OKAY...thanks for pointing that one...

AmI....that's not boarderline new belief...THAT is an old belief..thank you! That's the problem with HN...I have thought that all along...that OP come first...That's a 14 year old belief. I can remember the 1st time he did it...and tons thereafter...

What to do about that one...what to do?

Remember I said I was that doll on the shelve...waiting for him to pick me up and play with me...give me some attention...there you go!

AmI- I thought I sounds mean when I re read it. I am very grateful you saw that. I didn't! Thank you!

AmI-

Lady, you my dear just labeled my next pole holding up the staircase...it's called thoughtless/selfish/inconsiderate...that's what I see mostly in WH. That's my main focus...

Inner child issue...not just with WH...I remember this with my mother...I would ask her to play with me, in essences give you some attention...she was always reading or sleeping or working...always to busy for me. That's what I saw.

My pattern repeats with WH...I see OP and other things always coming before me and the kids...more often me...

I belief I am important to him but not important enough to think of me and how his actions affect me and the kids...

He spent two or three days working on HN's kitchen. That was two or three days, perhaps four that I didn't get to see him...that the kids didn't get to see him...now he complained he was doing it because he didn't want her to hurt herself...I complained because he was doing it and he hadn't even done that there...thus HN came first in my eyes.

I looked at Open House night also...I saw HN and stranger coming first...I didn't thing thoughtlessness as to how it would affect me and OS. I saw him putting them before his son.

This is a repeating pattern...in our R...I don't have being a child and being an adult puzzle pieces all put together...but this is a major revelation for me!

I've always saw him as extremely selfish...wanting his time...questioning where my was...putting his needs before mine...In my eyes he ALWAYS come first, which now I know he should be selfish to a certain extent...

I've always wanted to be number one in his eyes and the same thing with my mom. Mom picked SF over me...even with all of the abuse that he did...I understand now, why...I thought it was becasue she was weak that she stayed with him...with my new found knowledge...I understand it was harder to stay with him...hence my renewed contact with him...I figure if she can make it through that...then my journey is a walk in the park...

It's the first time I have ever looked at my mom with respect...Speaking of she sent my B-day present early. I got it today...it's the first thing I've ever liked, much less loved. It really helped warm up my day! I'll be calling her later to tell her how much I love them...a choker with a cross and matching earring, and another heart necklace all sterling silver...she was listening to me. WOW

Anyway, I have to figure out some boundaries and how to deal with my jaded view of first or second...Thank God for yesterday and the heartache! And Thank God for AmI! Of course, knowing is half the battle.

I've got to figure out this boundary thing...

...look at my little blessings...the world is changing...my mom, my SF, me...It feels good to own that phone call that changed my relationship with them...ridden with fear...

Now, what do I do now...oh, I was going to write a lie, I believe...I can be more thoughtful not really with WH, of course, I'm sure it will help...but with OP...in person...oh, that's scary...okay...I've got to try or I'll never know...OMG...okay!

How do I move forward for here with WH on this one?

Rin,

You're working your way through...which is exactly where your focus will profit you...

And because you were with me this week on my own FOO journey, I can say this...

What we don't want...what you experienced with your mother and your WH...is what we most expect, too. To be put last place, to see it that way, gives us that experience.

And getting what we most expect is a twisted comfort...we can feel awful and have a small dose of being clairvoyant, being right. Think in our heads we say, "See? I told me so!" Let us both let that go for now...the payoff is beneath us...

Part of the repeating pattern we do ourselves...with what we expect most. What do you think?

You are in the process of figuring out the boundary thing...and so am I.

I hear you doing what I did with my folks...the laundry list, the injuries being made fresh again with each recall...a case to prove...instead of accept for now; later, I'll have learned more.

I'll come back to my poorly written section of my previous post about believing had we been better, our lives would be better later. My DH is waiting for me to accompany him on errands...and there's a sunset soon to be included.

LA

P.S.

HL: I'm quoting your post. It's too fantastic for just saying it once.

"Nobody can achieve perfection.

Not even Captain Kirk was perfect.

But when he put the crew in danger he certainly took ownership and if he had to sleep with a blue alien women to get them out of it he did.

Ownership makes perfection unnecessary."

HL rocks. To the ground.

LA

Well, I called WH after thirty minutes of being late from getting home. HE was hanging out with the boss having a few beers. I told I don't mind you doing anything as long as you call and let me know. He said he was sorry and didn't think about it.

So, I said don't I always call you and let you know where I am. HE said yes. I said well, can you please extend the same courtesy to me? I must have heard he was sorry for or five times.

