Rin,

Here is the definition of enmeshement.


For me the way I look at it is this.

A M is not about two halves coming together to make a whole. It is about two wholes coming together to make something better.

At some point you cannot differentiate between what makes you whole and what makes him whole. You are so caught up in him you forget about you.

You need to remember you and what makes/made you a whole so you can be a better W.

Take ownership of yours and yours alone when you can do that you will become less enmeshed.

It is hard when the other person won't take ownership of theirs but that is not your problem.

That is why detachment and indifference have helped me. It has untangled me from what she should own. I cannot make her own it but now I don't either. Nor will I spend a considerable amount of time and energy to try to get her to see she is the owner.

If she decides against ownership then she is a renter/freeloader and I will look at my M as though she is a tenant or a freeloader and base my expectations on that. However I will also base what I will and will not do for her on that too.

Before I did things for her as though she was an owner. I will not do that until I she that she is an owner.

I am no longer enmeshed. If she had a bad day I will be respectful of that I will not however be the person she takes it out on.

I know I talk funny...(Picture Slingblade and give me a Billy Bob "UhHuh" grunt, will ya?)

I don't know why my posts are so difficult...people have a hard time reading them...heck, I struggle to write them...but I know they are. I know I have a long way to go with my communication skills...I think I go through a long process to get to my sentences...from intangible feelings and thoughts, interpreted froms symbols and flashing images, into audible, typed back into visual. I lose my own self in the translation.

Plank, Pep, Ark...any of you out there could help a woman out by building a shortcut, I'd appreciate it.

Rin, this is me sort of apologizing for being a Sphinx without the wisdom of the ages...and not apologizing because it truly is everything in me, my highest intent, to not be obscure or enigmatic.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Of course, maybe God wants me to be the most re-read author...lol...being read at all is a blessing...I'll talk to him about ease of use and ingest with caution.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You both remain enmeshed...his "you can pack your stuff" is a low-level communication technique...ask him why he believes he can tell you to end your marriage? How does he see himself, his power and limits...which are the same as yours...in the marriage and separate, as a human?

Your enmeshment comes with the pain when he makes those rejecting statements...they are emotional threats...and when you take them as something to refute, argue, transform or change...then you are reacting from enmeshment, instead of respecting that's his statement, vague as fog...don't take it as clarity, 'cuz it isn't, is it?

Yes, your poles and the naming of them...I remember. Think of the themes of your life...mine are...

Abandonment/Presence
Debt/Gratitude
Rejection/Acceptance

Two sides...one the absence...the negative...the other, what is desired, the antidote, you might say...

And yeah, here's where the pole analogy seemingly loses it's effectiveness...two sides to a pole? What the heck? Only these aren't two, clearly defined sides...negative and positive...you'll find one running into the other...and one running out of the other...around and around...so the metaphor holds up ('cuz I MAKE it hold up).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I could be too weird to breathe, Rin...sometimes I read what you quote that I wrote and bow my head, perplexion as my complexion...and sigh with really old air in my exhale...because my desire is to share, to connect, to know I am not alone (and I'm not, dear twin)...and being difficult to understand won't help that. Look how much you and others put in the deep effort, though. Gives me the feeling I'm worth it...a lot more work...more payoff.

Am I close?

We're in this together, Rin...

LA

"Your enmeshment comes with the pain when he makes those rejecting statements...they are emotional threats...and when you take them as something to refute, argue, transform or change...then you are reacting from enmeshment, instead of respecting that's his statement, vague as fog...don't take it as clarity, 'cuz it isn't, is it?"

Actually, I can say wholeheartly that the comments he made regarding my past and packing my stuff did not bother me...I just let them slide...figuring it was "fog talk".

The enmeshment came when I was requested to stay off this site...throughtout the whole conversation this is the one thing that stuck in my mind...amazing huh? However, I would like to know what he thinks regarding that. I've been to a lawyer and he knows it...I've told him that he wouldn't get the kids in this state that I would get the house and there would be joint custody. I have all the paperwork here at work with child support number, which I told him how much he would end up paying.

I think that where my confusion is...I've stated the facts to him and yet he still says this....????

I have to go but I'll be back...H is at the Dr....sinus infection I'm sure!

HL- beautifully put...

