Personally, I'm afraid of being stuck back in the cage.

Well, if I ever make the break I'll probably go back to my freeloading ways.

This relationship works so well for me. I'm just lost on what to do, so I'm doing nothing.

Its so funny to come such a long way in one year. A year ago, Green, I would have said the same thing. Everything was on my terms -- I was quite elusive, and no way was anyone gonna pin me down. I was really happy being single and unattached.

So a big part of me knows that I could be that way again.

But another part of me just doesn't want to bother seeing anyone else. Maybe I just need some time alone.

But, I still don't know how to make the break.

Hey Lexxy,

Sorry you are feeling so confused. I was kind of funny about committment.

I lived with my ex before we were married, but told him up front that I would only do it for two years before I expected the relationship to move forward. I told him I wanted more children and didn't want to stay in a situation until I was too old. Two years later he proposed.

I think he might have intended to sit on the engagement, though, because he wasn't happy at all when I kind of fast forwarded wedding plans because of a custody hassle I was facing with my older daughter. (Her dad tried to use the living in sin legal argument for us being too immoral to raise her...)

My soon to be fiance mentioned living together a few times and I sent him the buyers renters and freeloaders information.

I also talked to him about some of the things discussed on this board as far as the intimacy and trust that exists in a commitment.

It didn't hurt that a time or two I looked at him and said "We're not married" when he tried to imply that I should be amenable to something that didn't concern me or my finances since I was totally independent of him - which I pointed out.

Only in a true partnership would both want the same goals and work toward them. An incomplete partnership leaves both with different goals sometimes and the differences don't have to be worked out - they can just fester.

I guess that I would ask you what he adds to your life. How much of himself he holds back.

I wanted a life partner, not someone who held back for whatever reason. The "renter" you do what you want and I'll do what I want kind of "freedom" just stunts intimacy imho.

good luck,

V.

Thanks Sunny...

I think you are so right about the lack of intimacy in the renter type relationship.

Being that I have teenage children who I am still trying to mold into good people, I don't think a living together arrangement is what I want. I still plan on setting an example to them.

Plus unless you put a deadline on it like you did, I think those tend to drag on for a very long time without the next level of commitment. Not for me.

What we have now suits me fine....but since we disagree on what should happen a few years from now, I don't want to invest a few more years in this. It will only get harder to make the break. (or maybe I'm wrong, and a couple years from now it'll be easy to make the break -- any thoughts??)

I know I'm dragging my feet, at least I'm not fooling myself!

I think it comes down to another element, and that is the person you're dating. With some people, you can see yourself being married to them, with others, there is something that makes your gut tell you that while they are great for dating, there is something missing from making it into a marriage. I sense that this is Lexxxy's discomfort - that it is she who is not good enough for her BF to want to marry. It may not be a rational fear, but I can see where it might come from.

I think that I see some of this in my relationship with G. I have always seen myself being married again, and have never deviated from that vision throughout my dating of the past five years. So when I met G, and saw so much promise in that relationship, I thought that marriage would be the logical result, assuming things continued the way they started.

Well, as I saw more and more differences between us, I started questioning our compatibility more and more. To the point that today, while I still love being with her, going on dates and vacations with her, and having her be a huge part of my life, I nonetheless see it less and less likely that I would be married to her.

So, to me this is an example of how who you date does influence your feelings about marriage - if I felt that G and I were more compatible, I would not hesitate to move to the Buyer status - as it is, I doubt I'd ever go beyond Renting. And yet with the right person, I'd be a Buyer in a heartbeat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I understand what you are saying, and you are right, but, at the end... it comes to the same - no married to you...


Unless you have quite different 'timing', he should feel the same... if he feels about you the same as you feel about him...

Also, I don't like his reason - not to grow up... (You didn't say his age?)
It means, IMO, I'm not taking responsibility, I just want to have fun, no obligations... I'm here today but just a bit of being serious about something I run and am free again...
Hope I'm wrong in his case...

