Hi again fullofdoubt!

I'll try to answer your questions. My head is a mess and my answers will change from day to day, but here is what I feel right now:



To be completely honest, I don't think that being both wayward and betrayed has confused me. This is just my personality I guess. I think having seen the pain from both sides actually makes me see the whole situation with more clarity. I realize how COMMON affairs are, and how no one is vulnerable. I think it is true that we are all "hard-wired" for infidelity, as Dr. Harley says. To remain faithful to one person forever is really, really difficult! That is why being completely faithful is so precious, and should be celebrated when we achieve it.




Yes, we have two children- two boys age 6 and 1. They are so little and innocent right now, but I know teaching the hard stuff is coming! Messdup and I have different approaches to parenting... he might freak out at my answer here. But I believe that I should not try to be "perfect" for my kids. I'm human; I've made plenty of mistakes. And I'll make plenty more! The important thing I try to teach our boys is to first IDENTIFY when I've made a mistake, then MAKE AMENDS if possible, and finally AVOID making the same mistake twice. That's my goal as a parent- if my boys can learn that (hopefully from my example), then I will be proud of them no matter what happens.



Yes, I often feel that way. In spite of schoolbus's post, I still wonder if Messdup would be happier with OW. She looks like Angelina Jolie (with glasses). But that is a hypothetical question, and I should focus on what is real. "Shoulda woulda coulda" doesn't matter now. What matters is how we play the hand that was dealt to us.

I've read so many amazing success stories here- situations that I personally would discount as impossible to overcome! I think it's way too early to make assumptions about "too much damage" for you and your husband. I have more to say to you, fullofdoubt, but I need to get back to work! I'll check in later. I hope these answers help you.

fullofdoubt-

I also wanted to tell you that I also felt this way:



But now I feel differently. I realize that I was using my husband's behavior as an excuse for my own behavior. It was an excuse not a reason. The real reason was that I felt ENTITLED to have an affair. Now when I start feeling "entitled", I stop and think really hard about what I'm doing. Because, as you know, that is a good way to get into a heap of trouble.

As you mentioned in your post, at the end of the day it is me and my mirror. I want to be able to look at myself in the eye and feel that I did the right thing.

I also sense from your posts that you are pretty sure your husband is still hiding something from you. I know that feeling!!! It is very frustrating and you will NOT be able to really recover until your husband can be honest with you.

Just Learning helped me with this. As you know, there is no way that you can make your husband tell you anything. But you can set up the environment to make him more likely to open up to you. Basically, JL told me that husbands need to feel "safe" to be honest. That means you must withold judgement and anger, and instead surround your husband with love and understanding no matter what he will say.

I started doing this in July and less than 3 weeks later, Messdup revealed to me that he visited a prostitute. I handled that really well... so a few weeks later he went on to tell me about his first affair. I did NOT handle that well at all, so I need to start over in earning his trust to be honest with me! But I wanted to tell you that JL's suggestion worked for me and Messdup, and so I hope it could work for you too. Just don't ask any questions if you may not want to know the answer...

Good luck to you and your husband!

This is Messdup's wife but sometimes I think I'm the one that is messed up. I have been distant and sad at home. Today is Saturday and I'm at work right now- I do have work to do but also I'm here because I want to avoid my family.

The thing that is bothering me is STD. Messdup has symptoms of one, probably from visiting a prositute 5 years ago. I didn't know about that until last month. It is my belief that he told me because the symptoms were becoming obvious and he couldn't hide them from me. He's being treated and his body is responding well to the medication.

I don't have any symptoms and all my tests have come back negative. However, we have been intimate and I know that the disease is just latent in me. I hate that feeling and I hate myself for making the choices that put me in this situation (namely, marrying him in the first place... then later trying to "regain intimacy" in our marriage with SF- I should have just left him to his porn and his STD). I know how mean that sounds. I'm sorry.

Messdup is truly remorseful and has recently tried so hard to be the husband I aways wanted. I know that he made a mistake a long time ago and that he deserves a second chance. But I am so sad. I feel "ruined" and "stupid". I feel trapped. I feel lonely. I don't know what to do.

I haven't talked to him about my feelings yet- I've just been pushing him away. I'll talk to him tonight. I wanted to post my feelings here first in case someone had some helpful words... usually that is the case.

Thanks everyone.

OK, Messdup and I talked tonight (he also read what I wrote here). We went over the same old topics: I think we made a mistake by getting married; he thinks we just haven't "connected" over the past 16 years because he was feeling so guilty about his pre-marriage affair. I think our relationship is doomed; he thinks we can work it out.

He asked me to consider anti-depressants. I said no. He asked me to spend more time with him, so we can work on our relationship. I said yes.

