Pep,

I'm not talking about "managing" a child's feelings....I'm talking about the same "working through feelings" that you are.

Aph,

It's clear to me that after ten years of an abusive wayward spouse that you've got your own axe to grind. Please keep in mind that this thread is about the "intervention" (exposure/confrontation) EARLY part of the affair process and how to talk honestly with children about that. After ten years....your children may be old enough to recognize if their mother is a monster (by their own standards)?

*editted to correct spouse gender for Aph

pep,

What did you tell your adopted children? Did you tell that that their bioparents didn't love them? Did you tell them that it wasn't your responsibility to help them understand about adoption and they needed to ask their bio-parents? I'm not understanding your meaning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

that's a good discussion

I will tell you ... check this thread a little later on

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I'd have to say that my main point of dissagreement has to do with speaking for the WS.

It seems to me..that a child old enough to ASK the question is also old enough to be dissatisfied with platitudes.

A VERY young child will really and truly just detach and cease to give relevence to the unreliable parent in favor of the attentive one.

I would not tell a child that their parent does not love them..nor would I assure them that they do.

I would answer for myself. I would tell them that *I* love them and demonstrate that love and care.

I do not think that the damage caused by neglect, abuse, or abandonment whether it is temporary, serial, or permanent can be avoided or contained. I think that children are egocentric enough that an explanation that their parent is "sick" is not satisfying or credible particularly when said parent is demonstrably functional in other areas of life [ie able to work..hasn't been committed..lol] but makes a conscious CHOICE to put other things including their affair ahead of the childs needs. This is especially true when the WS quasiadopts the affair partners children and invests in time with them WHILE remaining unavailable to the children of the marriage.

I think this holds true in the case of adoption.

Are there young women who would love to raise their child but find they are unable to do so?

Sure. Especially if they are 14. It happens.

There are also women who decide that raising a child will get in the way of their college experience/partying and give it away to avoid having responsibilities sooner than they would like.

There are also women who SELL their children and view their ability to procreate as a source of income.

As an adoptive parent I have no way of knowing what is true for the bioparent..I only know what is true for me.

That I wanted them and love them and my control extends no further than my own choices and actions.

Weaver,

I think I understand what you mean. I do love her and I don't think I could love a monster. The problem is a forest for the trees kind of thing. I no longer trust my instincts in such things. It would be like imbedding a victim’s family in the jury. My perception is clouded. I need a clear view of everything at once and there is no way I know of to get one by myself. I hoped there may be something enlightening here, I guess.

Star*,

“It's clear to me that after ten years of an abusive wayward spouse that you've got your own axe to grind.”

OK, I take the hint. You can have your thread back.

Star*

What did you tell your adopted children?

well, at first I told them that their BM loved them so much she wanted them to have a good home & since she could not give them that good home, she gave them up to someone who could.


Did you tell that that their bioparents didn't love them?

No, quite the opposite. I tried to convince them that the BM [/i]did[/i] love them. In spite of clear evidence supporting the opposite conclusion!


Did you tell them that it wasn't your responsibility to help them understand about adoption and they needed to ask their bio-parents?

Well, it is more complicated than that. I can/did speak to my children about my/our motives for adoption. What adoption is. Permanent making of mother/child .... forever their parents.

What I learned is that I cannot speak with authority about BM's or BS's motive for not being their parents.

It was fraudlent for me to pretend that I knew they were motivated by "love".

I know no such thing.

I'm not understanding your meaning.

oops ... entered too soon ...

here's the rest....

it turns out
when I was sitting in a therapy session with our son
the psychiatrist said to me
"tell him everythign about his mother"

I did NOT want to

because I was trying to protect him from the ugly truth

The Doc insisted I tell him all of his birth history, right then & there

drugs
men
prostitution
prison
etc etc etc

I was bawling

but

it was not until the truth was out there that he got the chance to make sense of his truths

and I let go of trying to manage his tender feelings about his BM....

I don't know if she loved him or not

I cannot speak to that

Pep

Pep,

Someone close to our family adopted a child from exactly this sort of scenario.

Birth mom was a prostitute addicted to crack..baby was born addicted to crack while mom was in jail..this was not her first child given up for adoption..or the second..or the third..earlier this year the birth mom contacted this couple to tell them she was pregnant again with twins and would they be interested in working out a "deal".

Star*, you said:


but, to me, this feels like it pretty much falls into the managing feelings aea....


[b]honestly, Starfish, sometimes it really seems like you are preaching to the choir about the sins of not showing up for church ....

who here has ever advocated telling a child they are unloveable?

no one!

