Rin,

You know you choose your life. He chooses his life. No one here or anywhere else has the power to do that...he felt upset when he read something here. Validate his feelings...he felt upset. That's his, not yours, isn't it?

For now, you are looking for direction, your own way...and you are choosing it. Acknowledge he does not like his life being written about on an anonymous forum. Find out why. Find out what he thinks and believes. You refuted instead of confirmed...and I can see now how you are staying calm, not AOing, being careful in your actions, consciously careful...which has the tenor of both hands full...to acknowledge and validate, though, WILL calm you, no AOing impulse may come up when you really hear what he's saying is totally about him.

And what you say is about you. Is saw refuting instead of repeating. I believe you're here to heal, to find your way not to deal, but to truly heal...

Why change to soothe, fix or cure him of what he feels? For now, this seems to be your automatic response...which tells you and him that you are, indeed, the cause, control or cure for him.

And you're not.

And you know that. Validate, Rin. He's capable and in control of himself. You linked in your mind him saying to throw away your books...that's not MB...no broadcasting his life in there...to his request yesterday. Don't step over these are requests...you take them to mean if you don't, you're hurting me...

Could that be paralleled to his contact...if he contacts OW, you hurt? Like you look at your actions and his as the same...don't do it if it hurts?

Can you sort the two out?

Find the principle behind each one?

And yes, when you refute you are arguing--and hearing his stuff as an argument instead of a statement...acknowledge by repeating...there's nothing to refute. His thoughts, feelings, beliefs and desires are all his...value them as his own, to know. To know.

Committing to listen and repeat as your top priority has they byproduct of not prodding you to be reactive...that hopper on your head helps...rather than making your top goal to not react...meanwhile, taking in what he says as hurtful stabs...

Or assumptions.

"I hear you do not like me sharing our marital life on an anonymous board."

"That's right. What are you gonna do about it?"

"What am I going to do about your discomfort or fear?"

Steadily respectful...not combative...not making him take care of what already only he can truly take care of...

And you, you.

Might only be my view that you're looking at cause and effect, cause and effect...which tells self you cause and have an effect...instead of two separate and equal humans sharing what they're thinking and feeling...to be heard...to work it through...not to cure.

Let me know if I'm nuts...'cuz I'm counting on you to tell me when I get there...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA

So now that you're no longer in the heat of the moment, what do you think about this? He seems really uncomfortable with this site, even compared it to the level of discomfort you feel when he looks at porn sites. His feelings, you don't have to agree with them, but they are still legitimate and real. They are his.


His "demand" that you not come on here anymore -- is this a boundary of his or something said in the heat of battle? Is this something you could POJA? Give him full access, tell him how important it is to you and what you get out of it, and come up with something that will work for both of you as far as what details you post?



Did you listen and repeat? ask for clarification? What makes him feel punished every day? What does he mean by "be like this..."?



I think you should discuss it with him when you guys are not fighting. And I don't think that you should be sneaky about it, changing screen names or e-mailing, etc. I think you should be super transparent and O&H about this -- just as you'd want him to be with you. Let him read here whatever he wants whenever he wants. You take plenty of 2x4's, and you don't trash him -- I don't think there's anything to hide. Or tell him what you're posting, might be a good way to open up some good conversations.

Let him know what you get out of coming here and how important it is to you, and listen to what he says about how he feels about you coming here, and how important it is to him that you NOT do it. Then talk it out. See if you can both come to a compromise. Find the gray area, the middle. But definitely don't be sneaky about it.

-AmI.

Okay, you two...I do need to ask for clarity more often...I will try to do better.

He doesn't want me broadcasting his life here becasue our life should be b/t him and I. Not to mention, I'm making him out to be the "bad guy." These are his words. I believe this stems from his FOO. His M has repeated several times that our problems need to be worked out b/t him and I.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that. I do understand that all of it was about him and I took all of it in as information. Well, now that I have learned to control my emotions during a discussion I am hearing more. I just need to learn to validate.

My main concern was going behind his back and still posting here. I wouldn't want him to do that with his porn site, which he was doing. Just my thought but I don't see how he can compare this to porn, and I guess I WILL do it behind his back, just not when he's home at night and on weekends. I can't respect his wishes on this matter and for that I'm truely sorry.

LA- I fully understand what you are saying about linking my book to MB...even throught they were my SAA and HNHN. Yes, I'm refuting with you LOL.