I see where you get the renter/freeloader from...and I also see that I'm trying to "hash"/"control" H to take that ownership...I remember asking him in the conversation about HN that he see his part in what led up to her and I confrontation, not the confrontation itself...which I see he had no part in...

I would think that the best way to handle this is...not just HN thing but all of it would be to "let it go"

I know that I can not make him see or do anything...yet I've been trying to get him to "own"...

What's the sense? It's wasted energy, I think!

I'm getting a little better sense of what enmeshment means...thank you...

No problem.

I think the biggest problem I had though was taking ownership when the FWW wasn't.

What I mean by that is: a situation arises IE she crosses my boundry. I try to enforce it. At some point it turns into an argument. She DJ's me. I then DJ her. She tells me I was wrong for my DJ's. I was so I take ownership. Then I look at her and she doesn't take ownership of hers. She doesn't even want to take ownership of crossing my boundry. It becomes about what I did wrong.

It would confuse and anger me. Why should I take ownership when all that means is she can even more easily point to me as the problem. HMMMM. It became circular argument. Usually always coming back to what I took ownership of.

So now I am not enmeshed and I do not need for her to take ownership. I will because I know what I did was wrong. That is what made me a whole person knowing right from wrong and acting accordingly.

But when she doesn't take that ownership it just means I can't trust her ability to decern right from wrong. More importantly when you do something wrong since you don't take ownership it requires no words, deeds or actions on her part to help deal with the consequences.

So now I try not to be enmeshed. I own mine and if she doesn't I then ACT accordingly.

You must remember though that you seem enmeshed and he seems to project his feelings onto you. You must not let that happen either.

This might be a chicken and egg thing. He projects so you are enmeshed or you are enmeshed because he projects.

There doesn't seem to be a clear line in his mind that him being in a bad mood doesn't mean you are.

We all know our spouses. I know when my FWW is in a bad mood or edgy. I try to respect that and give time to unwind. But when that happens because I am a little quiter she always asks me what is wrong with me. Nothing is wrong I just feel like keeping my head on my shoulders today and you seem to want to take it off so my best course of action is to keep my mouth shut. LOL. BTW I am not stupid enough to really say that but sometimes that is what I am thinking.

Other nights like last night I couldn't deal with her attitude so I just told her to stop. I am not a doormat. She said OH so it is always me. I said nope but right now it is.

HL-

"Then I look at her and she doesn't take ownership of hers. She doesn't even want to take ownership of crossing my boundry. It becomes about what I did wrong."

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's this an expectation...also like me expecting/wanting H to own his stuff. I'm there with you...I see it with H and I.

"There doesn't seem to be a clear line in his mind that him being in a bad mood doesn't mean you are."

There wasn't and it still hangs me up...like the tapping of the foot...I ask he's okay...he says yes..tapping, tapping, tapping...I think It's me and he's not telling me (DJ)...then he gets upset....on and on...

"I know when my FWW is in a bad mood or edgy. I try to respect that and give time to unwind. But when that happens because I am a little quiter she always asks me what is wrong with me. Nothing is wrong..."

LMAO

This is what happens with us...I finally have got to the point where I say "Why does something always have to be wrong with me?" Then, I answer the question.

I feel ya' HL, I fell ya'... LOL

Rin,

Are you saying that the pack-your-stuff routine is from the past, your ONS? How have you guys been doing in processing his feelings on that?

Your confusion is because he has the facts and acts as if he doesn't through his statements? Respect he has the facts and does not act as though he does...that is a wayward state of mind...he has great difficulty in communicating what he wants to...your clarify to understand, not to judge, will help...just your part...not fixing...the control freakiness can echo, long after we stop doing it...doesn't mean we can fix what they hear...knowing what they hear will help with our own confusion.

Last night, my DH spoke more about how strongly he believes control/not controlled plays into his thoughts, perspectives and perceptions...he says it is what he is most reactive to...sensitive...whether it's there or not.

Very difficult to put into words; layered and complicated he said. Trust is very involved...and complicated, as well.

I'm passing this along to you to show you what I heard...and yes, last night, my urge to get whatever I haven't gotten, to know what I don't know, was really high and I reacted with frustration...and realized, I want to already be there...my kid was saying that inside...enough...get there...and today, my adult self is reminding the kid that there is no "there"...it's all a journey.

