Dear Schoolbus:

You wrote: “Glad he's talking. We have a lot in common! My H didn't want to talk at all, just ‘get over it - I didn't love her, she didn't love me, it was just for sex, something different’. Man, I just wanted to punch him in the stomach.”

Other than the “…get over it” part, that pretty much sounds like me. I think if I ever told my W to “get over it” though, getting punched in the stomach would be the least of my worries. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Regardless, your H’s response sounds very similar to mine. I didn’t love her. She didn’t love me. It was something “different”. Although, I can’t honestly say it was just for sex. It made me feel good that an attractive woman other than my soon-to-be wife could find me attractive enough to have sex with me. What a high. Unfortunately, as most of us soon discover, the drug that gave me this high came with some serious, life-altering side-effects. But I can say that it was a whole lot closer to being "just for sex" than it was for love. It never was love. That may be one of the things that differentiates men from women. Women's need for intimacy, from what I know of it anyway (the author of 'Mars/Venus' I'm not), seems to manifest itself in sex if the perception or hope of love is there. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

At least it only took you “months” to get the story out of your H. My poor W had to put up with me and my guilt-ridden moods, sideways glances and avoidances for 16 years. I guess I’m still guilt-ridden, but at least now there’s real hope for us.

Like you, I thought of suicide too. Although likely for different reasons. Mine was guilt-driven. I had a hard time living with myself, knowing what I had done to my W and our relationship. I guess I wouldn’t be surprised if your H felt the same way at some point. Although I suspect you’ll have a hard time ever getting him to admit it. We guys are a tough nut to crack. However, I don’t want to discourage you to keep trying to get him to let go of his feelings and even write them here in this forum. It took a long time for my W to get me to do this. A sledgehammer upside the head once or twice, I think, is what finally helped. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, if your H knows how much it means to you, and if he hasn’t done so already, encourage him to at least review some of the posts and assure him that this site is COMPLETELY anonymous. Knowing that helped me a great deal. I’m a pretty private person, and spilling my beans to the world was not easy. Spilling them for my wife and I, though, has been worth every gut-wrenching admonition.

Hi Schoolbus- thanks for your continued interest in our recovery!

I was thinking about forgiveness today. I'm not there yet... I'm still processing. I was reading some of Mr. G's old posts and came across this:

"Forgiveness is the final evolution of recovery.

Some folks might think that they need to forgive their spouse before they can recover, but I suggest that it doesn’t happen that way at all. Nope, forgiveness is a result of recovery and not the other way around. Forgiveness is a consequence of all the other recovery tasks that husband and wife do. I might even suggest that once you have forgiven your spouse you have recovered. Forgiveness is the pinnacle of recovery, the Holy Grail that signifies that that you may have arrived at the finish line."

He wrote this in his one year update. The whole thread is really good- I'll paste it here for future reference:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Anyway, I think the forgiveness will come with time. I think Messdup and I have a good start in our process. I just wish my emotions were more stable- it would go faster.

My other thought about forgiveness is that I also will need to forgive myself for deciding to stay in the marriage. Somehow I need to see that I am strong, not weak, by staying.

09,
Perhaps I can lend you my view of your marriage.



Perhaps that is true. You see, I have a slightly different spin on this, allow me to explain. It is clear from each of your posts that your husband’s tryst some 16 years ago was cruel and selfish act. He could have told you and given you the choice to stay or go but he lacked the maturity. After all, he thought, “She will never know”. No doubt a cowardly act, no doubt a selfish indulgence that has come to haunt him and you 16 years latter. However, in a church some 16 years ago the two of you changed the events and course of your life with a simple, “I do.”

So my spin is that at that point your husband and you became a married couple in a valid marriage. I might suggest to you that as your husband cannot change the history of his thoughtless and hurtful act; you cannot simply declare the marriage not valid. Now, 16 years latter, your marriage is more valid then ever, including everything that has come with it, a household and a family.