I really don't think that I'm causing him to feel the way he does...I do feel that he is projecting his feeling onto me like I use to do...perhaps still am but I don't think so. NO!

Otay! Priority change here listen, repeat, then don't react, not don't react, listen and repeat.

well, that old belief I figured out the other day thanks to AmI needs some work...I think I see the cause and effect that you were mentioning.

he goes to store...I assoc. w/ OW, I think he knows I don't like it...he doing it on purpose. And I'm thinking he's going to see her again and this will be drag out forever.

Do you think I need to work on my beliefs? You know when you all spoke of changing your beliefs...this is not the kind of thing I thought about...I thought more core values...

I'm in a good place today, realy I am, my only concern is respecting his wishes which I can't. My concern is that I can't and really wanting to validate that it's okay, b/c I'm going to do it anyway...whether it's okay or not!

AmI-I just saw your post...I'll get to it soon!

Rin,

All you can do is start investing in your new reality.

State boundry.
He has two choices request approved, request denied.

All you can do is request for him to do it. You cannot force or make someone approve your request.

So when he denies your request there needs to be incremental enforcement of your boundry.

Me I tried everything then one day I realized I kept hearing request denied, request denied.

I kept getting upset, angry, hurt, you name it.

So FWW started requesting things. Not even boundry things. HL can I go to.... Well request denied.

Why should one person have the ability to deny realistic requests and then say I want....

Look if I ask you to call me if you are not coming home and you say you will. It takes me all of about 1 minute to dial my FWW's cell. Three minutes to tell her I am going out for a few drinks. If I don't do that it shows the effort I am willing to put into her requests.

Should I then expect her to approve my request to do something that would require a lot of effort? I would think not. I can't make the effort to call her but she should make an effort to do something even bigger for me.

If this happens enough times pretty soon one partner gets an understanding from the other how important they are to them.

I am in a spot now where I feel as though I should deny almost any request my FWW makes that would take me more then 10 minutes to do and requires anything more then minimal effort because that is what I have received from her. Not to mention the fights we had sometimes when I wasn't requesting something I needed it.

I would hope you clarify your boundries and tell your H that the amount of effort you SEE from him is the amount of effort he can expect in return.

I hope our MC can help me work through this issue with the FWW. I don't really know what to do about it.

I just don't want to see you get there.


You see that will be hard to do if he doesn't respect yours.

Rin,

MB provides tools to use in your marriage.

Porn provides objectification of humans (making them two-dimensional) for the purpose of...what? A tool for what?

He can compare it, believe it...and it doesn't make it the same, unless you choose to see it as the same.

Knowledge is a tool...visual images are not.

That's what I believe.

Choosing to believe you are going behind his back is another damaging belief. He knows you're doing it, you know you're doing it...your choice whether to continue to do so or not...no deception allowed.

"His M has repeated several times that our problems need to be worked out b/t him and I." To work out the old problems we need new tools...did you clarify what MIL meant? Meaning, you can do whatever it takes to get the knowledge, or is this about privacy, not airing dirty laundry or what others might think? Lots of gray area in that statement, don't you think?

Doesn't matter what MIL thinks...matters what WH thinks of what she says...and eradicating blame is exactly what listen and repeat does very well...no bad guys; just two humans in a human marriage...both can do damage...most likely, both will...doing something bad does not make you a bad person. Learning that difference is huge. Understanding NO ONE can make you the bad guy is another important point to understand...and you, dear Rin, need to understand that one FIRST.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And yes, this goes to exactly the kind of beliefs we talked about a long time ago...do I believe MBing is bad for my marriage? Do I believe it is the same as viewing porn sites? Do I believe that WH's intent is to hurt me when he goes to the store? What do I believe? Is it valid? New or old? Reasonable or unreasonable?

If your WH said "eating broccoli is the same thing as viewing porn...it's an annoying habit I want to you cease. I hate broccoli and I hate you eating it"...what would you do?

Know the difference between a boundary and wish...his boundary, his wishes...respect that he has them...defines them..."MB makes me feel uncomfortable." Is that a boundary or not? "If you choose to MB, I will choose to use porn." Can that BE a boundary enforcement?

I say all this because I was as lost inside my marital pattern with DH, that I couldn't see what was reasonable or unreasonable, distinguish between these things...and NOT believe that I was causing all of it...now I can.