So I'm pouting.

LOL

No test, Rin...I promise. No failure at this...another day, another rung...always upward...no other measurement necessary...ease up on you, 'k?

LA

Wow, Rin ... your thread moves fast, I can hardly keep up. I am glad things are going better, and happy that your H is ok with you posting here again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I like the enmeshment stuff, great topic, thanks for bringing it up. I'm trying to learn this myself!

And I hope that the bike rally actually does work out and turn out to be fun for you both. My MIL and FIL started riding motorcycles in the last couple ofyears, and my MIL is a fanatic about going to bike rallies. It cracks me up because she is very conservative and mild, so it seems so out of character for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


LA, I love reading your writing, because it 'sounds' like real speach, and like it's just pouring right out of your heart. It's not always simple to understand, but neither are the real emotions and concepts. I think you're great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

HA! Talk about moving fast -- you both posted in the time I was typing. I think I just post toooooooo slow!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

Yes it is an expectation. But getting caught up in my personal beliefs vs her personal beliefs and then not standing up for mine is the problem. Interpersonal diffentiation was lost. I don't know if I am articulating it correctly. If I wasn't enmeshed it wouldn't bother me as much.


Now when she is in a bad mood I will not take ownership of being in one. I may be a bit wary to be around you, I may be a little quite. I am however fine.

She did it last night. I would not let it effect me or bring me down because her mood and feelings do not dictate my mood and feelings.

I had a good day. I had a birthday to celebrate and I would not get dragged into it.

She is stressed out, new job, kids starting school etch. I handle stress better. So I am fine she is a little bit of a mess. I picked up some of the slack but left some for her.

But that is how it is going to be. Hers is hers. Mine is mine.

If she choses to change and make the best of a bad sitch great. If not that is how I chose to deal with it so it doesn't really effect me as much.

We have a lot to do during our days. Doesn't mean I have a right to take it out on someone else.

No longer are my days and nights spent worrying about how she always feels. I need to worry about how I feel too.

LA-"Are you saying that the pack-your-stuff routine is from the past, your ONS?"

No, he's bring up my past, and telling me now that he should have told me to pack my stuff and leave...has never said anything like that before that I can remember.

"LA, I love reading your writing, because it 'sounds' like real speach, and like it's just pouring right out of your heart. It's not always simple to understand, but neither are the real emotions and concepts. I think you're great"

I also have to second that opinion...I like it...and I perfer to write in that style too!

AmI- I wanted to say thank you for reminding that "it's a new day!" I forgot for a little while! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh, "...your H is ok with you posting here again..."
I didn't say he was ok with it but I'm not hiding it. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HL-" But getting caught up in my personal beliefs vs her personal beliefs and then not standing up for mine is the problem. Interpersonal diffentiation was lost."

I think this is a very powerful statement and I do understand what you are trying to convey. I feel like I understand more where you are coming from now.

"No longer are my days and nights spent worrying about how she always feels. I need to worry about how I feel too."

WOW! I have wasted so much time doing this...need I say more?

LOL, oops, guess I didn't read that right! Maybe wishful thinking on my part, huh?

Sorry!

IT's okay...You just gave me a good laugh...which is always a wonderful thing!

Enmeshment...that's what the whole problem was with me and HIS request...

Old not new...

Today...I'm new! LOL Tomorrow I may be old, but I'm shotting for new! LOL

I needed clarification so I find this and wanted to share it. I hope that you enjoy and it's valuable.



Self-Differentiation is a progressive, internal interplay between autonomy (separation) and connection (togetherness) while progressing toward developing and known goals.

Being an authentic adult is hard work and a never completed task. The pathway is paved with difficulty and challenge.

To become an adult, every person faces the task of the differentiation of self .

Not to differentiate is to fuse (the failure to become a separate person) with others and to place responsibility on others (or on situations, predicaments, and hurdles) for the way in which our lives develop. To differentiate is to provide a platform for maximum growth and personal development for everyone in your circle of influence.