Pep

[b]PS

son was pissed off I did not tell him sooner

You know there never was a more powerful moment for my wife than seeing the looks on my childrens faces when she told them she was leaving they to shack up with our neighbour.

There is no more powerful a splash of cold water in the face than a parent seeing how sleazy they look in the eyes of their children.

She also didn't much like it when she told them they could come and live with her and OM and they said no thanks we'll stay with dad.

noodle,


I like your approach of letting the child know that *you* love them. I'm really not suggesting anyone speak "for" the WS, nor provide empty platitudes, only that parents be sensitive to the fact that feelings of being "unloved" are very destructive to children and a WS is often not a good enough parent at that time to offer support for the child. Again...everyone (myself included) who's posted believes in honesty for the children (not platitudes)....and part of that honesty, I believe, is helping them sort through some of the confusion about the WS actions vs. feelings for the child. The WS is very likely to continue telling children he/she "loves" them....while obviously acting contrary to that statement. I would certainly validate the fact that the child is hearing/seeing mixed messages from the WS and I would also help them explore the possibility that the WS may still love them despite their actions. Thanks for you comments.

Aph,


Please don't feel as though you aren't welcome to post your struggle....it's a different struggle than the one I'm addressing, but it's just as important.

Pep

It must have been really heartbreaking for you to reveal the truth about a birth mother who had so many problems. You began, out of love for your child, being dishonest to protect his feelings. I've never suggested dishonesty anywhere on this thread. Not once, have I said....don't tell your child the truth so that you can "convince" them that they are loved. What I have suggested is that you help your child explore the mixed messages he's receiving from the WS.

As a BS, if I didn't believe that my husband still loved me, in spite of his actions to the contrary....I would never have attempted to save my marriage. Why would I? It was counter-intuitive, because the "logical" conclusion I would make...is that my husband couldn't love me and act the way he did (and children feel the same way). One of the great things that MB gave me....was the information and hope to know that the love was still there....even though his actions were so unloving. The dynamic is similar for children, and I would hope to be able to explore that with my child and provide some of the same hope and understanding I got from MB.


This board has gotten incredibly hostile lately....it's very disheartening. Ad hominem attacks....designed to discredit the poster are rampant and I think the above statement is designed to do just that. I'm not a preacher, and you guys sure aren't the choir....and if we are....this is be a really freaky church. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe this thread sounds "doh" or obvious to you....but I wrote it because I have noticed quite a few folks on several boards on MB who have involved their children in ways that may not be healthy for the children. Children are very powerful in their own way for raising the consciousness of a WS. They naturally create a huge "draw" back to the marriage, and help a WS to see the destructiveness of affairs....they are one of the strongest bonds between husband and wife.

One of the differences between your adoption analogy and an infidelity experience is that the BS is one of the "parties" who has been betrayed and harmed by the affair, and it's very very easy for the BS to get their feelings all mixed up with the child's....because they often "mirror" the child's feelings in many ways. BSs have the potential to be destructive in their own way to children....just like they can be destructive in their own way to the marriage. I think it's vitally important that BSs remember to be careful not to allow their own feelings to ADD to the trauma being experienced by the child.


This statement blew me away....because it's so twisted/spun to suit the purpose of discrediting anything I have to say. The only time I used the world "unlovable" was here:


Where did I say ANYONE advocated telling a child they are "unlovable"? I advocate helping my child feel lovable and you make it sound as though I've accused someone of the opposite. What is that? The truth is that while a WS is neglecting his family to pursue his affair....children can internalize feelings of being unlovable and blame themselves for the neglect....when it's really about the WS....and not them...and usually NOT because the WS doesn't love them.

bigk,


Everyone on this thread has advocated honesty to children, and acknowledged how powerful their reaction to the WS can be towards ending affairs. Thank you for revealing evidence of those two things. I appreciate it.



The important parts of what I had to say are here:

*Children need honesty, in age appropriate ways and timing that is designed to help THEM the most, not to serve the needs of adults.

*Their need to know is separate from "the" MB exposure designed to get help for the BS in ending the affair. They naturally and powerfully provide intervention but shouldn't feel compelled or responsible for doing so.

*The WS is already destroying the relationship with their child....BSs should be careful not to ADD to the confusion by further undermining that relationship because of their own feelings of betrayal. Use honesty to help the child, not to escalate any feelings of abandonment prematurely because that can further harm the child.

