Rin,

My view is similar to Rogue's. As I stated in my post yesterday the lack of SF was compounding the other things going on.

My grandma used to say "I don't care where your grandpa gets his appetite as long as he comes home to eat" Now she was secure in her M so I can understand her point of view. When an A has happened you have a fear he might not come home to eat. He might stop at a fastfood place.

There is an inherent difference between men and women. Men are usually visually stimulated in the SF dept and women are usually emotionally stimulated in the SF dept. Not saying always.

Think of when men are donating to fertility clinics they don't hand them a romance novel or a book on baseball. They give them material that is visably stimulating.

I think that many people think that if a man views another women in some form or undress they are comparing their S to those people. In some cases I believe that to be true but not in all cases.

I mean from what you have wrote it does not seem as though he is addicted to porn.

At what point does it bother you? I am not going to call my FWW at work and say listen I really need a release. So far the full service line has been closed do you mind if I go to self service? Oh btw I may need some visual stimulation do you mind. Heck my FWW would be all for it especailly if she was not in the mood. How freaking uncomfortable would that conversation be.

Do the kids use the computer? If so I think it is pretty irresponsible not to erase your tracks. The other day my FWW wanted to check out a sporting goods site. She typed in the name she thought was right and it was a porn site. LOL. I sit down later and she didn't erase the history. I was a little upset. The kids use that computer. All I need them to do is start typing something in and clicking on that site. LOL.

As far as the friend finder website. Many websites deposit cookies in your cache.(sounds dirty) They identify your activity on the computer and the information you put in. For instance my FWW checks the whether everyday. She puts in our zip code and that is stored on our computer until I erase the cookies and history. It identifies our city. Now if I got to a site and it searches my cache it sees where I live and directs specific area's to me. I go to a website that is one of those funny ones geared toward my demographic. It has funny videos and pictures and games but they link to adult friend finder. So if I don't have a good pop up blocker I am now on adult friend finder it knows where I am based on the cookie and says meet girls in my city. So if he didn't click on further pictures I would say you have nothing to worry about.

I will let you digest this then maybe post more later.

Thank you both for posting...I'm still thinking, but I wanted to share that this is my laptop that he bought me for Christams....NO KID USAGE...I'd break a finger if they so much as touch it or slide it over.

Not really break a finger..but they know that's off limits!

I'm processing and please continue...

Oh, I do want to mention that I'm not a romance novel fan at all...however, I do fantasy about being romantic...what things are romantic...not a who...usually with H...a what would I like thing...

now...if he is doing something similar I can understand better...seems to be there's really not much difference...

like I said I don't want to apply a double standard in my M...so I'm information gathering...

Oh, HL- I like the lingeria site you recommended if I didn't say that earlier...

I'm going to take my time and think about this subject, me, and H really hard before I come to a firm conclusion...i would like to hear more from him also...

Well thank you. They were a customer of mine for a while so I like to give them props.

I had some porn sites as customers too. LOL. Imagine selling a product to the Parents Television Councel and a Porn company. I had to laugh at that one.


Is what you would like a reality? I mean are you COMPARING your husband to something else? An image of something you have seen, heard, or experienced in the past.

I know a lot of people take offense to men and porn. I respectively submit that many a chick flick, or romance novels or comercials geared toward women are just as damaging. The commercial for the diamond ring company. A man takes his wife to rome for their anniversary. Then proclaims at the top of his lungs I love you and would marry you all over again and presents her with a huge rock. Oh how romantic, I wish my H would do that. Well guess what I have two kids, I can't afford the trip or the rock. The movies or TV shows that the women has it soooooo bad that she is forced into the arms of another man. The man that is perfect. She by the way is perfect too it is all the H's fault.

Think about how it is portrayed. If a man commits A he is horrible if the women does it is understandable.

What the media is doing is depicting what the demographic responds too. Men respond to scantily clad women. I might not buy the product but I probably will watch the comercial. Women respond to feelings and emotions. OH and the words PERCENT OFF. LOL. Not in all cases.

