Good MOrning, Daze!

I hope that you are doing well today! I am good, really good, I've been reading on emotional and verbal abuse this morning. I haven't found anything to indicate that's a problem in our M. the only thing that Wh use to do was tell me I was wrong for feeling the way I did, and since D-day that's been corrected with BOTH of us.

He does cuss when he talks to me but then he does that to everyone. He doesn't call be names, or belittles me behind or in front of people. MOF, I didn't find out how much WH thought of me until exposure. I was very surprises how he told people I was the best thing to have happened to him, blah blah blah!

Shoot...I just got off the phone with my SF...since Father's day we talk every week to two weeks...go figure after years of not talking...he's, um, very proud of me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't have imagined that coming from someone who didn't approve of me M in the first place...He told me that he's just now learning what I'm learning an he's 65. We talked about control, expectations, strenghts, weakness, moving forward, looking at the positives and negatives, just in general! (This is the same man who abused me!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

At one point he said that he didn't mean to bore me, so I told him how much I was enjoying the conversation and that I didn't get to talk about this stuff, so he was fullfilling a need. I think I heard his heart swell! LOL
Anyway, I wanted to say having an abusive childhood has created VERY strong boundaries. I don't have to THINK about those, I will not stand to be hit and like most parents I will go CRAZY if something would happen to my kids, so putting them/me in danger is not an option.
I hope that I haven't sounded ungrateful! I, like yourself, appreciate all given. However, I did feel pushed by some and feel that some may have jumped into the sitch without knowing a complete story. I am already frustrated, angry, overwhelmed at times, confused...so if I offended anyone...please accept my apologies!

Daze- I know that not what you where saying my I had to say that. I don't feel naive like I think I once was.

HL-Kinda like you just said big pic, little pics...
LOL...This is where I am...LMao...That diving board USE TO BE really HIGH...right now...there's no diving board...I'm standing on the edge of the pool.

Instead of WH, fence-sitting, I AM. I'm serious...I'm at the point that you are/were...do I think it's worth it...can I go on...what's best for me and the kids? Tons and tons of questions...until my questions are answered I'm not moving...no backsliding...no moving forward with M...

I'm licking my wounds, and gathering my strenght for whatever the next step is...

Thanks, mimi! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I appreciate your simple words just like LA's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rin,

It is not a matter of not moving forward in the M.

It is a matter of protection. One of two things needs to happen your M needs to create a safe environment for your M to recover. (protection) Or you need to ensure your own safety. I am not talking about the physical aspect, I am speaking of the emotional aspect.

You know when I looked at the big picture I saw my beutiful loving W. When I got closer and started examining all of the little pictures it was different. I think in some of the litte pictures I saw my FWW flipping me off, sticking her toungue out at me and mooning me.

I was projecting what I wanted my FWW to be onto her and seeing that. Now I am seeing all of those little pictures and I would like for them to change. Only one person can do that and that is her.

So now I dip my foot in the water and I refuse to hit bottom again. It is now her that needs to warm up the water and jump in and then invite me in as well. Prove to me it is safe and warm and I will absolutely be your willing swim partner.

HL- You nailed it on the head!


The more and more I see of H I want to jump in, then I see WH and I'm saying to myself "You want tme to do what? Jump, are you crazy? NO, i'm not crazy!"

So, here I am, just being! And I'm cool with that! No committees in my head...arguing the pros and cons...LOL

I napped at lunch and surprisingly when I laid down there were no voices...matter of fact, I didn't realize that I had gone to sleep...IS that weird?

WH just called to let me know he made it back. I have no intentions of seeing this afternoon but he said see you after while. I said ok and hung up.

This afternoon is F's religion class, so by the time I pick him up and drop him off, WH is gone or leaving.

LA-

What about O&H statements? I got one I want to say: maybe some rev. babble- I'm just looking at all the damage that we've done to each other and trying to decide whether or not I want to continue in this M.

Doesn't the WS usually say that? LMAO

My apologies to ALL those who may be disappointed in ME, but this is something "I" have to do for me. I'm sure that you all understand, and thank you!

Who is Disappointed in you?

Not me. LOL.

BTW on the pictures I didn't like I started drawing mustaches and beards and blacking out a couple teeth. LOL.

There is nothing wrong with telling FWH or WH or whatever that at this point you do not really want to spend time with him.