Differentiation is described in many ways in the following points:

1. Growing in the ability to see where and how I fit into my family, the position I hold and the power that is and is not given to that position.
2. Growing in the ability to be fully responsible for my own life while being committed to growing closer to those I love.
3. Intentionally developing, at the same time, autonomy and intimacy. In developing autonomy I set myself towards achieving my dreams and ambitions. In developing intimacy, I allow those close to me to see and know me as I really am.
4. Being willing to say clearly who I am and who I want to be while others are trying to tell me who I am and who I should be.
5. Staying in touch with others while, and even though, there is tension and disagreement.
6. Being able to declare clearly what I need and requesting help from others without imposing my needs upon them.
7. Being able to understand what needs I can and cannot meet in my own life and in the lives of others.
8. Understanding that I am called to be distinct (separate) from others, without being distant from others.
9. Understanding that I am responsible to others but not responsible for others .
10. Growing in the ability to live from the sane, thinking and creative person I am, who can perceive possibilities and chase dreams and ambitions without hurting people in the process.
11. Growing in the ability to detect where controlling emotions and highly reactive behavior have directed my life, then, opting for better and more purposeful growth born of creative thinking.
12. Deciding never to use another person for my own ends and to be honest with myself about this when I see myself falling into such patterns.
13. Seeing my life as a whole, a complete unit, and not as compartmentalized, unrelated segments.
14. Making no heroes, taking no vicitims.
15. Giving up the search for the arrival of a Knight in Shining Armour who will save me from the beautiful struggles and possibilities presented in everday living.
16. Paying the price for building and living withing community.
17. Moving beyond “instant” to process when it comes to love, miracles, the future, healing and all the important and beautiful things in life.
18. Enjoying the water (rather than praying for it to be wine), learning to swim (rather than trying to walk on water).

So that's a new statement...him sharing that he has to work out that he stayed...back then, did he share his grief and all his feelings? Do you think you heard all of what he felt back then...or since?

And on writing as I do...thanks for the reinforcement...the acceptance...because I don't know another way yet.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(And that's to AmI, too.)

Proud of you for being honest about your choices, Rin.

LA

Nope, I strongly feel that it wasn't resolved, hence what I said when I started my first thread about being one of the reason for his A. Over the years, he would "throw it up in my face" from time to time. I felt like it was just swept under the rug, which I don't want to happen with this one.

Like when OP would call here...I would immediately call H and let him know that I had talked to him and OP should be calling H on his cell. OP would never call H. When I answered the phone and it was OP, I would be very brief and just let him know where H was and to call him. H is still friends with OP, I am not and don't talk with him.

When I told H, he didn't even tell OP he knew...one day OP called him an apologized, that's when H tols him he knew.

Says a lot doesn't it...do you still feel it's enmeshment like you stated back then?

Honesty...it's in my blood. Just ME! LOL Thanks!

"You Are My Sunshine
My only sunshine.
You make me happy
When skies are grey.
You'll never know, dear,
How much I love you.
Please don't take my sunshine away" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

GOOD MORNING EVERYONE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That is my special little song today and my wish to you! It will be pouring down raining here but my heart will be shining! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

H and I had another great night. The Dr. gave him a shot and he went home and went straight to sleep. I woke him up at 7:30 to go eat so he could take his medicine. When we got home we spent the kids in bathe and we went to the garage to "wipe the bke down." We talked about everything under the sun from motorcycles to this weekend to our M and about each other! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Come to find out H thinks that I have turned away from my wild side, hence conversation about contests at the biker rally. H feels that I have let OP opinions consume me, that I use to not worry about what OP thought and now I do. I can see why he thinks that, my anxiety disorder has really played a part in that. I think I've got so much better having faced alot of my fears.

We talked about HN and MB. AmI , I have to thank you for some of your post saying that "I wasn't trashing him." I showed him that not only one but all of you were saying to validate his feelings. To me he looks a little uncomfortable but he read the few I showed him. I was looking for AmI's on not trashing him when I first started. I

We were in the garage talking and he said he would "let" me go back on if I wasn't always talking about him. So when we went inside after he checked the weather I pulled it up and showed him that what he was thinking I was saying about him was unfounded. I said that's why I said when I started posting that he was more than free to read anything that I wrote.

We changed the topic so many times and talked about so many different things. I mentioned my A, it was relavent to the conversation on hunting. My ONS was on a night that he was gone for the weekend. I told him about the blonde hair trigger the other night. He told me that he doesn't enjoy hunting as much as he use to. He feels that he takes up to much of his time. He finds that he enjoyed riding his HD and feels it's his true passion.

