Pep,

WSs are not the same as psychotic murderers who claim to love their children and kill them.

I remember that scene from "Unfaithful" and what I saw was a mother so caught up in addiction of her affair that she tragically neglected her child. I was disgusted by the scene. It was heartwrenching and I had zero pity for her remorse. But I also never thought for a minute that she didn't love her child....even though I found her actions unloving and abusive. And I can't imagine that her child would benefit from believing that his mother didn't love him because she was disgustingly distracted by her sexual pursuits. She was a BAD mother....but a mother that still loved her child. Most WSs are bad parents....but the potential to be GOOD parents is not lost and their love for the children and their spouse is not lost either. If it were....there would be no MB.

give me your definition of prolonged abandonment ... I don't have one! I never thought about it.

Do you think (I do) that repeated short abandonments are at least as damaging to a child as a permanent abandonment?

Yes...LOL....I think so and yes, I think children are entitled to their feelings. What I meant was similar to what you said about "validating, or not validating" their feelings when they express beliefs. We can "validate"...or we can "explore" other honest possibilities with that child. When a mother yells at her child for instance...it doesn't necessarily mean that she doesn't love them, even though yelling is not a loving way to respond. She might be angry at something else, she might be tired, sick etc.

TOTALLY agree

Pep

I do too, but what I don't understand is how telling a child that their parent doesn't love them is helpful.

How and why would you do this?

I think I am missing something.

Wouldn't it be better to say "daddy does love you, but he isn't capable of acting like it right now"?

then to say

"Daddy doesn't love you right now, but perhaps someday when he ends his affair he will?"

or

"Daddy is never coming back, so he doesn't love you"

and we are talking about the average person who does love their children but are caught up in an affair, not pedofile child murderers or abusers, right? Using an extreme like that is not helpful because it is too extreme.

My dad was an acute chronic lifelong alcoholic, but he did love me.

This comparison would be better, if you liken affairs to addictions and not insane monsters, in my opinion.

*doh*



I did not say that ... my point (if I have one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) is that saying "I love my child" ain't worth squat if the behavior is hurtful

here's another *doh* comment I am gonna make .... that crazy lady in Texas who murdered her 5 kids in the bathtub one after the other ... she did it because she loved them !!! alotta good her love did those poor little angles

*doh*

i know it's off topic Star* you don't gotta say it

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

and this is precisely why it is imperative that children have the truth, so they can make the distintion free of confusion.

My parent loves me, but can't act it right now BECAUSE they are in an affair.

Weaver~

HI

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

What I think Pep....is that each person here has to decide independently when it's time to help *their* child (in their situation) who feels abandoned (short/long term) deal with that issue. In the short term (during the addictive phase of the affair when there is still hope that the WS will come out of the fog and return home) talk that the WS is "acting" in an unloving way, may be more honest and healing than validating that the WS doesn't "feel" love for the child. It's a distinction that may help the child to understand when feelings vs actions don't match up and are so confusing.

When there is no hope that the WS will come home, has truly abandoned the family, skips visitation, doesn't pay child support, or they leave their family in poverty to wine and dine the OP....that's a different story. There's no way under those circumstances to convince anyone....least of all a child....that this person "loves" them in any meaningful way.

This is an extremely important topic.

So thank you Star*.

And hi Pep!

I have to throw in my 2 cents. Did I see it right where there were some suggestions children could be used to put pressure on the WS?? I HOPE NOT. The last thing you want to do is make a child feel like they are a part of the reason the parent is leaving.

It's like a piece I read from a book, a girl sees a man with a dog. She walkes up to the man because she wants to pet the dog. The dog's owner exposes himself to the girl and she runs home, tells her parents who call the police. The police take the girl back to the dog who is tied to a fence and ask, "is this the dog that was with the man?" The dog is looking rather sad and lonely separated from his owner and tied to the fence. The little girl reluctantly says, "Yes, that is the dog." She now feels guilty she has just punished the dog, because the dog is not with it's owner any more. How sad the dog looks she thinks, what have I done by saying, yes that was the dog. TRUE STORY paraphrased somewhat from Jennifer O'Neill's autobiography.

My point, children don't always emotionally react the same way as adults. You have to be careful with what you say and ask. Jennifer was right in identifying the dog, because it identified the man who exposed himself to her. But in her mind she punished the dog for doing what was right.

Yes weaver! I can imagine telling my child "Chere, your father loves you, and I'm so sorry that he's so selfish right now and he's too messed up to show it. I know he's hurt you....and I won't make excuses for him. One day, I hope he'll ask for your forgiveness, because he's NOT being a loving parent or a good role model for you. But you need to know....it's not about you. It's not about whether he loves you or not....it's about his ability to truly love in a way that matches his actions. It's about poor choices, poor character, selfish priorities....but YOU...are are the most lovable person I know. If he walks away from you....he's the stupidest man I know."

I wouldn't try to convince the child that the parent having an affair loves them ... that's the affairee's burden!

I think that may be the greatest difference between our positions Star .... if the child feels unloved & abandoned, then for all practical purposes, as far as the kid goes, they ARE !

