Just got an e-mail from ww's uncle,(christian counselor) seems he's been in contact with ww's grandma and he says that every women in that family has been divorced so grandma is going to side with ww all the way.

I don't see any chance to make a change.

I want my wife back!!!

I want to call her.
I want to talk to her.
Help me stop this!

JSlost, stay strong for the kids. Its not over yet but its no where near the time that things will turn and you have to remember they may not turn. You need to turn away from the WW and OM - it can consume you and you wont be any good to the kids if your obessessive.

Remember WW will do anything to attack you or break you or get what they want, she might have been mother teresa before but now she is a moffia king pin, she will do whatever and say whatever to get what she needs for her and the OM.

That is why you need to document everything you do and she does around the kids, forget what she does in private I know its hard. But if she spanks the kids you write it down, if she forgets to feed them dinner because of the OM write it down. Focus Focus Focus... if your documentation looks accurate the courts will believe it is accurate. If your WW comes into court with a bunch of napkins as notes of her actvities with the kids and you have a leather bound journal 30 pages thick, you win. Also make sure you have witnesses as much as possible at as many exchanges, when your with the kids. Do you have a camera phone, use it get a larger memory card and take pictures of you and the kids at mcdonald, at the park, wherever. If you demonstrate that your stable and providing and focused on the kids and your WW is focused on the OM. you win.

You wife/WW is not going to be anything to you until the affair is OVER (unless she's trying to manipulate you). In fact, her Waywardness is trying to convince you to "give up" as your trying is/was just annoying, desparate appearing and needy.

I'd document exactly what your son said to you about OM by email to WW with the very slight innocuous implication that based upon what OM said you fear that may be a child molester or something (after all you have not excluded him as a child molester). Anyway, it demonstrates, in writing that you are very concerned about the best interests of your children and she is not.

Mr. Wondering

Hi V.K.
I do have a lot of photos of recently. We went to the zoo and then to a carnival and to highschool football game.
She has done nothing with them. I'm sure she will say because she's broke but I took them to a free zoo and the football game was free too.
I'm just trying to do as much stuff with the kids as I can think of.
Most of it free stuff so she can see that I am not spending the money she thinks I have. lol

I was just thinking (again) and she wanted to leave back in March before she met anyone....she was convinced that our marriage was over before she met Frank.
Most ww's around here leave after they become ww.
Mine was planning on leaving before she went ww.

Does that matter?
That was the differance I was refering to in my situation.

Thank you Mr. Dubya,
I was thinking the same thing about the e-mail but what to say hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Should I e-mail her or discuss tonight?
I had a friend go to ww's house Friday and get me om's lisence number. It was a temp plate and Cop friend called me this morning and said he should be able to get me something from it.
Maybe I'll wait to see what comes of that and then hit her with everything as many here have been on my [censored] to jump on this and I have been to nicy nice to do anything about it so far.
I'm listening, I'm listening.
I don't want to hit her with anything untill I have the whole story, that way I can confront her on everything instead of confronting her several times.
S12's comments give me a starting point now and with the other info (last name, criminal background (if any), and a little history), I can have more ammo when I talk with her.

Thoughts?

have you checked you email lately??

I just sent the follow up one I promised.

Get the goods on OM and we'll discuss a plan.

Doesn't matter much that she left before the affair commenced (if that's positively true). You can't begin to repair the marriage until OM is out of the picture either way.

Plan A...for you. Become the best individual and parent you can be and the best husband she'll allow right now. Once she's single THEN you can hopefully attract her back when her options are single versus married to you. You being this awesome dynamic individual with whom she has a history and shares children with that appears now to have so much more potential than she was ever aware of before.

Good luck,
Mr. W

E-mail recieved...thank you very much. Wow, big. Very good info though.
I've been reading it closely.

I already feel like I won LOL.
I have been doing great, One of the things her mother told me a while back is that ww always wanted me to be more involved with the kids.
I help them with homework, play outside with them when there with me and do fun stuff when I have them with me.
My house is always spotless, laundry always done, folded and put away.