He showed up and hour and a half later. I really didn't mind, he's got a new boss over the shop that he's at. T is his mentor I guess you could say, and T's been working nights at the other shop. T just got the new position, so I knew they would like to get reacquinted. What I minded was him drinking beer, hanging out at the a new store then driving home. Out of my control, I can state my feelings about it and that it. T's drinks all the time...I think in excess...I'm hoping that WH doesn't make this a habit. I'll really need to go to Alanon. LOL

Well, on the way home he called, the stores about two miles down the road, he asks if I'm going to put him to sleep (SF)...I said no with the mood I'm in right now...He said well, I figured it would hurt to ask...

WH got home, ate, and then went lay in the bed (I told him on the phone I could tell he was buzzing and probably had about 6 or 7 beers. He laughed!), then called me in then. I had started talking to me on the sofa but his phone rang. I did a drive-by saying I felt like I was fighting the world for my time with him.

Hence, calling me to lay down with him, we talked a little. I didn't get to finish the conversation I started about my revelation, didn't even get a chance to bring it up...he felt asleep with his arms around me...

I waited a little while and tried to get up but he wouldn't let me (still asleep), so I waited some more but that time he woke up and asked where I was going... I said well you were sleeping and I know how tired you said you were this morning...Well, we talked a little more and I was picking on him about the light he was suppose to fix in the boy's room. The whole fixture needs to be changed, but

I had only asked him to look at it because it was flicking. He did what I asked and I was laughing saying I know that why I couldn't say anything...you did exactly what I asked...I joked with him...calling him a neglectful father (laughing)...he started poking me in my ribs, saying don't start little girl...I said yeah, you neglectful father and the screaming mother...he started poking me and repeated what he said...

Next thing you know...here comes YS and I had to get up, then WH cell rang...His mom...there went our time...I handled the problem with the boys and go back to the bedroom...he's passed out...Oh, well...I got a few good minutes!

Now, I'm wondering if I should even talk to him about what I figured out or just let it be...

Hi Rin just checking in. WOW! I was missed! thanks.
I haven't caught up with your thread yet. but it sounds like I have the same problem w/ my FWH....letting me know what his schedule is. It drives me nuts. He'll volunteer to the kids what he plans on doing for the day, but when I ask I get "you know this and that." Habit?

Check my thread for a little more detail.

Suggestion to answer the SF question:

"Oh, you know whenever you spend time with me, your attention turns me on."

Hi, ChaCha...I read your update...this is for you and Rin...

Rin, I believe when we tell our partners, I choose to do this for you so I want you to choose to do this for me...that sounds like our choice is to get them to choose the same, doesn't it?

Like a backdoor into telling them, "I need this, for me. I fear you starting back up your affair or a new one. (That would be for Rin.) I want transparency because each time you choose to call and update me on your whereabouts tells me I'm in your thoughts. I believe if I'm in your thoughts then you won't have someone else in them."

For ChaCha..."I wonder if you don't share your plans with me because you think I will judge your plans. I won't. I'm listening to know where you won't be. Where I fear most. I don't have an agenda for your day secretly in my head. I just have a lot of fear in my heart and each time you choose to lay out your day and keep me updated helps me with my fear. I deeply appreciate your choice to do this."

My DH became my partner fighting my own fear, when I endlisted him. After years of making him the enemy, he got to fight one with me...and later, he enlisted me to help him fight his own. "We're in this together" made all the difference.

ChaCha...you are living what I feared most when my WH went wayward. You're a hero in your own right. Be sure to know how strong and amazing you are. Do those O&H statements of how you feel, what you think...because that isn't asking him to solve you...but to share you.

"Each time I don't know where you are or who you are with, I sit with my fear, and feel swallowed by it."

Clear and true statements. You have to mind your own resentments...I found these statements reduced them, announced I was part of the situation and not trying to control it.

I believe when we get through the uncertainty, through withdrawal and into recovery, Rin, that sharing what we do for our partner and why, brings back in the "I do this from love and I'm asking you to do it from love, so I can taste that love strongly," is legitmate and what Harley emphasizes. Getting to the point where that sounds like truth and not an attack is the difference. Time and practice.

Whenever I wanted my WH to do or not do something, I had to flip it over onto myself and find out if I wanted something fixed inside me. As you just saw with my FOO, I did it better with DH than my family. Thanks to you, I got back to the center of this and with you, I hope to stay there.

Just handing you back what you already know...