He asked me to provide him with a list of things I thought we could do to recover our marriage: I said I will if he will. He said he's not a list-maker; I said I'm not a list-sharer (that was childish of me). So here's my marriage recovery list:

1) Fix his sleep apnea (I've been sleeping in a different room for 3 years, because his snoring is impossible).
2) SF at least once if not twice a week.
3) A date without children once a week
4) Hug good morning and good night
5) Limit "relationship talk" to once a week.
6) Thank him sincerely for something at least twice a week.
7) Praise him in front of someone else (admiration)
8) Limit my schoolwork to two nights per week- the other nights are for him and me (15 hours of undivided attention)
9) Attend marriage counseling (first session together is Monday)
10) Post significant progress or pitfalls here on this thread. (note to Messdup: perhaps a thread title change is in order? Something catchy- he's good at that)

I hope Messdup reconsiders his inability to make lists. I hope he likes mine. He can add to it if he'd like.
***********

Neither he nor I will leave the marriage. He is staying because he says he loves me; I am staying because I don't want the kids to have a broken home. Messdup points out that since we're here, we might as well try to enjoy it. He is right... but I'm scared.

Dear Saturn:

Thank you for the talk and thank you also for sharing your list (I love it!). I made a work-related list recently, per your suggestion, and it helped me in keeping track of my projects. I'm sure I can make an us-related list, too. And I'm sure I can come up with a new catchy thread as well. This late hour, though, affords neither creativity nor introspection. Please stay tuned.

Thank you also for leaving the computer on, otherwise I wouldn't have checked this site until much later and wouldn't have received the spark of hope I needed tonight.

I love you...
Messdup

Messdup and I just finished our first joint marriage counseling session. I really like the counselor and I think Messdup does too. She would like us both to read "After the Affair" at the same time. Our homework is to start reading the book and also to decide whether we can commit working on our relationship (both feet in) for a set amount of time (9 to 12 months).

One topic that we worked today was my repeated attempts to "sabatoge" our marriage. I know that I do this, and why. I'm really scared that our marriage won't improve, so I would like it to end now, rather than after investing so much hard work into the recovery.

The counselor said something that really hit home with me. She said I'll have to work on recovery even if the marriage ends. There is no way to avoid the work and the pain. If Messdup leaves, he won't take the pain with him.

With that one statement she removed my motivation to push Messdup away. I wanted to document this change in my perspective because I think it will have a profound affect on me. I don't want to forget it.

Thank you Messdup for going to counseling with me. And for everything else you did today (I was having a panic attack this morning, and he was my rock). I do love you. I'm sorry it's hard for me to say it some days.

Dear Saturn:

Thank you again for the list. This really means a lot to me. It helps reaffirm that that wonderful woman I married 15 years ago is still there, despite what I’ve put her through. Thank you also for joining me for a little one-on-one dinner this evening. It’s nice just being “us” sometimes, without the kids, no matter how wonderful they are. I’m glad we were able to find a copy of “After the Affair” after dinner. I’m looking forward to reading it with you and moving forward with our re-building.

As promised (better late than never?), here’s my list of things I think we can do to recover our marriage. You may note some similarity between yours and mine, which is completely coincidental. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Actually, I decided to comment on your list then add my own little “somethings” at the end.

1. Fix my sleep apnea. Oh yeah. Definitely numero uno on my list, too. For not only the reason of being able to finally sleep with you again (which will be awesome!), but also for my own physical and mental health and the overall health of our family. I know I’ll have a clearer mind and will be able to devote myself more completely to our marriage and family if I’m not always walking around in a bad mood due to lack of sleep or a semi-comatose state.

2. SF at least once if not twice a week. I’m still working on learning all these abbreviations, but I’m pretty sure I know what this one means! If once is good, twice is even better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

3. A date without children once a week. I’m not sure how feasible this is, but I’m all for it if we can make it work. Good thing we know a good pair of sitters!

4. Hug good morning and good night. You really know how to get me, don’t you? I love hugging you. However, I humbly request the occasional off-peak-hours hug every once in a while, too.

5. Limit "relationship talk" to once a week. This is probably a good idea, especially since whenever we “talk”, it brings up the hurt again. However, I wouldn’t want to stifle our growth if a topic comes up that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Perhaps we can move in this direction but play this one by ear?

6. Thank him sincerely for something at least twice a week. This is nice, but I think you deserve the thanks around our house more than I do. I guess I won’t turn it down if you’re offering though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

7. Praise him in front of someone else (admiration). I don’t need public admiration. Just knowing that YOU recognize/acknowledge an accomplishment of mine, large or small, is reward enough for me.