Since you know you aren't the cause, why would your choice be to deceive by doing MB when he wasn't around? Isn't that like telling self you're wrong and you have to hide, but you're not the cause? Huh?

Wha?

Help me out...I'm confused.

"H, I hear you saying that you feel exposed, villified because of what I post on MB. People on this board consider all I post...anyone posts...to be about themselves...because that's all they can see. Unless you post, you aren't known...judged good or bad...you aren't there. My view, my filter of my life is there. It's all about me."

And it is...

Wonderful Rin and her hairy filter.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Hi Rin,
Your thread moves so fast I haven't caught up on everything! But I get the lastest is that FWH doesn't want you posting anymore.

I've thought about that on my end too. My FWH is very private about personal issues (thats why I edited one of my posts to you). He knows I go on MB alot. I don't try to hide it from him, he could easily check the history and see where I've been. I don't think he realizes how the forum works and that I post. I guess thats not O&H. He hasn't asked and I haven't lied but I also have not disclosed.

The way I look at it is that, I have a need to hash all the R stuff out. He REALLY does not want to talk about this stuff. Posting here I get different perspectives. No DJ because we have all been there done that. Kind of like AA its sharing not gossip. I don't really talk about this stuff to family and friends in RL. I know he really hates if he thinks I told our personal business to my Mom or sister or other friends. They don't understand it. And realistically, I want to reconcil w/ FWH. It would be hard to face them and get support if they knew every little thing. So its all here on the world wide web.

If he feels that uncomfortable w/ you coming here is he willing to talk about and hash all this stuff over w/ you so you have an outlet? What other outlet would he prefer? Does he understand what you gain from coming here? What you've learned from LA and others and how this has supported your M? Has he read your posts? Have you invited him to post as well?

I don't think you should hide it from him? I don't think you should do tit for tat. (LOL! you can tit for tat privately). I think you should negotiate POJA. He doesn't want you to post. MB is valuable to you. Whats the compromise? He be permitted to read your posts? A joint session w/SH to come up w/ a plan? Be creative but include him. We will be part of your life for a short time (w/ profound effectiveness of course.) You will be building your new life w/ him.

HI, LA and CC...just saw them...I will response. thank you!

AmI-I have given him full access from the beginning...have told him to read anything that he wants...he even read a few posts with me and asked me to say a few things for him. I will speak to him about it.

HL- being that our Ss are running the same race here, I feel that you can really relate to his demand (of course if I change it to request it sounds so much nicer).

I don't know...thanks everyone for your input...as always I appreciate it...I have questions and I need answers but we're only at 10 days NC. Can I really think that he's thinking logically right now?

okay, so I'm going behind his back (same as he has...bad deal), I'm not listening and repeating...validating him...thinking that my behavior is changing his...LA, Is this where you got cause and effort?

I feel like he's trying to control me! I didn't address the issue but I wanted to go out Sat. night, had a babysitter, he didn't want to go...I thought to myself...I can go without him...I should have asked... he can go out without me...so I thought the worst of him...bad, bad, bad, bad ME...I know...I've got to change that thinking and I should have just asked!

I don't want you doing reading those books, throw them away! I don't want you on the site bacause it's taking away time from us like I said his was. I don't want you doing this, I don't want you doing that...stop using abbrevations when talking to me (DJ)...I guess he forgot what I said about them...You can stop with the I think and if you think I'm going to use that stuff you have another thing coming...

So, I make assumptions he likes the old way b/c he always got his way...he's intimidated by my new found me...

I'm sick of the idle threats about putting me out of the house if I don't do this or don't do that...He's had enough...well, I have had enough.

Yes, I'm mad and I'm venting. He doesn't care that you all are my support...if I start going to church like I've been wanting to then I'm becoming like a friend of our...a church something...

It's almost like he's trying to push me out the door...repeating pack your [censored] or Do you want me to pack your [censored] or do you?

Boundaries, my beliefs...I know what I need to work on...more now then ever...assumptions...day in and day out...

I explained that I wasn't...never mind...I refuted and it doesn't matter b/c all he's looking for is the same thing I'm looking for when I want to talk to him...validatation, acceptance, and acknowledgement....I'm soooooo trying.

I'm sooo trying! Good news is MEds are working great...not sleeping all night but sleeping better. Sun. morning I crawled on the sofa and slept five consecutive hours...it was great!