And you are right.
One of the best advice I've got, so simple and so true, is:
If you don't know what to do (decide), don't do anything. Wait until you are ready.


I think you are wise to think this way. Where you want to be in the future.

You cannot know if it'll be harder to break up in a couple of years vs. now.
'The time would tell...'
Something for sure will happen to make all of it easy... this way or the other... It's just a question do we want risk that time and one day in the future consider it as wasted...
Well, being so happy with him is not 'waste', right?

I see some similarity, somehow... L. and AGG... ?

AGG said:
"I know many here advocate the "one day at a time", "que sera sera" attitude, but you know me, I also think that spending time in a relationship that is not destined to go where you want to eventually be is sort of like spinning your slicks, er, wheels..."

And also:
"I have always seen myself being married again, and have never deviated from that vision throughout my dating of the past five years.
---
So, to me this is an example of how who you date does influence your feelings about marriage - if I felt that G and I were more compatible, I would not hesitate to move to the Buyer status - as it is, I doubt I'd ever go beyond Renting. And yet with the right person, I'd be a Buyer in a heartbeat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />."

You both know what you want yet.....
??

I.e. are you going to 'settle for less' for "it's so good otherwise", or you are waiting for some changes, or just too weak to leave and go again from the beginning to search for a person you can pursue your goals and reach desired destination with?

I do wonder this... for myself...
I do hope if I ever fall in love with someone again, I would not give up what I really want and need... would not waste again my time...
Or I might do the same (afraid so)...
Or it is better to do the same...
Huh, really tough one.

Lexxy ~ I want to say this gently & with care for you, but you're right in one sense -- at least you're not fooling yourself.

But you're also doing something else that isn't good IMHO: You are fooling WITH yourself!!

How can this be ULTIMATELY healthy for you to agonize back & forth, toying with your own heart & feelings for him? I can "hear it" in your words as you cycle up & down from about to can him to ... we had another terrific weekend!!

So where will this approach get you in the future?
How will this help you reach the best place for your life?
How can being with him help you meet a better person suited for you?

I'm going to say something plain & simple: You guys are on vastly differing tracks. And two cannot walk together forward except they are agreed!

Both of you have your own goals. They don't end at the same place. Mature marriageable commitment is all about both parties being willing to lay aside the single selfishness that says "my goals & needs alone are what need to be met"; and is willing to say "OUR goals & needsa are what we will meet together".

If it is not best for our common good (POJA), then we will not go there.

This is all fundamental MB stuff. A good question we should all ask ourselves continually is: How good does my current relationship meet the fundamental MB principles??!!

I mean, we're all here because MB principles didn't exist in our former failed marriages. And yet...(me too), we're so often continuing these same dead end patterns - ignoring plain & simple MB principles!!!!

Think about it...Me too!! I need to really think about it.

well -- BTM is right.

AGG -- you're in the same boat I am. You know you want to get married in the future, but you're spending time with someone who doesn't fit the criteria. What are you doing about it? Or are you still evaluating if G could be the one?


HF -- thank you for your post. You're right, except for one thing -- I'm not cycling between dumping him and having fun with him -- they are simultaneous. I enjoy all of my time with him, but with the realization that we're not going to end up together.

I like your question:

But help me to define the list of principles...

radical honesty
undivided attention
emotional needs
joint agreement

what else? and what if I come to the conclusion that we are doing great on every aspect listed above except he just doesn't want to get married?

Basically, yes. The one difference between you and me is that in your case, your BF has given you the fairly unequivocal answer that he will never want to get married, so basically, you have your answer and need to figure out what to do with it (e.g. accept a relationship without marriage, or seek out marriage with someone else).

In my case, I do not yet have the definitve answer that will not want to marry G. I am seeing more and more that this is what I will end up with, that she is a great match for me as a companion, but not something I want as a partner. But I am not completely sure of this yet, and I want to give it more time to see the forest and not just the trees. (I know some will say that I am simply raitonalizing and wasting time, but I don't see the need to hurry and make any decisions right now).