8. Limit my schoolwork to two nights per week- the other nights are for him and me (15 hours of undivided attention). Only you know for sure if this is feasible. I don’t want to get in the way of your academic success. You already have a full plate as it is – with kids, a full-time job, taking care of the home, putting up with me, etc. But I do welcome more time with you. And yes, that even includes cleaning the bathroom. As long as we’re doing it together. Although, I’m not sure if that actually qualifies as “undivided attention”. Sometimes the toilet can be pretty demanding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

9. Attend marriage counseling. As you mentioned in your post, I think this went REALLY well. I like her, and the cockeyed optimist in me thinks she can really help us. I have a feeling that she’ll tell us things about us that are right on the money but we really hadn’t thought about before. Good stuff ahead!

10. Post significant progress or pitfalls here on this thread. This may be one of the best ideas on this list. Ever since we started this process, I have felt better thanks to the input of fellow MB-ers here. So much genuine, heartfelt, and worthwhile feedback. Kind of a “MC-lite”. What a concept. And as far as a new thread is concerned, how about one named, “All Four Feet”? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

11. (Yes, now we’re getting into my additions.) Be honest with you. No matter how painful, the only way for you to truly trust me again is if you see me as the man I know I am now – and that is one who is honest and trustworthy. I’m not perfect. I’ll make mistakes here and there. However, I will never, ever again put you through the hurt I have already. I want you to know that, not just from my lips (or typing fingers), but in your own heart as well. That won’t happen overnight. I know that. No one ever said this would be easy. But this isn’t a situation I’ll be walking away from, not when I can put my best foot forward and show you the new man I am. You once wrote, “It would be great if you felt comfortable enough with me to bring things up that bother you.” Well, I feel that way now. It “only” took 15 years of marriage, but I’m there now. Finally. Sorry it took so long.

12. Compliment you on your successes, both large and small. You are an extremely bright, hard-working individual. Sometimes, okay – much of the time, I get wrapped-up in my job and forget that there are actually two of us working our collective butts off in the workforce. And you’re in a field that typically doesn’t allow for growth if you’re a woman. Yet you still persist. You still make strides. You still manage to make a name for yourself. You still generate funding. You still manage to make A’s in your classes. You still have two children who love and respect you. You still look younger than 30. All this despite the numerous obstacles. If I haven’t told you lately, I respect you, too. Maybe during some of our “us” time, you could help me understand more about what you do on any given day/week. That way, when you tell me about a victory you achieve, it will mean that much more to me and I can give you more of the genuine kudos you truly deserve.

13. Help you with household chores. As I stated earlier, I enjoy doing things with you. Even mundane things such as scrubbing the shower floor. And you shouldn’t feel like you have to do it alone. We already share much of the daily chores; I think the weekly ones could go faster and more enjoyably if we did them together.

14. Let you process your feelings without trying to make you feel like you shouldn’t feel the way you do. The A happened 16 years ago, but to you, it was only two months ago. You still have feelings to deal with and wounds to heal. It has been over for me for SO long. For you, it’s only beginning. I am here, though. And I will do whatever it takes to make things better between us. I love you. I always have.

Hi there. I see you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for posting last night. My favorites were your commitment to honesty and openess (#11) and allowing me to process feelings (#13).

I feel that in order to get "over" feelings, the quickest way is to go straight "through" them. That means feeling eveything and then letting it go. Thanks for allowing me the freedom to do that. As you know, my dark moods last for just a few days. I'm stronger than you think.

And you're more capable than I thought. Your willingness to do this hard work is such a pleasant surprise to me. My eyes are opening to the real you, and I find you very attractive <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is that with or without the fedora? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

With the fedora, without the armor (I can actually SEE you now, and I like having your complete attention since you're no longer focused on hiding those chinks.)

I’ve had another change in perspective that I wanted to document here so I don’t forget it.

I’ve been telling myself that Messdup chose to stay with me instead of OW because I was “convenient” and “practical”. We were, after all, engaged when he had his affair. The church had been reserved, our friends and families were happy and proudly anticipating the wedding. Our next career steps had been mapped out as a team. If Messdup chose OW, his family would be pissed, our friends would be confused, my Dad would want to KILL him, and our career plans would be broken. So I looked like the best “logical” choice, although OW and Messdup shared more common interests and probably would have been very happy together if he met her first.

Now, in the recovery phase of our marriage, I have been telling myself the same thing. Messdup only wants to stay in our marriage because it would be inconvenient and embarrassing to divorce. It would hurt our children, in-laws, and friends. It would be expensive. So I’ve been assuming that we are not compatible, and Messdup would be happier with someone else, but he’s staying because it’s the most convenient choice.