I rreally want to scream but I'm calm just getting some emotions off my chest. I'm here...knowing what I need to do and trying my d!@nest. And , no if it weren't for MB, I would have dealt with the lawyer, which is still in my mind, I just keep thinking give it a year...give it a year, if things aren't better by then you can walk...

Just venting...O&H statements...DJS and stuff...I'm a little mad... handling this better then I would have.

I said to WH "Do you know that you never ask me about my day? I wait and wait, and then I just offer." He said "I never realized I didn't!" He was drunk/buzzing, not really drunk.

Clarify...

Yes, I get the 2X4 and not I don't think I bash him b/c if I did I would call him plenty of bad names...like the one he calls himself...

okay...I'm done! I'm in today!

Rin,

That is what I figured out.

When my wife requested something it was more like a demand.
What I mean is she might ask but if I say no she gets angry or upset. There were actually incremental enforcements of me not saying request approved.

When I made a request of my FWW it was more of a suggestion. If she said request denied it was fine.

First- You have a right to come to this board. Why is he opposed. He doesn't like his life broadcast to the whole world. Well what about the times you do broadcast it and he is the beneficiary of your changes?

Does he know that nobody here really bashes his actions they only advise you how to handle the sitch better?

You are on the right track and part of it is because you come here.

Now for today what can you do for yourself. Nothing M related or R related or A related.

Maybe go to home depot walk around and get a new router bit. LOL. Maybe make some signs that say adultry sucks then burn them to pieces. LOL.

Do something that makes you happy outside of the M.

Thanks LA and CC

You all make so much sense and no that's the real reason why I posted today because I tolsd him if I hid it from him then I would be doing the same thing he did and I wasn't going to do that. DId it alway, oopps! Sorry!

"or is this about privacy, not airing dirty laundry or what others might think?"

This nails it! WH is still mad that I exposed, and I told him I would do it again.

"Understanding NO ONE can make you the bad guy is another important point to understand...and you, dear Rin, need to understand that one FIRST."

Ooops, sorry, I know I'm not the bad guy but I guess I still think someone can make something, someone...whatever! Agh!

"If your WH said "eating broccoli is the same thing as viewing porn...it's an annoying habit I want to you cease. I hate broccoli and I hate you eating it"...what would you do?"

I would politily an respectfully tell him to kiss my...
Sorry, LA, I'm not very MB today...I'm working on it and I almost "get it". No, I got it!

CC- I will do my best. I will do be best. I have no love...none for him. I'll so red line...


Thanks HL- I like the sign thing...I got a 2x12x12 that would do perfectly. LOL

Oh, guess what...we might not be going to the rally...why?

because a friend told him that there's a lot of white power people there! LOL

I said screw it you can't have the fear of the unknown...

SO, all the [email]d@mn[/email] fighting yesterday orginial about the [email]d@mn[/email] rally and we may not be going!


LMFAO!!!!rolling on the floor! LOL

There are more answers to questions than yes or no:

"Do you want me to pack your [censored] or do you?"

"Neither."

Later...a drive-by...

"When you speak of leaving or making me leave, I feel rejected. I feel I am a problem instead of having one. Hey, did you catch the Broncos yesterday?"

You are your own power...you can feel controlled and KNOW you can't be...

"I don't want you doing reading those books, throw them away!"

"You don't want me reading self-help books. If you feel uncomfortable or upset when I do, then I understand your desire for me to throw them away."

"I don't want you on the site bacause it's taking away time from us like I said his was."

"I hear you want my time and attention. I agree. I will do MB when you are not here."

"I don't want you doing this, I don't want you doing that..."

"I'm here as your partner to know your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...and what I hear most are what you want and don't want."

"stop using abbrevations when talking to me (DJ)..."

"I can say "Disrespectful Judgment" instead, but it takes longer."

"I guess he forgot what I said about them..."

Rin, what? Huh? You guess he forgot?

"You can stop with the I think and if you think I'm going to use that stuff you have another thing coming..."

"I am listening and repeating to hear and understand what you are saying. Are you saying you believe I am attempting to make you hear and understand me? Is that why you are asking me to stop?"