I am not saying (nor is anyone else,I think) that the faithful parent should tell the child "Daddy does not love you."

But, if the child says "I don't think Daddy loves me."

I'd say ... ask him if he does.

it's their relationship ... let them do the work.

Pep

I think you're right pep...because I'm FAR less worried about whose burden it is...then the wellfare of my child!! I don't give a rat's [censored] whose responsibility it is when my child is weeping and broken because their STUPID and selfish parent can't see past the end of their privates.


pep....I know you love children are not suggesting that a parent doesn't help them....but the idea that the wayward spouse is the only one who has a responsibility to help a child through the chaos of affairs....is just crazy....because THEY are crazy and crummy parents at that time. EVENTUALLY....YES...when they wake up...they will ultimately have the responsibility of rebuilding trust with that child.....but I'm not about to stand by and let my child suffer needlesslessly because I have a crack addict on my hands.

And if they feel that way....you can BET that I'm going to do every thing in my power to help them feel loved!! Yes....even by their other parent. I can't make a wayward parent stop acting like a @ss....but I can help my child keep from internalizing and personalizing feelings of being unloved. I'm going to help them try to understand why messed up affair fogged parents can act in such unloving ways and how it isn't about love. Affairs are not about love...they are about fantasy. I'm going to tell them how lovable they are and how no matter how sick the WS is right now, the person he REALLY doesn't love...is not the child...it's HIMSELF. Life is messy....the most honest thing I can tell my child is that sometimes people are messed up and it isn't the child's fault and it isn't because they're unlovable. I'm going to love my child more than I hate my wayward spouse.




Sorry...we're never going to agree on this. Children don't have all the relationship skills....and I intend to do as much work as I am able to given the constraint that I simply do not have the power to rebuild trust....only the wayward can do that.

“But I also never thought for a minute that she didn't love her child....even though I found her actions unloving and abusive.”

I read several other statements akin to this, and when I read this one I jumped to reply. Sorry if this was addressed in the intervening posts.

Star*, you and I (and apparently a great many others around here) have a very different definition of love.

The actions of the WS referred to in the above are neither feeling love the emotion, nor acting love the verb, nor caring, nor protecting, nor….. You name any association with love you want; it is not there in the WS.

Can they get it back? Maybe.

But the child remembers. Forever.

It is a form of child or spouse abuse.

I’m sure you think abusers love their victims, too.

But they don’t – not by any definition of love I accept.

"This comparison would be better, if you liken affairs to addictions and not insane monsters, in my opinion."

hmmmm, this is pertinent to my sitch. What if the affair has gone on, through multiple D-Days, for ten years or more?

When in fact does a WS become a monster? Is there a means test?

ed: They certainly act like monsters.


Thanks for this thread, BTW. It is helping me sort a few things out.

Let’s consider the ramifications of this statement:

"...but I'm not about to stand by and let my child suffer needlessly because I have a crack addict on my hands."

You know, if we want to apply this analogy consistently, remember first that we, as a society, remove the child from the environment as soon as possible.

Perhaps all WS should be prevented from seeing their children in the same way we protect the children of other addictive or abusive parents?

Aph,



The tragedy of abuse is not only do abusive parents usually love their children (in their own sick and dysfunctional way), but sadly their abused children usually still love them too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As a parent, I hope I can help my children understand the difference between people who can express love in healthy ways and people who can't....as well as why that might happen (like in an affair situation). It's part of my job, and the future happiness of my children depends on their ability differentiate between people they want to have a relationship with....and people they don't. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Sometimes love isn't the issue.

I'm not arguing that the best/healthiest kind of love is congruent with people's actions. I'm not even arguing if you want to call love that isn't congruent with loving actions....BAD love. Sometimes love is absolutely TOXIC and destructive.....look at affairs!! You want to tell your children their mother doesn't love them because she doesn't show it....that's your perogative....but I'm going to choose a different path. I'm going explain WHY I think he doesn't show it....or why it only proves he doesn't love himself....not them.

*editted to correct spouse gender for Aph.

Star*

I learned through our adoption process to let go of trying to manage how my children feel about their birth parents ... it just won't work!

I tried to manage their feelings at one time ... and I was counseled to stop & to simply support them working through their feelings.

Pep

PS .... once I let go of my motherly management of their feelings ... they got to where they needed to go in order to make peace with the facts of their situation.

When you start viewing her as a monster I would say the transition has occured, at least in your mind and that is really what matters, doesn't it Ap?

If you really think that affairs are the same as murdering children or raping them or sticking them in a dog cage in a basement, then how can you want to remain with her?

Not arguing with you...

I'm sorry for what she has done, I wish you could go join a jazz band and create again.

And it is a good thread because we have a whole generation of children at stake it seems... what 50% of the married population.

Damage control... and building loving, healthy children, even when hurt and abandoned.

Edited to add:

Maybe she has in fact become what she practiced for 10 years. Maybe it is in fact who she now is or always was. Maybe not a monster but maybe not marriage material (or good mother material) either.