I'm taking D7 to the eye doctor next weekend. S5 calles me all the time when he's at ww's house.
He never askes to call her when he is at my house but I usually have them call her anyway.

I saw s5 and d7 yesterday when I picked up S12 and about 15 minutes after I left s5 was already calling me to talk.
I LOVE IT.

I've been going places with the kids as mentioned earlier and I'm always upbeat when I talk to ww.
No matter how things are going at work, I manage to smile when I answer the phone so anybody who calls always mentions how happy I am.
Smile when you answer the phone.....now I remember someone giving that advice to miwifeilove and they said if you smile when you answer the phone, the caller will scense it.

It works....trust me.

WW has noticed.....I'm never down, always happy, like I got something up my sleeve.
I think it confuses her.
Oh well.

Thanks go to go and pick up the kids.

JS

Well,
I LB'd
S12 said some more this evening about Frank and I asked him if he wanted me to talk to mom and he said yes.
I called and asked her how she was doing and then said that S12 asked me to talk to you about Frank.
WW Whats up?
JS S12 said he felt really uncomfortable around Frank and didn't like going over there when he was there.
She started to get mad at me and said that I was telling D7 that she was coming home.
I said I'm not telling her that, I said I told her that I wanted you to come home and that you were not.
She interupted me and said that she always tells D7 that this is moms house now and dad has his house and thats the way we are going to live now.

I should have just listened but I didn't.
I said others have told me that you should not be bringing another man around the kids yet and that I have been trying to stay out of your life and try not to give you advice but I don't know what to do either.
She got mad and started saying I was coaching the kids.
I said I will not lie to them about anything...if they ask a question then I will give them an honest answer.
I got a little mad because she would not listen to me and I told her that if she was going to get upset and keep cutting me off then maybe we should discuss this another time.
She said she would talk to S12.
I tried to be nice the whole time but she got loud and got mad whenever I tried to suggest we talk about it.
She didn't want to here anything I said so I finally got a little louder and said "if you don't want to discuss this and come to some agreement then I will take care of it leagally and that will be that.
She hung up.
She called back later and I let D7 answer the phone and she said goodnight to the kids.
I told S12 earlier that she got mad at me and hung up on me and that she said she will talk to you about it herself.

I guess I screwed up but I'm tired of being stepped on regarding Frank and my kids.
What else do I do?

Thoughts?

Wasn't perfect but you did fine.

You didn't coach the kids and you were honest.

Verbal communications can be twisted in court if it ever gets that far so may be an opportunity to document your "concerns" over S12's statements by email or letter (photocopied).

Your handwritten journal should document it too.

Mr. W

She came by this morning to take the kids to school.
I said good morning and she said good morning.
She gave me some pictures she had and said these are ones you should have.
Then we discussed the kids school papers, etc.
I left and said have a good day and she said you too.

No anger.

Oh yeah, almost forgot.
I got the license number off af a van at ww's house, turns out it's somebody elses. (differant name)
So I'm stuck again untill i can find a way to get Franks last name.
Anybody know him?

I'd suggest that you have a friend that she doesn't know well stake out her house overnight when you're CERTAIN that OM will be there.

Cheaper than a PI, and usually pretty reliable.

If that's not good, you can listen closely when your kids call to try to figure out if OM is there at the time...then make arrangements to have someone do a drive past and get the vehicle info.

You have any phone records, email addresses, etc... for him? Know where he works? You'd be amazed at how much you can learn even with just partial info. Let me know what you do have about him, and lets see if we can't find ways to snoop a bit.

I don't have much on him really.
I have a friend that knows him and I'm trying to get a hold of him to see if he remembers his last name.
I had a friend get a lisence number off his truck and got it to a cop friend but number was "no good"
Then same friend got lisence number off a van that he drives (om stays the night when my kids aren't there) and cop friend just called me back and gave me a name but it was somebody elses van.
I'm getting closer.
I'd bet that om has no drivers lisence at this point.
I'm still working on it.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Oh man, I hope you figure this out soon. I cringe to think what this would do to me if my W were hanging out with a loser and expecting my kids to have to socialize with him.