The guilt and confusion of keeping his dark secret buried for so long fosters the loss of intimacy and connection that is so valuable to build and sustain love. While such acts do not build a loving relationship they are not the cause of the poor choices that each of you might have made during 16 years of marriage. I fear that responsibility for such poor choices lie exclusively with the persons who made them. Look solely within and not at each other. Your married life is no sham; it is merely a married life with marital issues like all the other poor souls who have joined this club. The big question is, “What are you going to do about it”.



I have read where he strongly disagrees with your position. I might suggest to you that the real truth is that the lies and the betrayal have surfaced something that you both forgot. It is the discovery of a deep and profound connection with each other. It must have been a complete shock for you to discover how very badly you really wanted your husband. I assure you that he was no less shocked by his deep feelings towards you. This is often the case; the love is buried and lost in the daily chores of maintaining a household and raising a family. But a love that is buried is not necessarily a love lost. The emotional turmoil that accompanies the affair discovery uncovers those lost feelings that have been there all along hence the desperate struggle that all can see in your posts as you both try again to find each other.

Mr. G

Mr. G - too profound a post. You earn your name.

09,

On forgiveness:

Forgiveness unfolds. It isn't at the end of recovery, nor at the beginning.

In your case, it will be different from my case, but somewhat the same.

Messdup needs to forgive you, and you need to forgive him, because you were both WS. Yet, you are both also BS. I can only help on the BS part, and tell you that end. Maybe that can help.

You want to forgive, and you find yourself wanting not to at the same time. To recover the marriage, at some point you have to lay down the anger. You have to lay down the arguments. You have to leave behind those things that you know are transgressions against you, and you have to forgive them. You have to find your spouse worthy of forgiveness. And you have to find yourself worthy of forgiveness as well.

You might not be ready for that yet. Probably not, because forgiveness doesn't just happen. It unfolds, over time.

When you are ready to talk about forgiving, I can talk about that. I'm very good on that one topic. My lifetime specialty.

Messdup,
My H would never post. I do give him things to read, but he is very private. Most of our friends refer to him as the Hermit sometimes. He's very creative, and writes me letters, and also writes music in order to express what's going on in his mind. Once he started talking, things changed so much.

You are exactly correct about the "different" sex thing. That's what he says, too. He was so stroked in the ego dept. when this OW found him attractive. He was also interested in her lifestyle, which involved a sexual "freedom" thing (she has a number of OM she sees), and he found this interesting. Porn, etc., that they shared an interest in, and the stage was set. She went after him, and he was open to the idea too, so things weren't so hard to get started. You've carried the guilt for a long time. I have a story to share with you and 09 on 3 monks when you two are ready to put that behind you.

Let me know when you want to hear the story. Probably would need a new thread. It would go with the forgiveness, or moving on, kind of idea. When that time comes.

Hold on to each other tonight. Remember that you love each other - like Mr. G said.

SB

I’ve been a bit depressed the past couple days. Messdup calls it my “processing”. I pull back and think about all the angles of the situation, turning it over and over in my head.

My recent problem was that I wasn’t sure what I was supposed to learn from my husband’s infidelity. The lesson from my own affair was quite obvious to both of us, even as it was happening: I didn’t feel I was loved by Messdup, so I sought someone else’s attention. Messdup recognized this and has taken steps to change. He pays attention to me, talks to me, he has even written here to demonstrate that he’s serious about making our marriage better. As a result, I feel his love. I don’t miss my OM at all right now (first time in a year and a half). That lesson is simple to me.

The flip side has been more challenging, from my point of view. I have asked Messdup repeatedly- how could I have prevented his actions? Which of his needs did I not meet? How can I change so it won’t happen again?

His answer: I did not do anything wrong, I WAS meeting his needs, I should not change anything, and it won’t happen again because HE changed.

His answer started me spiraling into a deep dark mood. I felt I had no control over the situation. I was confused, because I firmly believe that there are lessons in hard times.