He loves his job regardless of the stress involved because he can see a finished product when he's done. I talked about how I feel I've lost myself in the pass eight years with the changes from us being carefree to parents to parents again. We talked about how we feel we've lost our bestfriend and just different things like that.

H said that he's trying to explain to HN in the past that I was raised as an only child and that I enjoy spending time with myself. HN is needy and always has to have people around.

H was even using terms like: I perceive...this is what I see...if I'm wrong correct me...

We could have talked all night and he even said "okay, I have to go to sleep are I'll talk all night."

We didn't talk about in depth stuff but I didn't need to. He asked why it was bothering me about bike night, so I explained that when we started the Thurs. thing it was date night, then it changed to bike night and now that OS is in school I can't go due to babysitters. I said that I felt it was taking away from time with us.

I asked he was wondering if I was worried that he wasn't where he said he was. He said no. I said I don't worry about that but it really bothers me when he doesn't call me and let me know if he's going to be late or what his plans are. I said that bothered me because he was seeing OW when I thought he wasn't.

We were both in a good mood and very relaxed. I even mentioned that I was trying to find a group to join to make my own friends and that out of all the things he said Sunday that the one thing that stuck out in my mind was I felt that he was trying to take me away from you all. I said that there's no one post where I don't thank you, say that I appreciate you, value your insights, etc.

H is really big on friends and helping freinds and family. He always had people around him growing up. Sunday was family day and I didn't have that. My family was usually just the three of us.

I really felt like we were trapped in the truck on a road trip because that's when we have had talks like this. Just talking about anything and everything...just O&H. I had my top three ENs filled. Even though, H hasn't done the ENQ, I know I filled QT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />from 5LOL, SF <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, and words of affirmation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

I told him that my worst fear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> right now was not having a better M than we had before and althought his A was devastating to me that I did think of it as a blessing to help us move on the right track. We talked about the way he felt punished and him saying that I talked about it everyday. Which he meant everyday at the beginning....oh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I said yes I did, at the time, I wanted you to feel the pain and hurt that I was feeling. I explained that the day that I started hitting him was the turning point for me and that I learned what unconditional love was that day. I said that I wondered how he could being me shopping after I had done something so terrible to him. After I got home and was sitting on the floor folding clothes,that I teared up, feeling so horrible about my behavior. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As you can see we talked alot about so many things about him, about me, and about us. I mentioned that I had a lot of questions for him, and that I felt regret about my ONS, that if he had done what I have done regarding exposure and stuff that I feel we wouldn't be were we are today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So, needless to say, this was the second night that we talked and before going to sleep I thanked him for a wonderful night. He simply replied "your welcome!" and to sleep we went.

Wow, girl.

All I can say is WOW!!!

Sounds like a great night!!

Thanks AmI...I don't want to get my hopes up...my heart is filled perhaps not filled up, but it's never taken alot for me with him...

We talked for four or five hours. It's was after 1am before we went to sleep! I want to say it was about 9pm when we started and it was like we didn't want to shut up. Remember when you were a kid and a friend would come over and sleep and you laid in bed and talked until one of you fell asleep, it was close to that!

I'm LOLing, Rin...your song lyrics...which I heard you singing in my head...

And I'm laughing because after learning about enmeshment, dependency issues, filling myself up from the outside...love addiction and avoidance addiction, music took on a new meaning. Some much beloved songs are now heard as addict songs.

This is one of them. Doesn't change how I love the music...but I take issue with the DJ right there in the lyric and the addict stuff.

That song was written by a governor of a southern state, I believe...

Had to share with you...yeah, I take stuff to extremes...I know. DH and I have fun with this, though...we both were profoundly affected by music growing up...me, moreso by lyrics, him by instrumental.

Anyway...forget whether your hopes get up or not...know you had a marvelous evening of connection...sharing each of your truths, and from the sound of it, really hearing and acknowledging, not telling each other what not to feel or think.

And you can always tell him that I bash you all the time...not him. LOL Unless he comes here to post, I don't get to do that.

Darn.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(Hope you know my intent is not to bash...even when you feel bashed.)

LA