Look at the new Victoria's secret commercials running right now for their new bra. Who is it geared too. MEN. That is right MEN. Why? I might think it is because that bra costs 40-50 bucks. Man wants wife to have said bra so he is not going to say no to the money. Ah ha. Kill two birds with one stone.

I am glad you are taking your time with the subject. Double standards suck in an M.

Think about why it really bothers you and address that. IMVHO I do not think all men compare the women with their W's. I see you read my post about how I see my FWW.

I don't think I am the only man that thinks that way.

Rinderella,

Been there not over it yet unfortunately. I found it in history about 3 months after NC. Found it on my computer, then found it on his computer. I held onto it and monitored to see how often he was going to visit.

I was devestated. It made me feel like I was not enough. I was physically in the best shape I have been in years, it was almost 7 days a week, there could be no complaints about SF needs. It did not make sense to me. He had never been one to do this stuff before. No porn mags in my house.

Rather than say anything I just kept quiet and monitored his activity. I wanted to make sure I wasn't dealing with an addiction. Which I was and am certain it is not.

I did not confront him about it until I developed some concerns that it was interferring with our intimacy. He had been on one day and wasn't ready and raring to go that night. Unfortunately, the 6 times in one day hasn't happened since our early twenties. Once a day is about all that we can do.

When I brought it up to him I initially got about the same response that you did. He was very defensive. Upset that I had been checking up on him. Fear that I would never let go came out. Concerned that I was having difficult time because I am more sensitive to it. Of course.

Basically told me he just looks. Doesn't buy. Oddly likes the one that doesn't show anything. Which fits to what charges his batteries. Gets more of a kick out of reading the script. Doesn't have a login, etc. Appears to be correct in that. Have access to all accounts cannot find where he has paid for anything. As he calmed down I was able to get that all important question in. What do get out of it that you are not getting from me? Nothing. Very pleased with SFs.

I took a step further and consulted with professional on addiction.

Conclusion I have come too. There are no signs of addiction. Pattern is inconsistent. Tends to happen only when he has down time, day off, or I have withdrawn. Periods of weeks to two months with no record in history. I know how to check even if he deletes in history.

It does bother me quite a bit. But at this point it is about our moral point of view on the matter. In our early years we would watch porn together. But years ago I realized that in doing so I was encouraging something that I don't believe in. Which is that pre-marital and extra-marital sex are damaging -- just my POV by experience. I do not feel right looking at another person in that way. Not that anything I ever saw was appealing at all. It was more of getting ideas.

In the meantime, If I suspect an addiction and feel the need I'll start digging.

Take it for what it is worth. Not everyone who looks at porn is an addict. Just like everyone who drinks a beer is not an alcoholic. For me it is a moral battle with my H that I am chosing not to fight at this time. Not ignoring, just not my focus. Not my most important LB.

HI, BA, welcome! You nailed alot of what I have been thinking...I haven't thought of him being an addict...not in his nature...for anything...he doesn't like something having that much control...and you really nailed it with the beer thing! Great JOB!

I find it's more about how I feel about myself...and the great big DJ, if he's looking at this then he'll look somewhere's else...

So, I have that much figured out...I need to think on self and talk to H...I would like to understand...

And I believe you can POJA on this...


Oh, LA...that's why I love you so much...your the OS I never have...is that okay...I said older? LOL

I'm cool with most of this, and I'm going to practice what I'm not doing so well with. Oh, I have to go back to work. I'll be back in a minute.

Okay, HL, I still would appreciate hearing your input when you have the time but I'm going to change the subject and try to focus on me and my past...

Being a child of sexual abuse (I was 9, and big long story...went through IC, and more C w/mom.)...b/c I'm thinking that this may have something to do with it...

Just keep that in mind...I'm not sure where I'm going yet...

okay, I was sexual active at 12. I looked for love through sex. Love earned through sex...I know I'm learning bad belief...working on that...well, trying...