It took me a couple days, but I think I found the lesson for me: I can love him even if he's not perfect . I can accept him as fully human with all his mistakes, past and future. My lesson here is to learn mature love.

I’ll work towards that.

Thanks for listening everyone.

09,

The lesson is one you have always known. For you have loved him all along, and he has not been perfect all along.

When you thought you no longer loved him, your love was merely waning.

Love does that. Like the moon, sometimes it waxes and sometimes it wanes. But the love was always there.

With the moon, it is only when the light of the sun is shining upon it that we can see it.

So it is with love. So our task in marriage is to be sure that we keep the sun shining right on the face of the moon, all of the time.

You say, that can't even happen in nature!

But you see, a marriage has TWO suns.



SB

Oh yeah, forgot the other thing.

You talked about what you need to do to meet his needs NOW, to fix what happened THEN.

When I initially read your post, I thought,

"How can she think she can retroactively fix something NOW to go back to THEN?"

Mainly because the A on his part was so long ago.

And then I came to my senses.

This happens to all BS's. We all want to go back and fix things, to change ourselves, to meet the needs that we didn't meet back then - regardless of how long ago "back then" was. So it makes perfect sense that you ask yourself and Messdup this question.

You want to meet his ENs, and you want to know what ENs you weren't meeting then. You want to change so that you can meet them NOW, so that this cannot ever recur.

Exactly the correct response. He says you are meeting them, so you have to take his word for it. If you have taken the EN questionnaire and you meet the ENs he has identified, then you are where you need to be right now.

If he wanted changes, I hope (and I believe he would) that he would tell you the changes he wanted.

I had the feelings of wanting to go back in time. To un-do the things that had happened. Things I had done, things I hadn't done. To do things I wish I had done. To do things differently. All of us have those same feelings. We have to adjust and accept that we can only go forward. There's no reverse on our clocks.

This is the one thing I don't like about getting old. I like most things - especially that I can say just about whatever I want and people just attribute it to my being "eccentric". But the one thing that I don't like is that at least once a week I add something more to the pile of "things I wish I had done differently". But every time I add to that pile now it's something new - at least the lessons are no longer repeated!

SB

This is 090886. My screen name was the day I first met my husband (Messdup), 20 years ago. I decided to change my name here to reflect my choice to "start over" in our marriage.

We are ok- squabbles here and there but Messdup has been so patient.

"One advantage of marriage is that, when you fall out of love with him or he falls out of love with you, it keeps you together until you fall in again." ~Judith Viorst

I have hope for us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is Messdup’s wife. I’m having trouble with finding the motivation to go through the hard “recovery” work that is necessary to rebuild our marriage. I am visiting this site every day, and in reading other people’s stories I sometimes feel inspired to try (like my previous post on this thread), but the feelings of hope only last a short time. I know that this sounds discouraging- that is not my intent; I am writing in hope that someone will have some insight to help me change my attitude.

Since Messdup posted here last month, he has been very busy at work and was often gone for several days, leaving me and the boys at home. I enjoyed the peace when he was gone; there was no conflict or reminders that our relationship has faltered. I realized while he was gone that going through the motions of “loving” (which to Messdup means several hugs and kisses a day, telling him I love you at least twice a day, SF at least once a week, conversation every night after the kids are in bed) have been emotionally exhausting for me. I have been doing these things, often in automatic pilot mode, for several months, and now I have begun to withdraw from my husband.

I recognize that I am standing in the way of a great opportunity to build intimacy with the man I married. He is doing and saying the right things, but I feel empty. Since he came home last weekend I’ve avoided spending time with him and I can’t quite understand why.

I keep coming back to the feeling that our marriage was a mistake. Messdup had a brief physical affair with a woman that, in my opinion, was a much better match for him. He emphatically denies this and tells me that I am his soulmate. But our marriage has been shaky since before it began (16 years). How can we be soulmates with this history?

