returning into a loving place with you. Using a scientific method to recover a loving feeling for you. An "artificial" means to recover what once was "naturally occurring".

I agree completely.

But add that scientifically, that natural spark that you had with your spouse still remains, or no amount of scientific means could recover that love. So maybe your activities are "artificial", but the underlying feelings are "natural"?

There are studies out there that suggest that feelings affect brain chemicals, brain chemicals affect feelings, but that we can also act "as if" we feel a certain way and the brain chemicals actually change.

For example, in the lab, we might have a subject whose chemistry we wanted to study to see if a rise occurs under a certain emotion. So we study the patient under control (neutral emotion) and measure the chemical in the brain. Then, we have the patient act "as if" they were, say, happy, and measure the chemical, then act "as if" they were sad, and measure it, and so on.

Several studies out there show a definite rise in serotonin and a change in depression ratings for patients who are charged to act "as if they are happy". Other studies show that exercise is better than antidepressants in controlling depression, and actually changes the brain chemistry more effectively.

So the question you ask is whether or not we are artificially changing ourselves and if that is falsely making our WS fall back in love with someone who isn't really us anymore.

Wow. You ask hard questions. I think it depends on whether or not you have made permanent changes in yourself, for one. Whether or not you believe those changes were important, and valid changes that needed to be made. Changes that you yourself feel that you want and need to make an lifelong investment in. People do change.

As for me, I know that this entire A has made changes in me that I never thought would have occurred. I am stronger now, more self-reliant, more focused on things that I feel are inwardly-directed. Prior to my H's A, my priorities were on what other people's needs were, never my own. I lost who I was. Now, I look much more at what I need, and am sure that my ENs are being met, and that our M is being attended to - before the needs of the extended family. He is much the same way. Those changes are permanent - so maybe what the Plan A entailed isn't so much "artificial" me, but a truly changed me who seduced my H back into the M. In the process, I got back a much changed H.

SB