H says to me over the years..."If you don't give me what I want, there's other places to find it." How crushing is that, when H has said "I'm the best that he's ever had." Of course, these statement are at different times and I'm owning what's not mine to own. Enmeshed...my part!

I'm not sure how to put all of this together...it's like random thoughts. There's only one thing I will not do with him and guess what he did it with OW. Gross! Also, one of the reason I stopped watching porn with him...didn't want to see this act at all.

Okay, as a kid, I would sneak watching porn...okay...it was taboo, I was a kid...got with H, started watching b/c it was something I wasn't suppose to do...got bore...still watched...H started renting videos with this act in it...wanting me to...I tried...several times...hate it...stopped watching porn and put my foot down...

Of course, back slided...not standing up for myself...D-day happened...also, in a drunken state...in reference to this act in front of our freinds...he tells me "there are some things in life that we don't like to do, but we have to learn to like them." That's almost word for word....later that night WH confesses to A...

OKay...that's what I have so far...maybe some question...I don't know...but I'm going to figure this out...

Rin,

Okay. The MC that we are seeing has us reading "Getting the love you want."

In it the Author discusses Imago Therapy. Now I am not far along to give adivice on it. I have seen others here talk about it.

The belief so far as I understand it is that we are a biproduct of our upbringing and childhood. How we pick our spouses based not on the good traits in our childhood but the bad traits so we can set the record straight.

Now my FWW was abused as well and for that reason the MC has suggested MC to her. Not to mention the fact she has some other issues.

I would suggest that if you have these feelings based on the abuse you should really see somebody to help you through it. IC.

I see the changes you are trying to make. They are great but sometimes you need help. It's like hanging a cabinet. You may be able to do it yourself but if you have an some help it is easier and it takes less time. Trying to figure out on your own might get you there but with help it will be easier and probably quicker. The IC will know what path to lead you down.

I personally don't know if you need to go back that far on this one. Your H was with another women in a lustful way. Your perception that he is looking at porn and having lustful feelings for others could hurt.

Again what is it that really bothers you. Peel the onion and figure out why it is bothering you so much.

Is it lack of trust?
Is it him looking at another women?
Is it that you are frustrated in the SF dept because of the work schedule and you might resent him (a little) going to the self service isle?
Is it you still feel insecure because of the A?
Is it you think he is comparing you?
Do you feel threatned by this?

Nothing wrong with any of those things and I am sure there are more things to add.

My point is you cannot correctly relay your feelings to your H if you don't know.

I feel hurt, bothered, upset, etc when you look at those things because I feel ..... Now that is a topic you can resolve through a discussion.

Your husbands coments although not nice have been spoken in many of households.

I can tell you in the SF dept I am frustrated because my needs aren't being met and I have wanted to utter those words.


Put your foot down did you? No comment on that one.

Did he watch porn before he met you? Did you know he did? You watched it with him? You decided you didn't like it so he had to change? HMMM

No discussion. Just told him no more. How would you like that? Rin when we met it was fine with you. You watched it with me. I have decided I don't like it anymore and now you can't do it either.

How does that work with a PA man? I can't believe if you put your foot down he didn't start doing it more.

Just wanted to point that out.

Is it lack of trust? Yes, but it's getting better!

Is it him looking at another women? Yes

Is it that you are frustrated in the SF dept because of the work schedule and you might resent him (a little) going to the self service isle? No, I'm "waking" him up at lunch and we may not be talking but that's one thing we're doing. Today, was not good for me...kept thinking about OW.

Besides, I asked last night if he was self-servicing with porn and he said no, that he doesn't need porn to do that. I have no problem with self-servie b/c sometime you don't want the trouble of someone else being around...LOL...everyone needs me time...

Is it you still feel insecure because of the A? YES! YES!

Is it you think he is comparing you? YES!

Do you feel threatned by this? YES, I think has to do with comparing.


See that why I'm discussing it and it never occurred to me until you voiced it. Yeap! that's it! I think I really started not liking it when he started asking for...okay....anal...okay...

I don't like I... I've had more bad experiences than good...NO! Talking about this is hard!