Part of me wants to start fresh with him, and part of me wants to give up. From reading here, I KNOW what to do… I just need help some days with WANTING to do it. Can anyone help please?

Dear Saturn:

THANK YOU!!! I am SO glad you wrote what you did above! Lately, I’ve felt so disheartened – trying desperately to make things better between us, only to have you show little apparent concern toward what should be our common goal. I'd be happy to try to help and will to do so now that things have calmed down for me at the office (which, by the way, is where I am right now). Lately I've either been too busy or too tired from my recent work activities to devote much time to writing here (I’ve actually fallen asleep at red lights the past two mornings). I’ve tried to initiate conversations at home, but you have told me you’d prefer it in writing. So, here I am: in black and white.

I can’t help but feel that your medically-motivated diet is playing a tremendous role in your overall attitude. You didn’t used to be like this before your diet. Of course, I hadn’t confessed my innermost secrets before your diet either. As a result, it’s difficult to back up my statement with any real scientific facts. Let’s just call it a “gut feeling”.

Recently, you asked me to chime in on a thread, but I waited too long to do so beneficially. I can try to do so here, if that would help. I believe the topic centered around Plan A ( What Are Plan A and B ). Shortly thereafter, you e-mailed me:

“Basically, Plan A is being the best spouse you can be. Showing your wayward spouse that YOU are better than the OTHER WOMAN. If the wayward spouse is still acting poorly after 3 to 6 months of Plan A (I tried to do Plan A for 11 years, until 2002) then he recommends Plan B, which is separation and ‘going dark’.”

I read on the link you sent me: “Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.”

You may have done Plan A for 11 years, but it wasn’t via a mutually recognized negotiation process. I kept denying to myself and to you that the A ever happened. It wasn’t until recently that I found the maturity to inform you about the A and re-initiate the rebuilding process I wish I had started years and years ago. However, once you had me throw away the photos, THAT's when the initial rebuilding process began. I came to realize that I didn’t need them. I missed them only for a very short while. As I mentioned to you before, the A was purely sexual, with a hint of friendship mixed in. In other words, the A would never have happened if we had not initially been friends. However, the friendship wasn’t as strong as you'd like to believe it was, and the evidence of that is that I said “no” to her proposal of breaking things off with you and have had NC with her for over ten years. And I mean NO contact. Complete and total “separation and ‘going dark’”. I don’t miss her. I don’t wonder what she’s doing now or how she looks. I honestly don’t care. You may not believe me, but I’m starting to run out of ideas on how to prove this to you. I do, however, love you. I always have.

(As an aside… after reading the description of Plan A, I can’t help but think that this is what I did when you informed me about your EA. And this was without knowing MB even existed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> )

As I mentioned in my first paragraph, I’ve felt pretty disheartened by your attitude as of late. I want to fix “us” more than anything in the world. We can be SO awesome together, now that this albatross has been removed from my neck! We can tell each other anything. We can do anything. We can be anything – including the happily married couple with the two kids, the pretty house, and the white picket fence.

I have initiated contact with a MC and need to call her back to set up an appointment, but I felt responding to this was more important right now. She called me back again this afternoon… while I was immersed in yet ANOTHER meeting (!!!). As you know, I share an office and have yet to find an opportune moment to call her back. As soon as I do, I will. As I mentioned before, I will do ANYTHING to make us work. Not just work; be better than ever! Just give me the chance to prove what I (and we) can do. Please don’t shut me out. Please don’t withdraw. I can’t do this alone. You, of all people, should know this. How many years did you try to do it alone? How many years did you try to get the truth out of me? Now that I’ve told you the truth, this is when I need you the most. I know hearing it was hard. It was gut-wrenching. But if you’ll come back to me, emotionally, I promise you it will all be worth it. I love you.

Saturn,

I know where you are tonight. I have been there. Don't let your pain drive a wedge between you and the one person who can heal the pain with you. Keep the door open for Messdup. Everyone deserves a chance.