You have hurt me and I need a few days to think about what I want to do. He will probably ask if you are thinking about a D or whatever and you can just say. Your latest actions have given me a lot to think about and sort through.

Please just give me time to think about it. Don't even think about dipping your toe in. Just sit back and be calm and wait.

DID you guys chceck out MY little man in the photo album?

Here is the message from his grandma today:


AIN't I just the proud mama? LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Rin!

Just checking in, wish I had that magic wand available for you.

I think you're doing a great job on the self-awareness and improvements and things that you've been working so hard on. I'm always so impressed by that -- you seem to be miles ahead every day.

I still think that the piece that's missing is with your WH. He won't agree to protect the marriage, and throws tantrums or rages against you or pulls stunts and plays games to rebel against you. There seems to be a disconnect where he's not seeing that he needs to do this for the marriage -- he thinks it's just because you want to control him.

I don't know how you get past that disconnect -- I don't think that it can be YOU who does it. Because coming from you, it's just more control for him to rebel against. Can you get him into MC? Be really careful and find a good one who will actually be proactive and helpful.

I'm honestly still a fan of Plan B for you, but am totally supportive of you doing what you think you have to do. I just hate to see you lose any more feeling for him when he gets destructive and acts like a child over and over again. If you're at the point where you arent' sure if you want to continue the M ..... you've got to do something different before you totally give up!


I hope this doesn't sound like a lecture, it's not intended that way. I don't pretend to have all the right answers -- especially since I'm swimming against the same current, myself. I'm totally in your corner. And never, ever disappointed in you!!!

-AmI.

((((AmI)))

The disconnect...that's why I need LA, HL, and Mulan...

The main problem I see is PA behavior...the only way to deal with that is by changing my behavior...I can't do anything about him...

I wish I could have finished reading the book. I'll just have to order another and get it sent here to work. I'll be useing HIS money for it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


All I can do is REINFORCE my boundaries...it each instance...he's not as horrible as it sounds on paper...

Do I portray him as a horrible man? Or does he need any help?

BIG picture...Little picture!

"All I can do is REINFORCE my boundaries...it each instance...he's not as horrible as it sounds on paper...

Do I portray him as a horrible man? Or does he need any help?"


I think all W's do horrible things .... and you have to have boundaries and enforcements for those things.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that he's not supposed to BE a W anymore .... right?

You were considering yourself in recovery.

He says he wants the M, and you .....

But he's not catching on that HE has to PROTECT the M and you. Instead, he's fighting against you. Oppositionally defiant .... just going to fight because you said it and you want it, so he'll just show you that you can't control him.

Somehow, he's got the coin turned around and instead of you guys working together toward a common goal, he's out to prove that you can't tell him what to do.

At least that's the picture I see of him. And that's the piece I don't know how you get past, either. I think anything you tell him, he's going to fight against. And every time he does, it just grates a little bit more of you away .... and pretty soon there won't be any of your love left for him. That's the piece I don't want to see happen.

I think you're beyond just boundary enforcement here .... we need some experts to weigh in on how to flip that coin over for him. (Or tell me I'm crazy and naive or whatever -- I'll certainly admit that there are MUCH more experienced minds than mine around here!!!) I honestly have no idea how you would do this.....

-AmI.

I thought I was but doesn't a couple go over the rules together...talk about them...discuss them...

Like mimi said I didn't lay the ground work...I didn't do my part...it's my lack of communication that has got me into this one...There was NO "R" talk...I talked about the rules..."I" didn't follow through...I'm OWNING my part...and only my part...

You're right...he thinks that I am trying to control him...I AM NOT...


I'm working on that! When I do talk to him...I'm not sure what I want to do and maybe we can come up with plan. I leave it at that.

As far as I'm concerned I am detached, yesterday, that was it...after the anger subsided, I just decided that he can not hurt be anymore...I won't let him!

I've got ME now! He can't take away! His little show that he put on yesterday, didn't do anything for me. It comes down to it...I'll leave!

I have even thought about calling the Women's shelter when I do leave, just to be on the safe side should he snap.

I'm CYAing, BABY! (Covering my @ss)

Rin,

When aren't O&H statements great self-care? "I" statements anytime...no "you's" required.

Wonderful email on YS...I'm happy for you.

Loving detachment...seeing what your WH does and says as about him...and it is...he burned the books because he chose to do so, not for anything you said or did. He chose to break NC and make a new female friend...hey, all his, about him, not you.

