Brownhair,
We no longer sleep together. Around 8 August he told me that he does not feel close to me and that he did not like being around me, why does that sound suspiciously like the "I love you but..." speach?

Since then he will not touch me in any manner, if he accidently brushes against me he says "I'm sorry" moves away quickly like he got scorched and leaves me alone where ever I happen to be. I think it is just part of his PA style for the most part. He knows how much I need affection, no sex, no affection, no touching, no hugging.

I guess I will bite the bullet further tonight and see why he will not accept a hug from me. To be honest I am terrified of the answer. Maybe I will ask him for a hug instead of asking if he would like one. I am just worn out today. Please if you have any ideas on how to breech this subject with him in a non LB manner I am all ears and a quick study.
Thanks Brownhair

GS,
Wow, unless you guys had a BIG fight over something..
This is very strange.
You have absolutely no idea why he would be acting like this?
It's just "how he feels", out of the blue?

If that's the case, I do think you need to deal with this, and not let it get further out of hand.

I'm not the world's biggest expert on this..
But what I would do..
Is be as calm and open as I can possibly be..
and tell him you need to talk to him.

The trick is to be firm but not agressive.
It means you need to be ready for any sort of answer.
Try reading "I'm OK, you're OK" - it gives good tips.
What I particulary remembered is the broken record technique.
It means that you keep repeating in a gentle (non-sarcastic) manner what you need.
Here's an example (somewhat worse case scenario <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).
Try choosing a good moment, not when he's almost out of the door.

You: "H, I would like to talk to you."
H: "I don't feel like talking."
You: "I hear what you are saying. But it's very important to me that we talk."
H: "Didn't you hear me? I don't feel like it."
You: "I understand. When would be a better time?"
H: "Like - never?"
You: "I can hear that you don't want to talk to me. But we really need to talk."
H: "Oh, whatever."
You: "When would be a good time for you?"
H: "Oh, *$!, if you insist!"
You: "Thanks. So, what I wanted to talk to you about is why you don't want to get close to me. Could you please tell me why that is?"

You get the point - you keep repeating the same thing, "we need to talk", you acknowledge what he says "I hear you", "I understand", (which isn't the same as saying "I agree"!).
Keeping calm is VERY important.
Don't get into his drama - it's just a way of avoiding a real talk.
If he can get you angry or hurt, the conversation is over and he doesn't have to face you.

Brownhair,
I will fill in some gaps...we have been up and down ever since he had his A. I have no trust in him and he lies, over NOTHING. For instance just this past weekend he told me that the work computer of the other guy that works in his office got fried due to a software upgrade that was pused onto the computers over the LAN. I was sitting there thinking hmmm how could he know that when the other guy has been off work for two weeks? They do not have access to each other's computers, that is a fact. I know the guy was not at work because I have talked to him in an attempt to find out wtf is going on, this guy supports me btw, and he told me himself nothing was/is wrong with his computer.


I'll start back in April:
We had a trip back to the states planned for June, my D was graduating from HS. Mid April H starts treating me like I don't exist. Using one of his famous phrases "It's not always about me" I kept plugging along for a week or so. We went out to dinner one night and out of the blue he tells me that I will not be going with him to Oregon when we go to the states. Floored me and I will admit it hurt my feelings badly hearing this coupled with the fact that he had been treating me like crap (same treatment while he was in his A) So, instead of knee jerk reaction I took a few mins to gather my thoughts then asked him why. He said that it was too expensive and he could not afford a ticket for me. So being an idiot, I said that's not a problem, I will pay for my own! HE got very ugly in the face and said YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, YOU ARE NOT GOING!" I'll never forget how that made me feel, ashamed of him and ugly. That is honest because my gut was telling me that he was once again lying to me. No clue why.

Slogged along until late May and getting extremely irritated that I was not getting my #1EN met by him, affection, I see this in hind sight.