"The way I look at it is that, I have a need to hash all the R stuff out. He REALLY does not want to talk about this stuff." Rin, you know his wants a lot...what about his feelings and thoughts? What he believes? Can you double enforce that hopper on your head and really hear...you have a real need to hash out all the R stuff...you mean state all your feelings, thoughts, beliefs...or need to extract his? Are you talking about settling on the rules of marriage, how to treat each other...or getting through withdrawal to recovery?

What exactly do you need to hash out?

Do you know if he doesn't care we're your support...or fears our influence? He has had a recent dose of external to marriage influence...and it wrecked his life...his choice. Healthy fear in part, don't you think, worrying if you'll take on external influences and see him as the vermin he may feel he is? Why not hear his fears, validate and acknowledge them. Don't act from them.

Now...go to level two of O&H inside yourself..."I want to scream" because I believe..."I feel so mad" because I believe...

Get to where your anger is coming from...idle threats? Or statements of fear? Statements of fear-driven anger? Consider his statements of you leaving, of putting you out of the house as real...show him you take him as real and use money, with a receipt to show him, that you consulted an attorney and found out that he couldn't put you out of the house legally.

You dwell in reality...soak in it, Marge...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Know your facts rather than refute..."I don't understand when you say do I want you to pack my stuff or me...are you asking me to leave our marriage?"

State truth...ask for clarification of it...and know yours from his...you are seeing communication as conflict...and it isn't...unless you choose to see it in that manner.

Define calm...and found out if you are presenting a calm exterior with a roiling interior...which is containment, not calm...and re-read how to get to calm (not containment).

Breathing is involved. A lot of it.

"Do you know that you never ask me about my day?"

THIS IS NOT AN O&H STATEMENT. This is an attack.

O&H is you stating your truth..."I believe you don't ask me about my day. I know this is how I perceive reality and may not be truth."

"I never realized I didn't!"...because his truth is that he asks every day...neither of you are lying or deceived...you're both perceiving, in your own way.

Do you need the actual words, "How was your day, Rin?" from his mouth? Those may be the exact words he dreads from you...an accounting, judgment, summary...lots of weight and pressure. To you, lots of attention, focus and caring.

"So what did you do next?" he asks while you recount something (voluntarily) and he is asking about your day in a way that makes him feel not examined, judged--and admired, instead.

Remember 5LOL...you loved that book...keep it present in your mind...perceiving you're being loved is different than they way you strive to love...

He calls himself names? Do you call yourself names? My DH said something that got through my warped, codependent mind...

"When you put yourself down, I feel hurt. I see you differently than you see yourself, and I feel pain when you attack yourself."

Heck...I was making jokes. I stopped doing that. Finally. 'Cuz he hurt. LOL. Helped us both.

What you will do to yourself, you will do to others...

What 2x4? Are you in actuality sharing that you felt what we wrote to you hit you upside the head, or hurt? Or was a reminder? Do your O&H statements here, too, for practice, 'k?

I believe...
I feel...
I think...

Judging what condition he is in when he speaks is a DJ...tell him you're taking him at his word, literally...in whatever state he speaks in...you will not DJ to mitigate or deny.

AmI was right on in her post on her thread...all this is easier, makes more sense, written down...it's LIVING it that is anything but simple. Get your basic beliefs lined up...and operate from there, Rin.

You're a little angry though you're handling all this better than you would have...does that mean you're judging how you were at the same time comparing it to how you want to be? What are you really angry about?

LA

Okay, I'm building my case on MB.

MB provides me not only with support but tools in an . It has helped my reunite with my FOO, helped me realize that I something see things in the wrond light, and have been disrespectful. I am also motivate to be more open-minded and non-judgemental of people and their choices. I have made friends who intelligent people who are wise, and insightful. It's important to me to have these type conversation because I enjoy the stimulation. Posting on MB also, gives me an outlet to sharing our marital life on an anonymous board.

MB has taught me to respect my children, yelling does not solve a problem, have more respect for myself, to be open and honest, and patient. Patience is something that I have not had very little of in the past.

I have been told things like own your part of the problems in your relationship; don't blame others for the things you have done. I have done this and can admit to a large number of things and still am examining my behavior.

Here are some things I am told in H's defense:

Stop assuming what he is doing...ask for clarity, clarification when I don't understand...listen and repeat...respect his requests as his...validate and acknowledge his feelings...

That I can't control him and to stop wanting what I want when I want it...