We've "discussed" it, believe it or not, I don't think he did it more. There was a time when he was always, I MEAN every time he walked throught the door, he was looking...Pre A. You know I can't really remember it's been so many years...he started I think on the net when I built his CPU for Christmas one year...

It was taking away from us...that's when I really started not liking it...it just got worse when seemed to me like all he wanted was anal...I got really resentful then.

As far as the childhood thing, I think I'm cool with that...I've come really far...my belief is that I'm a better person for having gone through it...just didn't want to exclude something that may help figure this out. I mean I hold no resentment towards my SF or mom. Remember we all just started talking this past Father's day, and things are still going well with that.

OK then.

Peeling the onion. His viewing porn opened up an avenue that you did not want to go down. The more he looked at a certain aspect the more he wanted it. Then you got resentful.

Understandable. So maybe that is the conversation you should be having. You know FWH my main aversion is that you believe that what you are seeing should become part of our life. There are things I am uncomfortable doing and that is one of them. When you view that and then expect it from me I feel...... If viewing it makes you want it and you know I don't want it then it is going to cause problems.

I don't know just a thought. See that is why porn causes problems sometimes. These women are paid to do it and act like they like everything that is happening. That can cause unrealistic expectations for the spouse. It can go both ways by the way.

As far as the childhood thing. I doubt you are really cool with it. Whether you know it or not it does effect you today. I don't know how and you don't know how but that is something and IC can help you with. It may even be causing problems in your M.

My FWW had the same feeling as you and guess what every MC we went to has told her to go to IC for it. What about the ONS? Maybe it happened because of that. Just thinking out loud here.

I am glad your relationship with the Mom and SF is progressing though.

FWH will not even discuss the one thing I don't want to do! Mentioned it last night, he is not going there! I'll try again.

ONS, I can easily explain that one...first H and I were not go, his porn usage, my anger, resentment...bad reacting...so boomerang...Ihat YS maybe four to six months before...I felt so bad about myself...so bad...ONS would come over from time to time...give me attention, play with the kids...H didn't do that...he was at the computer...MOF...ONS would come and H would sit in his computer chair, and we would sit in that room and visit...

H felt pressured into having YS and I felt like he treated me different...H wouldn't get up in the middle of the night to help me out...money was really tight...alot of pressure on the two of us...

But H would fine the time and I had to make room for him to go hunting...sometimes every weekend...one weekend when he was gone...ONS came over...I started it and I finished it...

It wasn't worth it all the time...didn't make me feel any better than what I did...one night...I told H...

We dealt with it...he didn't talk to me for three days...by that point I didn't talk to ONS...wouldn't...didn't tell ONS why...

I begged H, did anything and everything I could to make matters better...I don't feel like we handle it to the best of our ability...H didn't talk about it, except to occassional "throw it up in my face" Something like well, you already slept with him so why not...

It was a really bad time for the two of us...matter of fact that's where I learn most of the stuff I know now...I didn't see my part back then...not until D-day came for me and the weeks that followed...

All I knew after was it was my self-esteem...I was trying to make myself feel better about me...fourty pounds over weight...H's attention to porn and hunting...new baby...

Well, That gives me a new meaning to "it's about him, and not me" (H's A)...

I have a huge fear of rejection...I have felt rejected by H so many times...more than I can count...and I has vivid images of some of those times.

Him looking at porn whether on the computer, tv, whatever makes me feel like he's rejecting me...

So, I felt rejected yesterday when I saw it. His A makes me feel rejected, insecure.

I am conflicted about these two things. I don't know why but there is something within these two quotes that seem to maybe have a corolation.



Yep it is about him.

When going through my FWW's justifications I was trying to understand why. As I have said many times her justifications were just revisions to the past. They were not true. Even today she will now admit that. IE me not asking how her day was.

One day she finally just said "you know HL sometimes people have A's in really good M's it just happens sometimes." Aha moment for me. It wasn't about me or our M it was about her. Now the question is how does a A happen in a really good M? Must be something going on in the FWW that makes this possible.