I am not proud of myself for the next part but...I was having a hard time (still do) learning to live without my kids and my D was graduating. Horrible time. I tried to talk to him a couple of times but he was not much support. One night I blew a gasket TOTALLY. Don't even remember what the heck all was said but he accused me of never being able to make a decision. I was beyond pissed off, my feelings were hurt, I was missing my kids terribly and the man that I love was not supporting me, it felt like he was attacking me trying to get me to bahave ugly. I accomodated him to the hilt.

I took off my wedding band and yelled at him that I can make decisions and that I am through being married to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


By the first week of June we sweep more crap under the rug kind of make up and we head to the states. We had more SF there in one week than we have had at home in a two month period, no kidding.

We return to Germany, my D comes over for a couple weeks, H is very removed was suppsoed to meet us in Paris and tells me at the last minute he would not be meeting us. I was hurt and it felt sneaky as ****** to me (lack of trust showing through). My D and I return home and he is cold and angry. I asked him what was going on. H stated that he is emotionally and physically exausted and that he could not meet us in Paris and why the he!! could I not have told him that I understand and tell him to take care of himself instead of getting upset because he was not going to meet us. I took what he said to heart and I apologized to him. Kinda patched things up once again...

Limping along....Early July his OD, SIL, and the three GKs come for a two week visit. We had a blast and I really enjoyed it, got to spend a lot fo time with his D who I really like. H's oldest grandson stayed with us while everyone returned to US. GS was attending soccer camp in Eng. The weekend before H was supposed to fly GS to Eng he pulled a muscle in his leg. H told me the next day that I may have to take GS to Eng. That was it he did not say another word to me about it. The day before they were supposed to fly up I asked H what time are you guys leaving? He went through the roof, told me that I was taking him, very angry. I told H exactly what he said to me, that he never said another word to me about flying up. H took him seemed to enjoy the trip and things were ok here at home. H picked up GS in ENG a week later and 5 days later we put him on a plane home to US.

I felt the urge to talk to H about missing him, I missed spending time with just him. I truly enjoyed having everyone here but I missed my time with him. I did mention it to him and it was like someone flipped a switch inside of him..instant cold chilly.

Couple days later everything appeared to be ok. Two weeks later is when I got hit with the "I don't feel close to you, I don't like being around you" right before I had to leave for work in the morning.


I was sick feeling, tried to give him some space but I am not one to let things like that be said and then not talk about it. Two days later I asked him if we could talk and it was nasty in an instant...that is when he said he is f'ing DONE! Moved out of the bedroom.
Here we are.

I had no idea how much damage an A could do not just to a marriage but to the BS, I thought I had learned that during my 1st M but it was nothing like this at all.

We did it to ourselves, both of us were willing to sweep it under the rug. During May, June, July I LBd all over the place, horribly.

I have been trying to not concentrate on where H is in his head, trying to get myself on firm ground so I don't waffle. I do not want a D and I am standing firm in that. We need help, he is resistant to it. H did say, when I talked to Steve Harley last week, that he is not willing to talk to him at this point. Funny, it is always cut and dried with him and now he changed.

My fingers are aching from the typing, I will make an attempt to dig into my behaviours that have caused my share of this.

Thanks Brownhair for reading, puts a lump in my throat.
I want to apologize to you also. I have been so wrapped up in my own misery that I did not really see that about your miscarriages. My heart goes out to you, I know that grief.

Hi GS,
give your fingers some rest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm used to it - I type all day for my work.

What you write about how your H behaves look a golf course to me - so many flags.
If he's not having an A, and this is all due to PA stuff, then I would really, really advise to go into counseling.
It seems the two of you are into a routine of you pushing him away, him not being affectionate, you getting irrated because you're not getting affection from him, you pushing him away etc.
Does he consider you the stronger person in your M?

I am not sure if he considers me the stronger person, the more emotional for sure. To top it off I am having men-o-pause stuff going on and it is driving me bats**t.

Earlier I told H I was going to meet some friends for dinner, was me myself and I, as I was leaving I told him I'd see him later.

On my way to getting something to eat I got to thinking poor $hithead, no friends to go to dinner with, sitting home m-bating to porn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Made me smile for a few mins even though it was not a positive thought.

I have decided that I will not longer slog through anything. I am going to work my way through this slowly and steadily and get myself back to the place I was when I began dating him. I miss how positive I used to be.