LA

Very patient women you are. So what is your boundry here? How did you enforce it?


Really irrelevant if you call him to check in when you are out. Is that his boundry or yours? Some people have different boundries. He may or may not care if you call or not. If he does expect you to of course that is worse because he is not living within his own boundries.

Boy then he gets drunk and wants some SF. My FWW would pretend she was asleep when I go home so she didn't have to deal with a drunk, horney guy. LOL.

I would stay away from the joking about the light or calling someone neglectful. I would be able to take it on most days but catch me on a bad day and we might get a little into it. LOL.

I am going to suggest getting a darn lightbulb out. Standing under the broken one and calling your H in. Hand him said lightbulb and say get too it sparky. You can act on this to eliminate it. Stop waiting and act. LOL.

I really think you should just stop and breath.

Stop looking at every single little thing and just focus on the big right now.

Remember one thing boundries teach people how to treat you and act around you. If you don't know what they are your H will not know how to act and treat you.

Good luck.

I am having trouble making a destinction between boundary and seems like punishment for crossing it? I was really good at doing things as punishment. If someone could use the example on yesterday and WH not calling. BTW, WH got off @6:30 and not 7pm. I called him @ 7:30 to find out where he was!

AmI, are you around?

Boundary: Identifies the tolerance area. What you will accept vs not accept regardless of the outcome.

Punishment: Disciplanary action taken when something or someone has been wronged.

Very different issues here. What is making it difficult to distinguish? Who is being confused you or the WS?

Btw, WS confuse a lot of things so expect them to clarify is a futile exercise.

L.

Thanks Orchid...I the one confused trying to figure out what my boundraries are and I guess I am confused because HL asked how will I enforce it.

I have backed down from my decision/boundaries so amy times in the past for fear of WH's anger.

Rin,

Exactly. You see enforcing a boundry is not a punishment. It is a consequence for words, deeds, and actions that are NOT ACCEPTABLE TO YOU.

I, like you struggled with how to enforce my boundries. I thought getting upset and letting the FWW know was an enforcement. Well evidently it wasn't because in an attempt to enforce my boundry she became the victim. PA behavior.

Finally I realized I can enforce my boundries by doing nothing. I really mean nothing. What did my FWW have to lose by not respecting my boundry? Nothing.

For example she wants to spend 100 bucks which we should discuss. She does anyway. I get mad and we get into it. She still has the object she purchased. I can't make her take it back either.

So now I just let her know and let my feelings, hurt, anger and disbelief subside before I fill her needs. Seems to work better. You see if I go a few days giving her the cold shoulder, for crossing my boundry it has more of the desired effect.

If she asks me to do something that I don't feel comfortable with or I just don't feel like doing, I just say no. So now the things that I do are measured by her willingness to live within my boundries. I am not willing to x for someone that would cross my boundry.

So let me ask you a question. What if on bike night you decided you wanted to go to the book store and left the kids with him. You have just as much right to do things on your own that you enjoy right. So if he crosses your boundries in the future you already have LEARNED possibly that talking, yelling, asking, begging, etc don't work.

So why keep doing that?

I read in the paper today- By Andre Agassi.


It hit me like a ton of bricks.

Until you figure out a way to enforce your boundries they have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

My FWW obviously did not have enough to lose.

The other thing that keeps coming to me is a FWS has tested the largest boundry in an M and you are still there.

I kinda think the attitude after that might shift to empowerment for a FWS. NOT ALWAYS!!!! Geez if Rin didn't D me for that what the heck is there that she will D me for.

You don't need to D him you just need to find a way for him to understand he is going to lose something.


Well if that is the case he is just trying to be the victim. My FWW was famous for this. LOL. How dare you get mad at me. So don't get mad just stop doing the extra's you do. He may feel like he is losing enough then.

Hey, Rin.

I'm definitely a novice at boundaries ... another area where I have a lot ot learn.

But I can sum up some of the info that others have given me.

First, the difference between punishment and boundaries ... punishment is about the other person. Enforcing your boundaries is about you. What will you tolerate or not.

Another big thing I've learned about boundary enforcement is that you need to think them out and have them set before hand. Decide what you will or won't tolerate, those are your boundaries, then decide what to do when they are crossed.

One of mine is the cursing and yelling at me or the kids. My enforcement, I will remove myself and the kids.

I'm not very good at coming up with creative enforcement, so you might want to think about it a little more ....