Don't try to find power where it isn't...review if you've been O&H about your stuff...do not bash yourself for taking joy where it was...it was there for you...look at any choices you made which betrayed you...and trusting WH to NC wasn't betraying you...it was him betraying himself and the marriage. Separate it out...what you're willing to do for the marriage, even though you're not willing to do it FOR WH.

Make sense?

Do I think you're portraying him as a horrible person? No. He is making horrible choices. Know that difference. They only demonstrate his choices...and they are harmful...I believe we see more harm in them than you do. See, it's his actions which are shocking, not you portraying them as shocking. See the difference. Know it.

I would go with statements of THE truth:

"I know you chose to threaten to burn down the house."

"I know you chose to burn my books."

"I know you chose to not change your cell number, not protect our marriage from your adultery partner's calls."

"I know you chose to answer her call and to talk to her."

"I know you know all of this."

"I know there's not a thing wrong with you, WH. Not one thing. These are choices you make."

"I know I cannot control you, nor can you control me."

"I know what you choose to say and do is about you, not me."

I've separated them out here so that you can see they aren't all at one time...they acknowledge truth of actions, of being human. Helps to state what really is to keep yourself from DJs in your own mind. Helps with detaching.

Calm, respectful, utmost truthful tone. When I did this, I spoke slowly, with care...showed a conscious effort for clarity, which contrasted greatly my rushed, all out at once kind of speech.

Like stating a fact "It's 70 degrees outside with a slight breeze and many gray clouds." No twists offs at the end, no body language (no pointing, smirking, etc.). Telling the time after checking my watch.

Where are you getting disappointment in you? Are you reaching for something you expect out of these posts? I don't see it. Everyone here, I believe, is pulling for you...not gonna be disappointed in your choices...we respect it is your life; we feel with you, we remember, we reach for our best for you...still just ours, Rin. You're all you.

Hope this helps.

LA

Rin,
I just read your posts and what a roller coaster you have been on.

I am here to listen if you need me. You still have my e mails.

I almost feel guilty that I am in such a different place right now.

Stay true to you.

It is hard to fly like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys!!!

stay strong!
Blind

IMO, Rin, your H in no different than any garden variety WS.

My now sweet, dear and wonderful H was like yours..out of control..crazy..mean..horrible when he was a WAYWARD.

This is what is beginning to trouble me. I know I sound like a broken record...but I believe that we need to get back to MB BASICS and stop bringing in other theories here.

I don't have any trouble at all with psychological theories. I'm obsessed myself with self-help books...but armchair diagnoses regarding personality styles by amateurs such as MYSELF..I personally have trouble with...it's starting not to feel like the MB FORUM anymore...YUK...where are the oldtimers???? (slight TJ again)

IMO, WSes will use every rationalization and justification that could be thought of to continue their waywardness..That 'you are CONTROLLING me" was part of my H's script, too.

Of course, I was trying to CONTROL him. What do you do when someone you love is TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL? He's not using SELF-CONTROL. He wants you to condone his LACK OF SELF-CONTROL?

I agree wtih LA, though, about calmly speaking the truth.

This is part of PLAN A.

There is need for concern, IMO, as Ami says that staying in PLAN A too long may cause you to lose your love for him while he is CRAZY and OUT OF CONTROL.

You also have to be careful about ENABLING his A. That's what he wants you to do. He wants to CAKE-EAT and gain your APPROVAL for his PLAYER WAYS.... In his crazy mind, he LOVES you but wants to PLAY with them...YUK...

I also question your concern about DISAPPOINTING us. I respect your decision to live your life as you choose..to make changes at your OWN PACE. Everybody's different....YOU ARE YOU and that is ALWAYS GOOD...

I am so grateful to have all of you in my corner...cheering me on...

I've had a trying day...I sure haven't been living in today...I am truely disappointed in myself...You may ask what for?

After reading a few things tonight, I realized I was sabotaging myself...I thought "I" was doing a good thing but I see that "I" have expectations from telling WH that I was thinking about separating. I have been obessing with the idea since yesterday...

I was hoping for something...a pure case of I want what I want when I want it...I am ashamed of the underlying intentions...

I attended my 2nd meeting tonight (LA, is it okay to talk about the subject matter?), it was on graditude. I got the yellow book tonight, since a friend is getting me the blue book! I read on the first step. If I understood right it was on letting go what we can not control.