New rules for life -

Firs rule: Try not to spend too much time alone. Your mind begins the ruminations. Stay busy, stay involved in something active, preferably with other people.

Second rule: Just because you have ruminated on something does not make it true.


I noticed that you and I are both guilty of comparing ourselves in a very strange way to the OW. We both went with the "I think he would be better off with the OW" thought. Why is that, do you think? I just want to focus on one thought for tonight.

Is she really better than you are? I say no. I say this is a painful rumination, a fear. A huge fear that I know I carry.

Perhaps you carried it too, as a very young woman. I always felt "lesser" than other women when I was younger. Any woman I came into contact seemed more beautiful, smarter, classier, etc. In my own mind, I never measured up. I was always unconfortable, especially when my husband was around other women, because I just "knew" they would take him away from me (because they were better than I was). Maybe this is being carried into the present, because you felt that way back then about this OW? Back then, you might have felt she was more beautiful, talented? And still have those images of her?

Remember, she's older now, and so are you. What she was once, and what you were once, neither are any longer.

I read your posts, and find you to be very much an intelligent person. Someone who looks deep inside herself and searches for the truth, the deep, meaningful, truth - no matter if it hurts or gives joy. That is a person who is worth far more than gold. Messdup figured that out a long time ago, I am willing to guess!

Things have changed since you were young, just getting married. I am willing to bet that you are a much stronger person now than you were back then. A fuller person, deeper in emotion, more loving, more insightful, more compassionate. You've changed and just aren't that "little girl" anymore - don't compare her to the OW, because that little girl just isn't Saturn.

Messdup is in love with the woman he sees today. He left OW back in the past - probably about the same time he saw the gold in you. You left that little girl back there too...I think sometimes the tears blind you to it.

I know this because my tears blind me too.

SB

I love you schoolbus. You are straight from God! Thank you.

This post is one I will read over and over.

I hope someone helps you as much as you help me.

Thank you Messdup- for posting here again and for the long talk we had last night. I'm so sorry I'm standing in "our way".

Talking is important, I know. I'd also like a written form too... for several reasons. We can post here, or we can write in a marriage journal at home. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. We can "POJA" the method later, but I'd like to outline the reasons I like to write it all down.

First, sometimes I misunderstand your questions or comments. While we talk, it could get emotional and I may jump to conclusions... I may end up saying something hurtful that I don't really mean. When things are written down, I can ask for clarification and/or use extra time to think about what you're really trying to say. I'm a slow, deliberate thinker, and I need extra time for the important things.

Second, I also tend to re-write history in my head, depending on my mood. (For example, last night I told you "our marriage has been miserable". Obviously that is not true and you gently pointed that out. But I was in a bad mood and that was my perception at the time.) If we document our comversations, I can't re-write them in my head.

Finally, I do think that we will be a success story (in spite of my random grumpiness). I think we will make obvious progress in the next year and it will be so nice to look back and read how far we've come.

Does this make sense?

Yes, Saturn, it makes perfect sense. And thank YOU for talking about things last night. I need the verbal communication like you need the written form. Between the two, I think the healing will happen faster. As everyone indicates, this won't be easy. It has yet to be. However, together we can make it that much easiER.

Quoting you: "Finally, I do think that we will be a success story (in spite of my random grumpiness). I think we will make obvious progress in the next year and it will be so nice to look back and read how far we've come." I am so glad to read this. And I also agree. We WILL be a success story. We'll be MB poster children! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Bear in mind that we've already come so far in a very short amount of time. The honesty is flowing like a river and the water is fine!

Dear Schoolbus:

I'd tell you that I love you, too, but I don't think Saturn can handle that right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, you have been a tremdendous help to her and, as a result, to us. You truly are a wonderful person. Thank God for people like you!

I hope that if there's ever anything either of us can do for you, that we are able.