*Children need hope and the belief in their lovability just like BSs do. They need the tools of forgiveness if the family is going to be healed following infidelity and sometimes the BS can help/hurt towards that aim.

*WSs are notoriously bad parents....but most of them still love their children even though their actions are contrary to love during an affair. Children may benefit from exploring that dichotomy with the sane/involved parent (BS) so that they don't blame themselves or internalize the neglect of the WS.

*BSs need to remember that they also have the potential to affect children if they can't manage their own feelings when speaking to/around their children. It's very easy to create further confusion if a child feels torn between their loyalities or the need to protect each of their parents from each other. They don't have the skills or maturity to be mediators.

*Even though children are being hurt by the actions of the WS....most of them still love that parent and desperately want a relationship with them. Some WS may ultimately abandon their children, but if that relationship remains intact....it's usually beneficial to the children.

If anyone wants to comment on those points, I'm very open to talking about them. I'm going to stop responding to comments that are just about *me* though, because I think that takes away from the discussion itself and it's confusing to me and other readers. If you don't think this is an important subject, or that it's too "obvious"....disregard the discussion.

Have you discussed your thoughts with those parents/posters directly?

I'd like to read that/those discussion(s). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's been a difficult thread for me, this. I'd read something you wrote and think "right on!" .... and then a bit further on down I'd be going "what?"

Pep

pep.....This is just another attempt to create defensiveness and suspicion around *me* and this discussion rather than to address the salient points. I don't believe you'd be interested in reading those discussions....I think you're just looking for another way to discredit anything I say. I've posted directly and specifically to people many times over the years on this subject....this is a general discussion.

editted to add: your original post didn't include the last sentence which at least attempts to at a real discussion. I can promise you....it's been a confusing thread for me too pep.

you are wrong ... I am trying to understand you ... not discredit you ... in fact, I think that we are mainly in agreement about how children ought to be handled, but with subtle differences!

If you feel attacked, I will withdraw, For your sake, not mine.

I was thinking that those of us involved in this discussion are probably not your intended audience. Thus the "preaching to the choir" comment .... I am wondering specifically who you are trying to reach?

But, because you are feeling under attack, I will only comment further if you discuss me on this thread. You are not the topic, in my mind. The topic is the topic, not personalities.

Sorry & thanks

Pep

And you are also wrong pep....I don't mind being attacked or I'd have left MB long ago...I know who I am and I'm not that fragile nor defensive. The problem I see, is that it muddies the important parts of the discussion and confuses other posters who end up thinking the words other people put into my mouth....are mine...when they aren't and never will be. It makes the discussion about *me* rather than a discussion about honesty with children....and I think that's too bad.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to trust my own instincts....I don't believe you're trying to understand me....your comments and manipulation of my words don't support that <to me>. I do still appreciate you saying that's your intent anyway.

Yes....I know that we agree on almost everything but the subtleties....why do you think this is so dang confusing? You're right that you aren't the target for this discussion....you're well past the confusion and pain of early discovery or the need to approach this subject with your children. I welcome your comments about the subtleties. I welcome your opinions. But I dislike the implication that I've advocated lying or platitudes to "placate" children who need honesty to sort through the confusion. This post is for the folks who are still in that place....and for anyone who is trying to help them talk to their children in an honest and sensitive way. As a parent, you've already faced this hurdle....as a poster....you probably know all this stuff already. Not everyone has been here as long as you have.

It's obvious when a WS's actions don't match up with claims of love....that mixed message is very confusing. It's not so obvious that a WS's love their children despite their destructive actions.....that's also a mixed message. Are there WSs who really DON'T love their wives or their children enough to stop their destructive selfishness? Yes....sadly there are....but I think there are far more WSs who really DO love their wives and their children even though their actions appear to prove otherwise. It's important for BSs to know that. I think it's important for children to know that too.

just letting you know I've read this and I appreciate your honesty

pep

I couldn't agree more.

My daughter is eleven, and this thread is important to me for many reasons, not the least of which is that it helps me to remember that I am always honest with her for a reason, against the advice of others quite often too I might add.


Plus if we are going to be here responding to posters, or trying to help friends and family members throughout our lives, then it is important that we explore what the advice is we are giving and why, or if there is a better way.

All opinions, to every differing degree, are the only way to really examine our own thoughts and are really the only way we can hope to grow.

Aphelion, thanks. I'll look forward to the reference, if you CP is willing to give one.

Pep said
That is exactly how I believe a child would feel if he or she did not find out about the affair that caused the divorce until years later.