But first figure out your boundary. Is it that he has to tell you where he is at all times? Tell you if he's going to be later than expected...? Be specific. And let him know that's your expectation. And if he's not home when he's supposed to be, then you and the kids won't be, either. Going to your mom's where there is another responsible adult there to help you with the kids' evening routines. Or taking them to the arcade so they can get the play time in they will be missing with Daddy. Or you'll be hiring a sitter so that you can do whatever it is you wanted to do. Or you'll drop the kids off with him so that they can get some Daddy time, and you can do whatever you wanted to do. I'm not sure if any of those are options or not, but the point is that the enforcement is about you, your decision, your choice. It's not about him.


Like I said, I'm not an expert at this at all. I still have a lot to learn. But that's some of what I've picked up on that I am working on.

-AmI.

Ok, so now we have a better picture of what you really need t/d.

Catch me up, he is an Xws or WS?

L.

Well, Last NC was 8/17/06, I guess b/c of lack of trust I'm still referring to him as WH and no FWH. He called OW that day and told her he wanted NC. I had asked for a letter or phone call with me present but he chose to do it his way. Said he was ridding himself of a problem.

So, today make NC for 9 days...last time I thought there was NC it was 37 days...

It's been rough of course...today he said he felt like he couldn't be himself now a days because of me...okay...

...just took it as info and when about my way...his...not mine...finally starting to learn that valuable lesson...

Sometimes the tension is so thick here I feel like I can cut it with a knife...like now...he just went lay down...we're suppose to be going to a biker rally this coming weekend... and I said something about no having to worry about entering the couples dirty dancing contest...H doesn't dance...and he said I'm sure you don't hae to worry about any of the contest...I asked what he meant and he said I don't see you getting into the wet t-shirt contest or throng or any of them...I said Nope...

There after he closed the computer, sat it on the side of him and gathered his stuff and went outside...
A few minutes later he walked on...didn't say a word and went to bed...I walked in there to return a book I was reading that was his and I asked if he was okay...he said yes and covered up more...

I'm sure this is normal WS behavior...I just have to be tolerate...

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have a much clearer understanding of boundaries...setting them that is...

I did a google search and read some articles like on Orpha's website...thay gave some good examples...I'm still reading and as a MOF, LA, you had recommended a book called Boundaries in M...one day I hope to read it...right not my hands are full of books...LOL

Hey, Rin ...

What's stoppping you from asking him clarifying questions when he's in those moods?

He said he doesn't feel like he can be himself around you ... ask what he means. What would he like to do differently?

Or what about "I felt like you were distant after we were talking about the contests. What do you think about the contests they have there?"

Would it help to get more clarification? I think that's the next step to listen and repeat. LIsten and repeat and ask questions to clarify....?

Just a thought. I would want to know what he meant by all that. But that's just me, I always want to know what my H is thinking....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

Thank all of you for everything...all the wisdom, words of advice...I love some of your suggestion and what you do with your S...

AmI...I like the B you set for your H with the cursing...I'm trying to enforce that one to...as for as the clarification on why he says he can't be himself will be explained in the situation that occured yesterday after his nap.

I was very calm throughout the whole thing. I probably could have done a better job with listen and repeat or been more respectful or something...but I let every DJ slide and kept my tone as even as I could...

WH woke up, pissed...comes in the living room and said to make my plans for the weekend (instead of going to the rally). I repeated the conversation we had earlier about the contest and said I don't want to join in them, doesn't mean I won't watch them.

Don't think that if we go I'm going to ruin your weekend and be a b!tch. H said well, I remember a time where you entered a wet t-shirt contest and I didn't want you to what happen to all of those times (I was in college and we were just dating). I said I grew up. H said well, if that what it's like to grow up and never have any fin then I'm never growing up.

Somewhere in this conversation he said that I could make plans for the weekend and I said NO that I wasn't going to allow him to may me out to be the bad guy. He said why not you always make me out to be the bad guy. I refuted and said that not what I think of you...You're not a bad guy. I can't even remember everything that was said. He did say something about being himself and I asked "Who are you?"

This must have caught him out guard b/c he was quiet. I said I know you like to hunt, fish, but what else? He changed the subject. He also said that I did something and I asked him for examples and all he could come up with was the porn site and said that he couldn't think right now when he's like this.

He dropped a ton of DJs and SDs...

I was reading all of your post at the time and he demanded that I stop posting his life on the internet. I said it was my life too and It's anout ME, not HIm. I kept reading, remained quiet...H said I guess you didn't hear me...I said Yes, I did you said you didn't want your life posted on the net, fine I won't write about you...