Please help my add to this list! please! What am I missing...what changes have you seen in me since I began? (You know when I'm not going downhill like I was/am today)

LA- I will post to you later! Thank you, because I would like to clarify some things.

No downhill...different rung, same darn pole, Rin.

No case to be built to refute WH...

Your choice remains your choice. To refute is to say you must persuade your WH to allow you the choice...which isn't real, is it?

All these reasons...which I have had personally...are valid for why you post on MB and have allowed us into your heart...extended that privilege...and why we have allowed you into ours...know that difference. This is why you do what you do...because only you can choose.

Is your fear disrespecting him? "I fear you will feel second place, not important, conspired against, judged by my choice to continue MB. That you may see my choice as going against our marriage instead of for it. I guess I fear your feelings and choices, too. I want to be a source of acceptance, admiration, appreciation and joy."

You don't get to be that source by your choice, but by his.

"Even in this MB issue, I can feel my control freakiness...I want to control your feelings and beliefs through my actions...I thought of doing MB behind your back. I know that's my ache to control, to not believe I am the source of distress or discomfort, rather than really know I'm not."

Easier, the old way, wasn't it Rin? To be the cause was to be the cure...to NOT be the cause is like krptonite to Super Rin, isn't it? Feels debilitating, powerlessness...difficult. No downhill...more uphill--just feels the same.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

"Define calm..."

I was calm inside and out. I didn't get mad until later that night when I felt like I couldn't check in. I got a little more mad thinking about it today. :::sign:::

"...you are seeing communication as conflict..."

I don't know what to say...I need to change that for me...

To be honest, LA, I've read your posts several times and I am speechless...

"Do you know that you never ask me about my day?"

THIS IS NOT AN O&H STATEMENT. This is an attack."

That just shows you how much I thought I knew...still learning the process...and I'm glad you mentioned different rung same darn pole b/c I felt like I fell a few flights of stairs today...the pole...being thoughtless and/or inconsiderate!

I see disrespect as been thoughtless and /or inconsiderate. I want to take his feelings into consideration when making my choices and I felt that I couldn't and that's why I got mad! I want him to be happy for me that I have a place to come to...wanting what I want when I want it! My selfishness! Wanting what I want when I want it...I have to repeat that twice...control freak...I'm trying to control the conversation but refuting..like interrupting...just the same but different...listen and repeat...

"Easier, the old way, wasn't it Rin?"

Of course it is...powerlessness...yes...

Okay, I lost my footing when stepping up...being still. All the answers point to me wanting...all of them...

Being still!

Hi, all! H and I had a really good conversation...His main concern: It's my view of things and he's getting bashed. I invited him to read anything and everything again. I explained that it was important to me and why.

We talked about me going out by myself...he would prefer that if I were to a bar it be with friends...I said understandable that he was concerned for my wellfare. He said that he tries to reserve all his bike talk for bike night with the guys. I thanked him for it saying that I was interested int he topic but not that interested in the topic.

There were other topics like he is concerned that I'm being influence here but if I understood correctly it's b/c I'm stopping doing the things we use to enjoy. we talked about the rally this weekend...for my protection and our friends he decided that we shouldn't go because if someone said something to me or one of our friends I fight might ensue.

So, we're trying to find something else to do for the weekend; however, a friend of our said that he would check out the situation when he got to the rally and if everything looked fine that he would call us to come up.

It's been a good night and I asked a lot of questions. Validated...LA!! WOOHOO!

GO RINDY! GO RINDY! I'm gettin there...

Tonight was the first night in a long time that I didn't feel any tension . Of course, we stick together when people we have a mutual cause...from time to time we've had to deal with looking at us as an interracial couple and not two people.

Oh, LA, no case to build...k', just speaking from my heart saying that I enjoyed the intelligent conversation that I got here and that I've made some great friends. To top it off blindsided06 emailed me tonight and I responded...

She's doing well and said she will be back on the boards after Ernesto's threat has subsided.

Now, I didn't post everything in H and I conversation trying to maintain a little discreetness for his sake...I feel like I stepped up a rung...moving away from that pole that keeping getting me...all that anxiety today for what?

Nothing, as usual, fear of the unknown...I find it's the biggest fear that rules us...could just be me...I understand where H is coming from one the weekend...wanting to protect me and his friends from anything unnessacary but I told I felt that the fear was unfounded but agreed with him.