One of my good friends has made a funny comment - she said that ideally, G would buy a house right next to me, and we would be able to spend lots of time together in our relationship, without having to entangle our lives, which is where I see us as being incompatible. I know that G does not want that (she definitely wants to be married), but for me, I had to admit that this sounded like it would be a good option. Which again told me that the way I see G now is more of a companion than marriage material. Which is totally out of character for me. Weird. But it does go to show that your decision about marriage vs. dating is influenced by who you are with.

AGG

I think its wise to completely evaluate the situation and not act rashly.

You're right about my situation. Although I am not considering accepting the relationship without marriage. I have accepted that it will come to an end, I'm just trying to choose the time for that to happen (which I think will be sooner than later...)

And once that happens, I won't be seeking marriage with someone else. I'll probably return to my singlehood freeloading plan.

Hmmm, allow me to be the devil's advocate. If you won't be seeking marriage, and will return to your freeloading days, then, uh, why not do that with your current BF, with whom you have a great "no-marriage-potenital" relationship? i.e. why not be a freeloader with him - it sounds like he would love a freeloading relationship, and you two are very compatible that way?

AGG

I KNOW....I get myself into this circular argument all the time!

IKWYM... I got in the same boat with G when I tried to break up with her a couple of months ago, and she asked: "Why end such a great relationship now, why not give it time and see where it goes?" I had to admit that yes, the relationship was great, and even though it may not lead to marriage, why not continue it and see what happens? But yet I know that she wants marriage, and I am pessimistic that I will ever get there with her...

Like you said, circular argument <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

L and AGG, I think you both are hoping that maybe, given some time, that they'll change.....

The romantic in me sure hopes so, for both of you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Holy smokes AGG, I think your optimism might be showing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hehe, not really, I have given up on that long ago <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I think that with 8 months under our belts, I know G pretty well, including her habits, patterns, etc. I don't expect her to change. What I do hope might change is my reaction to her habits. Some days I get frustrated to no end; other days, I don't let it bother me. I don't know if at some point I'll learn to accept all of it; I hope I might, but I don't expect that to happen.


Funny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. If she were willing to accept my friend's joking idea of just being companions, that would be a possible approach. But I know full well that come December or a bit past that, and G will want to know where things are headed. If asked today, I'd have to say that I do not see myself being married to her - so I can be the companion, but not the husband. Unfortunately, just like Lexxxy does not want to accept that with her BF, G won't want to accept that either.

AGG

Hm, I'm not so sure...
Why wouldn't she continue R hoping you change your 'reaction to her habits' and you learn 'to accept all of it'...? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Could you truly be ok w/ that? It thought you said you were more wired for marriage....even though you've said this:
or is it more a matter of compromising what one really wants to fit who you are with?

I dunno.......all I know is there must be something wacky out there floatin' in the cosmos for AGG to be willing to contemplate a renters relationship and for me to have even *THOUGHT* about a buyers relationship w/ my BF! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are right, I was projecting my thoughts, I certainly cannot know for certain what G might or might not do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

But, going by what she has always said, she wants to be married. And she does not want to date a person for many years, like she did with her previous BF. She has always said that a year is about the right amount of time to decide.

There is no way to know that at some point I might not learn to accept her as is. In fact, if I look at the future, when my kids have grown and moved out, I may very well be a different person with different needs. By that time (not to be morbid), her parents might no longer be around, and her niece/nephew will be teenagers and likely at an age where they won't care all that much about her visits back East. Between that and some other things, I can see the possibility that we might be more able to make a happy life for ourselves. But, that is 10 years from now - I doubt G will want to "date" for 10 years. But if pressed today, my answer would be "no" - we have way too many things on which we do not see eye to eye and which I know will cause us tremendous friction.

AGG