Thank you!!!

Messdup

Dear Saturn, MessedUp and all others that have posted here!!

I am fairly new to the site, but I can honestly say that I have been 'obssesed' with this particular post. I have been reading this for 2 days now (been at work and trying to 'squeeze' it in) BUT I can not express enough how much your post has hit me close to home. Your love for each other, you both fighting as hard as you are and the advise that others have given you has made me tear up numerous times in the past two days!!

My husband and I have such a similar story. Maybe not all of the details are the same...but there are many similarities and the feelings and emotions that you both have expressed seem so much the same as ours!! We both are also FWS's and FBS's...and the mixed emotions that you feel in this particular situation are very overwhleming. And for us, it seems to make this 'battle' that much harder and confusing. Let's just say that we have become experts at playing the 'blame game'!!

We have been married for 15 years. We got married very young...I was 18 and he was 19. I know, we were only kids. But here we are 15 years later and we are still together....barely...but we are!! Obviously, after 15 years our story is a long and messy one. But to make a long story short...my husband has had 3 ONS (all drunken and SUPPOSEDLY never sex) and I have had 1 EA with a co-worker that ended with a one-time kiss.

It all started about 2 years into our marriage (about 1993), shortly after I had given birth to our second child. We were home on leave (my husband was in the military at the time) and he 'ran into' a old girlfriend from highschool and she 'supposedly' gave him oral sex. I was devastated!! And to make matters worse he lied for many, many years. Swearing that nothing happened, more than a kiss. He would change his story so many times that I just knew he was lying, and that he actually slept with her. (Still do...) So from that point on, I felt like you did Saturn and pretty much felt like our marriage was a hugse lie. And that he 'settled' for me. So for many years I carried around all of this resentment and was just going thru the motions of life.

And then when I fianlly thought I was getting past it, then came the 2nd ONS(in about 2001), this one was a stranger that he met in a bar while out with his friends. And they 'supposedly' just kiss a few times, nothing more. By this time hubby had gotten out of the Marine Corp and we were living back here in our home state. So this time, I decided to 'split-up'. Obviously that didn't last long....so here I was again going thru the motions of my life of lies. Feeling numb!!

So in 2004, I starting to feel the 'spark of life' again when a co-worker was making his move. We talked for months...nothing more...then one evening after work we exchanged as kiss. IMMEDIATE REGRET!!!!! I went home told husband, and immediately began NC. Which later become very easy due to OM leaving to go to Iraq. (Which I will add he has since return, gotten married and is expecting a child--so NC is still being implied--except for the fact that I still work with him which I know is a big NO-NO)

Which then leads to husbands 3 and last ONS, it was about a year ago in August. Our friend was having a surprise B-Day party for his wife. And we were both invited but since I had a migrane I tols hubby to go ahead and go without me that he deserved to have some fun. So he goes, and after many many drinks later they all decide to go 'skinny-dipping' . Well...lets just say that our friends were in to some freakier stuff than we thought. It pretty much turned into a orgy, and I am sure they didn't have to twist hubby's arm to hard to join in. So he started kissing one of my friends friend )a girl I know...but not very well) And need I add that she was the ONLY single person there...not that it matters but it did to me...like at least with the others it was a mutual thing between all consenting couples...but for us, I wasn't there to give that consent. NOT that I would of!!!! Anyway, they supposedly kissed and 'touched' and then he asked her to do more. But as he was asking her he began to come to his senses and realize what was going on around him, and made the decision to leave.

WOW!!!! I REALLY didn't mean to write a book, but it felt good to vent. Obviously, there is SO much more, and many more factors that play into all of this. But I wanted to try to explain 'our story' to give you a better understanding.

But in saying all of this, I just want you to know that there are others like you out there. And the love and hope that you both express in your posts are an inspiration to us.And that no matter if your are the BS or the WS, this is a long hard road for all of us. And that we if love and fight hard enough that maybe, just maybe there is hope for us all!!