As it stand how, we will probably keep the sitter and go to Baton Rouge to stay with some friends. we'll trailer both bikes and hopefully I can get some ride time in too.

In talking about this weekend H mentioned sending me to the rally so that one of us could experience it...I said that like me saying that you could go before I got the sitter...I asked "Did you want to go without me?" He replied "No." I said "Well, at least that's one of the things I've learned, that your main EN is Quality Time with me. I wouldn't want to go without you!"

So, all is well and I have learned alot...enough said!

Good Night and thanks to all of you wonderful people for your time, energy, and beautiful words of wisdom, you are all super amazing!

Can someone explain or break down enmeshment?

I can't even explain what I know about it. Some brief examples would be great also.

Thank you in advance!

Enmeshment...great question, Rin...

I got the image where there are two people...and neither knows where each of them ends and the other begins...

When his reactions determine your reactions...which determine his reactions...that endless circle...

When he causes feelings, thoughts or beliefs in you, and you do in him...

I read yesterday, though, that we become enmeshed with others (begins naturally with our mothers), later, it is our self-images that become enmeshed...our true selves cannot be...hence, always separate. Our self-images are dependent on how we can make ourselves best perceived by others to get our needs met. Makes sense why we feel less intimate and close when two self-images are being projected for them to entwine, enmesh.

As infants, we are absolutely dependent on our caretakers...they have proven that we don't see ourselves as separate from them...we learn through those terrible twos and threes that we are, in fact, separate beings...and that's a scary idea. I think we might learn then that what we choose to perceive (we are one with Mom) becomes our reality...instead of accepting we are not one and not one is okay, valid and healthy.

Anyway...in adult relationships, if we continue this pattern, to get what we need, continue external caretakers, we remain enmeshed. Instead of basic physical needs, we are looking to get emotional needs met...to fill our voids, earn our way, see ourselves as one (which we're taught about marriage); each being responsible for the other...

And as we've seen, that system, that balance, breaks to pieces when either one refuses to take care of the other's needs (often seeing them as unfillable, experiencing daily failure), or goes outside the marriage, cutting off or replacing their partner.

I believe enmeshment serves as a fog generator, Rin. "You made me go elsewhere" would be a key statement...you made me...seemingly, a separate self, albeit, a helpless, powerless self...being controlled by others. Perceived reality...not reality...human choice remains, whether we see it or not.

That's why I go for injecting respect...separate and equal...first acknowledging human power and limits...to break enmeshment...which is a perspective from hidden beliefs...emphasizing choice recognition...including choosing to love and not earning it.

I think it's reasonable to be enmeshed in a marital relationship...I believe it most closely examples our early parental enmeshment, formed in our first relationship, and we attempt to work out a lot of those issues in our marriage.

Not crazy, or psychobabble...life's journey, interwoven...lots of symbols and experiences re-occur...those poles on our spiral staircase...not sick or wrong...our own issues. Ours. Individually.

Don't step over the irony...I'm beginning to see where irony is a signal...

When either my DH or I say, "We're in this together," we are really saying we are two separate people choosing to be in the union together...where before, we were one, and one of us seemed to be always wanting to get out of it.

LA

Okay, thanks LA...

I'm still not sure I "get" the whole thing but what I now understand it whyit's often said that ___are not the cause, cure for...Are the question arises are you trying to be the cause or are you trying to cure...

Now, I understand that those questions are relationed to enmenshment which helps me to look to that area. I will review your post possible several most times...not that you didn't do a great job of explaining just the pieces will into place.

"When either my DH or I say, "We're in this together," we are really saying we are two separate people choosing to be in the union together...where before, we were one, and one of us seemed to be always wanting to get out of it."

I know that I was looking for a way out before...I was extremely unhappy and if I can say this apparently H was to resulting in the A. Did I get that correct? Now, I want my M and am handling things I would have not considered dealing with before...yet now, I'm hearing from H that "I can pack my stuff." His enmenshment...not mine...or am I assuming that?

I don't want to go anywhere...I believe that we can have a better M then...before yesterday...definitily before A...

"When his reactions determine your reactions...which determine his reactions...that endless circle..."

Oh, I know plenty about this...Boomerang Relationship!

It's becoming a little more clearer...it's a huge concept to engulf...I think my pole has a new name!

Actually I named mt first pole selfishness, and my second thoughtlessness/inconsideateness...I will have to give that some thought...wondering if they could be the same...