Hang in there, Growthspurt.

Keep reading these boards. There are plenty of examples of people who are in similar sitch's, as you are, who recovered their marriages after A's. They are VERY encouraging to read.

I'm so sorry for all you're going through right now, and pray that your husband wakes up to see what a loving wife he has.

I think you should keep snooping though. I think there is something you can buy to install in your husband's computer to see what he's up to. I'm sure another poster can tell you what it is called. You can put a GPS in your H's car to see where he's been.

In the mean time, concentrate more on yourself. Eat well, excersise, and get your rest. Do the 180 too. And hug the heck out of your dogs for affection. I know it's not the same as getting your affection from your H, but it is something.

Keep your head up!

Thanks Marshmallow, Staying positive is very hard right now. I always put on a smiley face when H is around though.

Funny you say that about hugging the dogs. We each had a dog when we got married and his dog loves me to death. He does this funny thing when he greets me, kind of mouths my chin. I get lots of slobber but I don't mind it. My dog wants to sleep with me and I can't let him. He is a snuggle bug but very stubborn so I have to set boundaries with him and stick to them. Sometimes it is hard but it's for the best.

Weird, I am seeing a relation between the stubborn dog and my H <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have a huge knot in my stomach right now. Just got home from work. H leaves Sat. I have to admit it will be nice to come home and not have the knot when I turn down the street.

It has gotten easier living like room mates, he won't eat what I cook, think he may be afraid I will poison him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was tired last night and went to bed early. Stopped and bought a couple of books on my way home today so I have something to get my mind off of all of this. I think today was the best day I have had so far, wasn't thinking about our marriage every 5 mins.

I know the flags are there. Funny you mention a golf course because he lied about going there too. Found out later he was at the movies. I am so fed up with the lies. He tells them, then it is days before I find out the truth and too late to call him on it.

I agree with your post, the pushing away. He was very affectionate, couldn't seem to get enough up until his A. Then nothing.

I forogt, H said he would fill out the EN questionnaire. I don't know if he has done it yet. He leaves Sat for 10 days. How do I ask him without LBing if he is going to fill it out?

Say, "You really made me happy when you said you'd fill out that questionaire the other day. Did you get a chance to, yet?"

Thanks marshmallow! I was very calm and told him that I was very glad when he said he'd fill it out and I was wondering if he had. H said he hadn't and apologized for not doing it yet. He said that he would fill it out before he leaves.

I had an errand to run and when I came back he had it and looked like he was fillign it out. I just smailed and him then went to the bedroom to watch a movie and to write about it.

I had an appointment with Steve Harley for tonight but they had to cancel it. I rescheduled for next week. H won't be here but that is okay. I am not sure if H would talk to anyone at this point.
I feel better, it sucks how we take the least bit of positive and cling to it like a life raft.

I make every attempt to stay positive around him but man is it tough somettimes

Today at work my assistant manager and I put everything onto the September calendar. I have volunteered for a couple of things during my own time and I put them on there too. It is going to be a very very busy month.

My assistant knows what H and I are going through, well she knows my part in it. She laughed at all the stuff going on and told me it is good, I will be too busy to be miserable because I won't have time and it will make H wonder what all I am doing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for dropping by my post.

Hope you're doing ok. Is your H gone yet? If he is willing to fill out the EN questionaire it could be a good sign.

Enjoy your 10 days alone spoil yourself.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just came on to post the latest.

At one point during all of this I asked H for money so I could move out. I still have the check he gave me, no intention of moving out.
This he asked me if I was going to move out while he is gone and I told him no. I just can't do it, it goes against what I want which is a fullfilling marriage with him, no I didn't say that to him, yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


H filled out the En and told me that he was surprised at his lack fo communication with me (trying to remember exactly what he said but my brain is dead right now)

H asked me if I had filled one out and I told him yes and I asked him if he would like to see it, he said yes.
We are going to take the time while he is gone to absorb what the other wrote and discuss it when he returns.

I am trying so hard to stay level headed it's hard because I see this as progress.

Off to the airport soon.