Oh, that wasn't good enough..he compared this site to his porn site and said it was disrespectful to him and demanded that I not come on any more.

Somehow he started talking about how he felt punished everyday and if he had known that it was going to be like this then he would have kicked me out after my ONS. HE said that he should have told everyone about my ONS and I agreed.

He said that if things were going to remain or had he known they would be like this he would tell me to pack my [censored] and I could leave. I looked and him and kinda of smirked and shook my head. He said that this was between me and him, not b/t me, him, and the world.

He said that had he known that things would be like this he would have left me alone, in college when I slept with a friend.

I said so, I can't get support on the net, I can't go to IC or MC. He said I didn't say that you couldn't go to IC, I said that I wasn't going to go.

I finally said that I had better things to do then sit here and not be listened too. I walked into the dining room and he threw a plastic coke bottom in my direction. I didn't even look back. I went outside and worked on my staining my signs.

A little while later he walked outside did something, I didn't even look up, then went back into the house. Maybe twenty minutes later, I walked in the house to cool off and was friendly to him and I continued to be friendly to him for hours.

Well, I called the babysitter for this weekend to see if she had decided to accept the offer and she did...talk about changed his tune...I didn't even say anything to him and he was on the phone calling his friend.

LOL...come to find out we might not even have a place to stay...LOL

Well, the rest of the night passed well but my anger came up and I didn't deny it. H asked what was wrong with me, I said I'm mad about out earlier conversation, this is the third time you have tried to stop me from improveing myself. He said Oh, now you get mad. I said I was mad earlier today but what was the point of talking about it then.

He asked how had he trying to stop me. I something about throwing my books away. He said I never threw your books away. I corrected him saying I didn't say you did I said you wanted me to throw then away. He was quiet and remained quiet. I remained friendly and talkative when I had something to say. We went to bed and about thirty minutes later he got up. It woke me up, so I went to the bathroom, and went sat in the living room. I sat there for a few minutes and then kissed him telling him that I was going back to bed that I didn't have a nap today.

He immediately followed me and I went back to sleep. He was moving around a lot and stratled me out of my sleep so I turned over and he pulled me to him. I went back to sleep.

Anyway to get to the point, I started SF after being awoke again, but I had that energy nap, you know. That made the third time this weekend...which is out of the norm...

So, I've been told to stay off MB. He asked if I was going to do it behind his back and I said then I would be doing the same thing you did. What options do I have...I will not give up you all, you are me friends...

What I've considered posting my email address and changing my screen name because he read something on my thread and that's why he doesn't want me posting his life. What do you all think?

OH, BTW, he's in a great mood today...changing my behavior is indeed affecting his!

Oh, I forgot to say that WH thinks that you all are influencing and making decisions in our life. I said that he was making aa SD asking me to stop coming here.

I really can't believe I didn't let any of those DJ about my past affect me, that's amazing...

I know this is a DJ but he is really uncomfortable with what's going on with me, the changes I've made, not arguing back, remaining calm, no yelling, standing up for myself...these are things he's not familiar with...not to mention all the fog b/c he's not making sense...

Ask for clarity. When you say you can't be yourself what do you mean. Does he mean calling the OW? Does he mean not respecting your boundries?

This is one of the biggest issues my FWW and I had. She actually wanted me to treat her the exact same way I did before the A. Or even worse she wanted me to fix my shortcomings but she was perfect. She didn't need to change.

Well she had a list of things that bothered her and I had a list of things that bothered me. Well she expected me to work on all of my things and she disregarded her changes.

Sometimes I think that it is hard for the FWS or WS to do is admit their shorcomings because that may leave more of the burden on them for the A.

I know it sounds crazy but the more OWNERSHIP the FWS or WS takes has to take more responsibility for their actions.

To put it simply I (the FWS) was perfect, you the (BS) had many flaws. That is why I had the A.

As you have read here both partners have to take ownership of the pre A problems.


Well yes of course. When a person finds information that may help they want to implement it in their lives. As you have noticed I usually disappear on the weekends and at night. That is because my FWW hates that I come here.

What this board has done for me is it validates some of the things I was feeling. I think when talking to a FWS they think that we are crazy for feeling this way.

You might even point out that it has actually influenced you to stay with him and try to work on the problems in your M.

I have not seen anyone give you bad advice. There are boards out there that would tell you to get the heck out.

Now I see in your H the same I see in my FWW. That is the propensity to try to escalate every sitch into a confrontation and then turn it around on you.

That way you are punishing him for his A not working on the issues.

I hope things work out for you.