No matter how I try I can't make WH do anything that he doesn't want to do. I can chose to stick it out or end it.

Today, I took his attack on my books personal ahen it's not about me. I was outraged after work just thinking that I had to talk to him, see him. By the time, i got to the meeting I was SOOOO hurt, I could have cried.

When it was my turn to talk I teared up, and by the time the meeting was over, I felt good.

LA-I thank you form the bottom of my heart for recommending them. Those darn "I" statement are so tough. Practice, practice, practice!

mimi- I agree about the basics...I don't believe that the foundation was laid properly.

I would say more but I have to go to bed...but I'm falling asleep sitting here trying to figure out what I want to say...Good night! I'm sorry...some sleep is definitily in order!

Bless you all!

Good morning! THis was the best morning our family has had in a long time! MY DH came home...made coffee...came to wake me up (I was awake, just laying there). I got up and say on the sofa...I showed him my Al-Anon book and he read the 12 steps. (SURPRISE!) We had a really nice decussion, I mean really nice.

He was talking about my B-day, saying how he wanted to do something extremely nice for me. In the past, any holiday involving me has been a small celebration or sometimes over looked. I would hear that he didn't have time to get me something or some other excuse. He's been talking about it since before "our" blow up.

"DH" also spend time with F this morning talking about this and that, my b-day, hunting, school, how to tell who's a real friend, who's not, and told him how good of a kid he is. "DH" also told him how proud he was of him, and asked that he help me out. They talked about trying to do things together.

It was just something that very rarely happened. "DH" told me how much he misses his boys.

I'm very guarded, needless to say, and last night's meeting really helped with my perceptive, which was getting pretty ugly. I was thinking the worst, looking for the worst, and just thinking SOOOO negative.

I also spoke with "DH" last night. I mentioned to him that I was reading "After the A" and that I was highlighting. I told him that I was reading about "Stage 2: Should I stay or should I go?" I said I would love for him to read the book, but I would be just as happy if he read the highlighted parts.

HE said that he could do that! (SHOCKED) I was shocked. Of course, he's said that he's going to do something and then doesn't do it...so only time will tell.

Perhaps, and I'll have to ask one day, but perhaps Monday and losing him temper was similiar to me losing mine that day and trying to physical hurt him. That was no lowest point in this whole thing. That's the day I decided to change! Like I said, I don't know that for sure, but "DH" is different! I mean "Different," caring, concerned; he took time out at work last night to "TALK" to me!

He hasn't done that in a while, he's usually "busy". Now, he could have been having a slow night, but I'm going to take it for what it is. I haven't told him one way or the other about what I'm going to do. We did talk about the future this morning but no "R" talk. "I'M" not ready! I need to get my ducks in a row first.

I "thought" I was centered, but last night I realized I'm not I'm very troubled and I need some time to sort things out for myself. Like looking for abuse, there's no abuse in my relationship, and I was trying to find some yesterday. I was!

My "H" the one that I spoke with last night, and the one that walked in this morning, is the one that I love and haven't "seen".

So, I'm still standing still, watching my back, trying to keep the glasses on the counter, and trying REALLY HARD to be objective. Trusting my gut! Seeing sincerity...not hoping for anything.

Well, thank you all for listening this morning, I feel more peaceful than I have in four or five days. Quiet! I appreicate all of you standing by my side.

Oh, mimi, this new book, LOL, says pretty much the same things, JUST different. It talks about how the BS feels, how the WS feels...what needs to be done to recover the M...maybe MB isn't for everyone...I love it but some people need a different approach.

We were talking about learning styles this morning. It just gave me something (else) to think about, but I'm peaceful this morning.

LA- Your the best at being you, I wouldn't want you any other way. You mean a world to me!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rin:

Don't forget about the need for the NC LETTER and the RULES OF PROTECTION.

I'm sorry. I feel that is more important than him reading ANY BOOK!!

This is MIMI..victim of repeated FALSE RECOVERIES...

He will PLAY YOU and try to APPEASE YOU by PRETENDING to be interested in that stuff..so that he can continue to CAKE-EAT!!

Do not forget that he talked to her 20 minutes only a few days ago...

By handing you those crumbs of a GOOD MORNING, he will think that he has you fooled and will resume contact.