IE abandonment issues. Maybe her perception that I went from being her rescuer to her captor. I don't know I am trying to figure it out.

It was about her and not me.

Hey, Rin.

I was just thinking -- and I have NO experience in this department to be speaking from, so please keep in mind that I may be crazily off-base .... (hopefully not offensively so...)

What would you think about letting him take pics/videos of you for him to look at when he's got that urge? You've mentioned before that sometimes you feel like a doll on the shelf, so maybe this would feel too objectifying .... I don't know .... But if it's a comparison thing, about him looking at someone besides you .... maybe you could give him something interesting to look at that is you ... ?

-AmI.

Hi Rin -

Yes, I'm still around and kicking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For some reason, the forum isn't e-mailing me the posts to the threads I watch...and I've been busy, busy, busy, busy without a lot of time or energy to check the forums.

So I'm a little out of the loop on your current situation, but I've read enough to catch up at least on the porn issue.

I'll kick in my 2 cents, for what it's worth (probably about 2 cents <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

First, HL has given you some spot-on advice - you finding out why it's a problem for you. And I'm glad to see you're following it.

Porn, IMO, is dangerous. As a man, there's also a certain level of attraction to it (i.e., forbidden fruit, the "perfect" woman, women who will do "anything", etc.).

It's dangerous because it objectifies women, and it desensitizes men. It's like a drug - you need more and more to get that "high" you're looking for.

Leaving aside the moral issues regarding porn, the single most important fact within the context of a marriage is that if one person's use of porn bothers the other person, then out of respect and love that person should stop.

I for one do not believe that a person can view (or use) porn without doing some damage to themselves and any relationship they have. The more you do it, the more the images and thoughts are emblazened in your brain, and the more you'll have to work to replace those images.

If you go to porn to get something that your partner won't give you, or won't give you as often as you'd like, then you are disrespecting that partner. Intimacy is supposed to be enjoyed by two people, not one. It's called compromise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There are things I'd like MP to do for me that she either won't do or won't do as often as I would like. Conversely, there are things she would like me to do for her that I won't do or won't do as often as she likes. Does that mean I have a right to turn to porn, or another person, or whatever to get what she won't give me? Does that give her the same right?

In my opinon, no. Especially if the act or thing in question is something that has been done before, either in the context of one partner's experience or in the context of the relationship. If it wasn't enjoyable for both, then it's unreasonable to make that demand.

Your H wants a certain act from you. You have told him no, and you've told him why. It sounds like he's accepted that, even if he's not happy about it.

Fantasy can be a very powerful ingredient in intimacy. It can also be very dangerous. And telling yourself that it's only a fantasy can be a slippery slope.

Is it possible that your H can use porn and not be adversely affected by it? Anything's possible. But my initial point remains. If it is a problem for you, then he needs to stop doing it.

It's no different than if one spouse has an alcohol problem, or a spending problem, or a partying problem, or whatever.

That's my 2 cents in an extremely incoherent fashion (been a long few weeks). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AmI - that's not an off-base suggestion at all, at least generally speaking.

As a guy, who is married to a very hot-looking wife (IMO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), I can certainly say that is an excellent idea (one that I've benefited from in a couple of ways).

Rin - if that's something you're willing to do, you might want to run it by your H. He can either do the filming/picture taking, or you might be able to do some yourself (i.e., webcam).

Of course, this is something you should only do if you're comfortable doing for it. If you are, I'd be surprised if your husband didn't jump on the chance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Been there done that...video, pics on digital, pic on his cell phone...

sexy hot clothes...no clothes...tripod for video (I was pg, and I think it sucked.)

I'm willing to do more! No afraid...and I did end up participating in the wet-t-shirt contest because I wanted to when we went to the bike rally. Didn't win...wasn't the point...and felt good about it...had nothing to do with H's anything...my choice! And I had a Great time! He took pics!

Thank you all and I'm open for more thoughts...

I even told H I would rather him watch a wet tshirt contest then look at porn!