Thanks again for the inspiration, and good luck!!

PS I would also like to thanks all of you that have given Saturn and MessedUp all of the wonderful and thoughtful advice. You are not only helping them, but all of us out here!!

Again I apoligize for the length of this...lots ofbuolt up emotions I guess....Fullofdoubt

Hi fullofdoubt!
I remember you and your situation- I think I may have even posted to you once about being on "both sides" (BS and WS) and how it affects recovery.

I am very glad that you find our thread helpful. I was worried about posting my negative feelings yesterday- I didn't want to discourage anyone- but I was so glad to get schoolbus's response. She made me cry- she really understands! And she's right, of course. I needed to hear it. I'm so glad she is there, for me and YOU and people like us.

I wanted to talk about "the blame game". I think we can try to turn it into the "forgiveness game", since each of us understands how easy it is to make a mistake.

During my EA, I went to confession because I felt so horrible about my actions. The priest had an interesting response- he said that God was giving me a wonderful gift of empathy. (I was so surprised he didn't jump down my throat!) He pointed out to me that if my husband ever strayed, I would be able to look back at my own feelings and actions, and understand my husband's. He said I would be able to support my husband better because of my experience.

Do you ever feel this way?

Is your fedora getting soggy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wanted to tell people about this:



I've posted on other people's threads that you did an unbelievable job handling my affair. But I wanted to confirm it here. You did everything right. You were patient, you loved me like a rock, you honored our marriage and saw straight through my nonsense. You saved me from myself, and I'm so grateful to you for that.

I am so sorry that I hurt you. I never stopped loving you, I hope you know that.

To quote someone I know and admire, "You always know the right thing to say".

And yes, I know. I've never stopped loving you either.

Hi Saturn!!

Yes I do believe that you had replied to my post about being both the WS and BS. And for that I wanted to tell you thanks!! it feels good to now that there are others out there can that understand the mixed emotions and confusion that comes with being both. It just seems if you are either one or the other, the rules seem pretty cut and dry. But if you are both, the rules get a little foggy to which ones apply!!

You had mentioned, the wonderful responses that you have been getting and how SB's reply literally made you cry. I agree, I know while reading I had teared up many times. It seems like you and MessedUp have lucked out and been able to get some very positive and encouraging advise. Thanks and SB!!

As far as the "Blame Game"...what you said about how being both the WS and BS should give us that empathy is very true. But for my husband and I, I think we haven't looked at it that way as much as we should. I have to admit, I think that I am more to blame as far as playing the "Blame Game". I think that I have justified my EA, by claiming that if he hadn't hurt me all of those years that I would of never done it to him!!

Which I am not sure if that is true or not, I would like to believe it for the simple fact that it was 13 years, and after 2 A's of my husbands that I finally gave into infedelity. BUT deep down I also know that I am the only one that made the decision to cross that line...

Like I said, I personally think that being on both sides of the coin, only adds to the confusion of this situation. Do you ever feel like that?? And if so, what are you doing to lesson that confusion??

Do you and MessedUp have any children?? Do you ever feel that you are a hypacrite (spelling??) whenever you are trying to teach them a life lesson, and then you have to look in the mirror and think what am I doing?? Or what have I done?? What kind of role model am I....

I don't know, like you said in one of your post, I too am a big WORRIER. And this whole thing has only made that worry that much stronger. But I guess this is the bed I made for myself...

I do have another question, do either of you ever feel like 'too much damage has been done'?? I only ask because sometimes I just feel like my 'dream marriage' is never going to be attainable...or at least not with my husband. Gosh that really sounds bad doesn't it?!?!?!

Tnanks again for posting your story, it has been nice to hear both sides, your and messedup's. Because I think sometimes, I tend to ignore or lessons my husbands feelings about all of this. So it has been nice getting the mans perspective as well.

I wish you both all the luck!!

Fullofdoubt