I hate to tell you this, Rin..but I had to learn it the hard way.

I'm sitting here recalling how my H fooled me and will acknowledge it today if you asked him. He came to the point of wanting ME and HER and would have kept it that way FOREVER if possible..playing the both of us...

The longer I enabled his A, the more IN LOVE he fell with her..Didn't they talk about ENABLING in AL ANON...Think of your WH as being ADDDICTED and you ENABLING HIM..Steve Harley even recommended for me to go to AL ANON because of my propensity for ENABLING the A....

It's so simple. When my H was FINISHED with her, HE WAS FINISHED and willing to do ANYTHING that I asked him to do to save our marriage. Your H still isn't THERE. Do not give up that DAILY GOAL of getting him THERE. You must get to the point of INSISTING on the NC LETTER. He absolutely must be agreeable to not seeing or talking to her FOR LIFE. There is nothing the matter with your insistence of this..HE KNOWS THAT. That is non-negotiable and imperative regardless of whether he thinks that you are CONTROLLING him or not. He may think that all that he wants... but by stating your expectation of this..even demanding this in order to be in a relationship with him... you are stating your own boundary. You are stating how you demand to be treated by a LOVING HUSBAND.

Your H is making me have FLASHBACKS this morning..SORRY...

OK. I'm back to ME.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Excellent post Mimi.



This is so true. WS's can sense when you are getting strong enough to stand up for yourself and possibly walk away so they will give you just enough to pull you back under their spell.

I know that sounds really negative but I also had to learn it the hard way. I wanted so much for "this time" to be different, but it never was.

However, there is also a positive to those times. They can also be just the thing to move you out of a rut and a little closer to your goal. Eventhough those times were he77 to go through they always seemed to be a catalyst for growth and change. Slowly, I did start seeing more and more of my H and less and less of the WH. But H would never have fully emerged without plan B to catapult him out of that last bit of fog. For some reason it actually takes you walking away alot of times.

Hugs to Rin...

(((((RIN)))))

I hope things are looking up for you. I really do. I wish I had words of wisdom to give to you, but seeing as I don't even know what I'm doing myself, I don't have anything wise to say. I feel like an idiot wearing the clothing of a professional.



Good luck. Stay optimistic, but don't let it give you unrealistic expectations.

Rin,

I absolutely agree with MIMI on the crumbs.

Just like Charlie Brown we have all taken Lucies word she wouldn't pull that football out only to end up on our butts.

Undying trust and unconditional love are hard things to just dispose of even after being betrayed.

We look at that big picture and sometimes forget the little ones. Your DH is still the same on the big picture. But the little pictures that comprise that picture have changed.

You need to say I don't want crumbs.

One of the things I have always said. My perception of a person is not based on the mistakes they make but how hard the work to fix those mistakes.

So your DH disposed of your books. Is getting you coffee etc really enough to fix those mistakes.

If a friend borrowed your skill saw and then didn't return in for a while. Then you asked for it back and they hand it to you and it is broken. What would you expect from that person?

To me that is where my perception of that person can change drastically.

If they said I am sorry and I will buy you a new one my perception is they are a good person.
If they said I am sorry and handed it back to me my perception may change.
If they said here it is and never even told you they broke it then what.
If you pointed out it was broken and they justified it and said here is a hand saw this will be fine?

So now if that person wants to borrow a tool from me in the future I will think of the situation and decide if I will lend it to them. If they replaced it sure I would. Give me a hand saw and I would never lend them a tool again.

You are doing great in this whole thing. You really are.

Morning, Rin.

Sounds like you feel great today. I love those mornings!

I have to agree with the others here. And right now, while he is dropping crumbs, and trying to be sweet, is probably the time to make your move.

"I appreciate your extra efforts recently. I want us to be able to recover this M. Here's what I need from you in order to be able to recover....."

Don't let him keep sweeping it under the rug, don't settle for just one good morning. You're worth a lot more than that!!

Get the dialogue open and get everything out there. He needs the option of agreeing or not to doing what it will take to recover the M. And right now he seems to be in a pretty agreeable mood, so this might be the time to catch him.

Hang in there, you are doing great. I'm so impressed by you!

-AmI.

Hi, Thank you all for posting I breifly read over them and will response later.

I just wanted to let you review the email that I sent to "WDH" this morning.

LOL...I sound like a WS...LOL


okay...there it is.