HB, MAN I missed you! Good to see you!

((((HB)))) See, now you giving back when you're so great at it...well...harumph to your busy life! LOL Great to see you...don't be stingy, 'k?

Rin,

This goes to what HB posted...what if by fixing on a certain act, the lack of, feels like SF isn't about connecting on all levels if the focus is only on part?

And I'm in the same boat as the bait and switch...I viewed porn with DH before we were married and in the Phase I part of our relationship...and dear sister, had the same thing...got bored, insecure, comparative...and began to believe he needed it to be with me....YUCK. Along that same time was when OS found it...shared with the neighbors. DH said he got rid of all of it...and it came back...slowly, hidden...until MS found it...and shared with his friends...I think we had ten "purges"...hence, my advice for your boys.

And a last idea...

What if your automatic perception of him comparing you is a signal that you compare yourself in a lot of ways to others and want to stop?

Just kickin' stuff around.

And for the SA you experienced...was that the PTSD source?

LA

PTSD source? Not sure I wasn't diagonis until five or six years ago. I was also raped twice...once at 14 (4 months before I was 15) and again at 24 (a month before I was 25).

I can honestly say that I don't think I have any hang ups about it. No bad dreams anymore! I'm proud of that. I have journaled everything untilabout a year after OS was born. Then I went to counseling for a while.

I am a very sexual person.

H and I got to the point where it was a chore...for me it was hurry up and get it over with...I'm bored...I'm this, I'm that...I would make it a point to do every other day.
This could have been when he started his A...I don't know!

I know that I enjoy it now. Most of the time, when I'm not getting I'm sorry babe, like today.

"What if your automatic perception of him comparing you is a signal that you compare yourself in a lot of ways to others and want to stop?"

That's a good possible! Projection, I do and have compared OP to me all the time.

I don't think I have ever thought that H had to have porn to be with me. I'm sorry you thought that way, I hope that's better. I really don't think he has an addiction...it's been a long time since he done it everyday...like today...nothing!

I'm rather exhausted from thinking about it so much. It dragging me down.

I am not present...I am very low...

I made the mistake of reading a few lines of PA man also...that didn't help!

I have spend what 2, 2, 5, 5, 1, 1, 1=17 hours with H in almost two weeks...lefts just make it 20 to add up the times we have talked on the phone and I've dropped him lunch off.

I firmly believe he is PA and I don't have any hopes of him changing...us feelng connected like I want so badly...i see our kids growning up and repeating our pattern...

Furthermore, I see H claiming I treat him like a child for the rest of our lives together and him continuely saying that I can pack my stuff and go.

I have been trying to get him to go to MC with me for years and I don't see that changing. I understand that it's a process and we're talking baby steps for the both of us, but I just don't see it.

This book is very painful to read...how do you stay present while reading your past in black and white?

Here we are 4 months from D-day...one month and five days from NC...I'm weary from the journey and today has seemed like I've traveled miles...

I'm lonely...yes, the H's paycheck is helping and will help get us out of this bind his suspension put us in but I'm getting weak.

Tonight, I brought the kids to have their picture taken. The last time I did that YS was two months old, I think we were overdue. Then, we ordered some pizzza, rented some kids movies, and ate candy and chips. They just finished their bath and are in bed now.

Tomorrow, I want to bring the two to the movies since we haven't seen "Cars" yet. It's playing at the dollar show. Something we can do to get out of the house while H sleeps.

I didn't even watch the second movie with the kids b/c of the way I feel. i went to the garage and cleaned my bike. I think I want to sell it. I've rode it three times since H got the HD, and I just don't see me having time with H to practice driving it.

I could in turn use the profit fm the bike to payoff a loan to have more income a month.

I'm very tired and I was hoping that H would call, of course, I could call him, but that's standard operation.

I will be getting the boy's pics back Oct. 15th. i would like to post a pic of them in the MB album...my kids...red [censored] and yellow [censored]! LMAO

Well, I'm going to go to bed...I wish everyone a farewell! Take care!