If she wants to hang out with scum that's her business but she'd better not subject my kids to it. There'd be he)) to pay. The risks a guy like this brings to the table are pretty scary.

Good luck finding some info JS.

PS: Your doing OK. I know you feel it isn't making a difference but keep it up. It's your best shot. If you forget how it can help go back and read MyWifeILove's thread again. I'm sure he said some of the same things you've just said when he was at a point much the same as you are in now.

Patience, kindness, calmness.

I haven't read your whole story, so I apologize if I'm missing something.

I think the same basic premise I'd suggested should still give you some chance of learning info about this guy. Have some friend play 'cloak and dagger' on your wife's place sometime when you seriously suspect OM will be there. Get the license, make/model/year of his vehicle. Try to discreetly tail him to see if you can get an address. Also have them look for any kind of parking permits displayed in the windows. Have him write down that info as well. More on that in a few.

If you get an address, call the local power company about your account...tell them you don't have your bill, but your address is XXX. See what they call you "Sure, stay on the line just a moment Mr. YYY"...then hang up. Or if they REALLY seem talkative and friendly, ask them to verify the billing information...and get full name, address, phone number, etc... Just say "yup, that's still good" to everything they say and thank them.

Then armed with an address and a full name, do an online search. Look to see if your county has online records, and do a search there. Think about your conversations with your WW...is this guy from around your area, or somewhere else? Do a search on that area as well. Look for divorce decrees, criminal records, whatever you can find.

If there were any parking permits in the vehicle, call the company/campus they were made for. Ask for {insert OM's name}. If it looks like it's his work, tell them you're a prospective employer, and you're looking to verify work history...and ask lots of good questions about what he currently does, work phone number, etc... Again, if they're chatty, ask them to verify personal information on him as well.

All of this can add up to a lot of good info. Just remember to be VERY pleasant, chatty, etc...but be careful not to blow your cover. Have your questions written down beforehand. Have a cover story ready if they ask why you're asking questions.

Don't ask what I used to do for a living! LOL

Hey Owl.....You for hire?

You got some awwwwwsome ideas.
Ok, from what I know.
His name is Frank ???
He lives in town here...D7 said "by the river"
She hadn't been there but she asked where he lived and thats what he told her.
The van he is driving is parked at ww house and he gets a ride to work in the junk little pickup truck with the bad lisence number on it that he drove before.
The van plate was a temporary plate and was registered to someone else.
Checked www.zabasearch.com and it looks like his age is about the same as Franks, I'm guessing.
Got his address from the city directory and will have to find someone to drive by that area to see whats up.

D7 said he's building a building that used to be a pet store and then she went on to say that mommy and I went to see him and we walked across the street to Subway.
I don't like to question D7 so thats all I got from her.

I hate obsessing on this guy, It would be so easyier if I had this info so I could just let all of this go and focus on me.
I'll get it soon.....
Thanks so much for your advice and I love the "electric company gag"

I will use whatever I can to get the dirt on this guy so I can get on with my life.

JS

Hmmm...so do a google search on Subway's in your area, look at the map on google and find the ones 'near the river'. Then take D7 out to lunch...and hit whatever Subway's meet that criteria.

If he's "building a building" in that area, he's likely either a construction worker on that work site, or the owner (not likely). If owner, look through public records for the build permit...or just walk up to the front of the site and read the displayed permits.

If you've got reason to believe that he's a construction worker building on the site, get the company name, do a look up for the company's phone number, and run the ploy I said about being an HR rep looking to verify employment.

Find out specifically about that "bad" plate. Either your friend got the number wrong, or its expired or stolen. Verify the numbers, run it past your cop friend again. If it's a wrong number the first time, maybe this time you hit pay dirt. If it's still 'wrong', even better. Have your cop friend go by there off-duty, and flash his badge asking about the van and saying something about being stolen or traffic violations...bingo, instant info. (Get him to arrest the jerk if he's up for it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

It took me two hours of work, starting with OM's full name and email address to get all the info I needed on him. It was actually pretty funny...six months into real recovery, while we were still doing MC, my wife mentioned to the MC that she couldn't even remember much about OM's personal info...but bet I would know it.

I replied with home address, work address, home and work numbers, direct work extension. Included the fact I knew what kind of truck he drove, and that he walked to work since he lived less than a half mile away. This all from memory. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And as far as hiring me...you couldn't afford me friend!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, just takes a bit of people skills, a little bit of imagination, and some fortitude. Now...I don't know how legal it is to pose as him...so if you do it, don't admit it here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Already did that search owl, came up empty.
On another note....whats up with this?

I had kids last two nights and the night before last S5 wet the bed.
He drank to much before bed and I forgot to have him "go".
He got up yesterday morning and had changed his wet clothes so I didn't know he did that.
WW came over in the morning to get them ready for school and she called me and said S5 wet the bed last night so I put his bedding in the washer for you.
I said Thank You very much.
Last night I was to have the kids again and she picked them all up from my house and brought them to S12's football practise.(she gets off work before me)
She told me that when she picked up S12 from my house that she went ahead and put the bedding from the washer into the dryer for me.
Again I said Thank you so much for doing that for me.
This morning she came over to get the kids ready for school and we talked about an upcoming open house for S12 and S5 on the same night.
I asked her if she wanted to go and told her I wanted to go to.
I said maybe we can both go.

Why does she do nice things for me once in a while but has no remorse for being with someone else?
I called her the other night and asked if she had company, she said no but I'm sure om was there.
That was the night we talked about S12 not liking Frank.
Why does she lie? Is it so she doesn't hurt me more?

Does she care about me at all?
We never fought and I haven't been rude or disrepectfull in regards to Frank so why is she doijng this to me?

She does nice things for many purposes:

1. Guilt (not that much though - but she needs to feel better about what she's doing to you somehow)

2. Manipulation:

a. Fear you'll interfere with her addiction
b. Reward you for not interfering with her addiction
c. To keep HER options open (Cake Eat)

3. Appeasement - to keep and reward you for being nice to her

4. Entitlement - It's part of the fantasy - that everyone will adjust and be better off in the long run. We can be friends and coexist as coparents to our children. I want and deserve your friendship.

5. Blame shifting - I was nice, he was the bad guy

Mr. Wondering

She lies because she doesn't want to face the consequences of the truth. She knows what she's doing is wrong, but doesn't want to FACE that what she's doing is wrong. If she tells you about something she's doing that she knows is wrong, she knows you have the chance to confront her on it. Rather than face that chance, she lies. It allows her to avoid the truth.

Why does she still do stuff for you? The answer is two-fold, and probably a mix of both. She's probably still in love with you, even if she refuses to admit it to herself. So she shows that in small ways, even if she doesn't realize she's doing so. Also...she could be doing this to make herself feel better. You know, kind of a "See, I'm still doing this for him, how bad can I be?" kind of thing.

Trying to understand her train of thought is going to drive you crazy. You're better off spending your effort making the changes YOU want to make, and work from there.

Thanks u2.
Just like every other BS, I'm looking for any little thing to happen but I guess I already know that this will take time.

I want to read her mind and then get in there and screw her thinking up so she's more confused...lol.

I'm a good man and I have been told by many that I've been a great husband and a great father.

My ww's uncle (christian counselor)has been e-mailing me and said that ww's grandma used to brag about how I was a great father and how I was such a wonderfull husband and friend to my neighbors and son in law...etc.etc.
Now ww's grandma has nothing good to say about me...lol

How the heck does a ww/wh trash the person they love so easily when there "done" with there marriage.

Oh, I know, I know....fog babble jabble.
Don't even answer that question.

What's a good dating sight? JUST KIDDING !!!!!

Little hump day humor.

Stay Still JS.....Stay Still!

Got it.
JS