I’m reading “After the Affair” and the middle section of the book deals with this type of doubt. It doesn’t deny the convenience factor for being a strong reason to stay, but the author suggests looking at it as a positive instead of a negative. Yes, Messdup is more comfortable with me. He’s happy in his home, family, friends and children. He enjoys the financial security we have made together. Of course he doesn’t want to give that up.

But what I’ve been missing is that I am the only one that can provide this “comfort” for him. He wants the whole package, and I’m the only one that can give it to him. It makes me unique and special. Not OW, not another random woman he will meet in the future who also enjoys music and theater… just me. He and I share the “common interest” of our life we’ve built over the past 20 years. That’s very strong, but I’ve been minimizing it until today.

Well, I said that we would post our recovery process (ups and downs) here on one thread so I’m “catching up”. It has been about 5 months from D-day for me (when Messdup confessed his previous physical affairs, which are long dead). It has been about 2 years from D-day for Messdup, when I was active in an emotional affair with an ex-boyfriend and lying to my husband about continuing contact. My EA ended a few months after that.
********************************************
I wrote a recovery plan last week and Messdup approved it. He will write another plan from his point of view.

It was my birthday last weekend and Messdup arranged an overnight stay at a beautiful Bed & Breakfast for just the two of us. He had put so much thought into the evening, and wanted everything to be perfect. I was nervous and felt a bit pressured to not let him down. In the end it was fun and we both had a good time. I felt drained when we came home- I was trying so hard to forget everything and it took a lot of energy.

We have ups and downs, mainly due to my shifting emotional state. Often I’m hopeful that we can get through this. Other times I feel trapped and angry.

I think that I’m having a tough time following the plan when I’m in the “trapped and angry” phase. All I want to do is withdraw. It takes so much effort for me to push myself to spend the 15 hours with him, to be intimate, and to communicate openly when I’m in that state of mind. I failed the past couple days and barely spoke to him. It’s not his fault, it’s mine.

I’m torn between “fake it til you make it” behavior and radical honesty. Which will help us the most? Should I smile and pretend that I look forward to time with him, even if I’m not? Or should I be 100% honest with him and tell him- sometimes I don’t think I can do this? The poor guy is so confused- I’m sending different messages every day.

I didn't want to threadjack tosadtosmile's thread in emotional needs but I think star*fish has some really good points. I wanted to expand on them here.

star*fish says:


My problem is that I think my husband enjoys spending time with me, but I find it hard to be upbeat and smiling every time I'm around him. I withdraw to recharge my batteries because it takes a lot of energy for me to do this recovery.

star*fish also asked me directly:


It does help me to withdraw. I'm an introvert and that's what introverts do when they feel stressed. It appears like I'm punishing my husband when I do that, though. It often takes me about 2 days to feel better, but sometimes it's longer. When I emerge I can go back to the program, but by then he's so confused and hurt that I have lots of damage to repair.

I am worried that he has high expectations of me, and of us. When I get discouraged I feel like I'm letting him down. He gets sad and impatient, and I know it's because of me and my withdrawal. The negative feelings feed each other.

So- I know I shouldn't withdraw. But I don't have enough energy to do the recovery program every day. How do I handle the bad days without inhibiting progress?

Hi SR,

Ok, as you can no doubt deduce I have some thoughts for you.

First, the concept of "radical honesty" rather than the concept of "brutal honesty". I think you are doing your H a great disservice here, and in the process you are hurting yourself and your marriage.

You said in response to Star's excellent question
Sitting here I am just struck by the HUGE disrespectful judgements you are using with these statements. Permit me to explain.

First, who says you have to be upbeat every time you are around him? Don't you think he is a big enough boy to handle that you have ups and downs?? Further you indicate that these ups and downs are not of his doing.

So rather than "fake" the constant up, why not explain your needs to him. It is possible that your batteries will not be recharged so often, and that he can accomodate your needs rather easily. You assume he will NOT understand and further if he does understand he cannot handle it. Yet, you do withdraw, you do run your batteries down, and you are lying to him.

I just don't see the win here. Yes, your H loves spending time with you, but he would NOT if he knew that you did not want to be around him. He would probably just as soon you were honest and then he would KNOW that when you were around him YOU WANTED TO BE AROUND HIM. You are holding him hostage for something only you can control.

You then ask
To quote Dr. Phil, "How is that workin fer ya?" Quit confusing the man. Tell him you need a little time to be an introvert and that you still love him. I don't think your plan to keep damaging him to fill your needs the way you are doing is a good plan at all. Or to quote Spock, "This is very illogical."

Why are you worried about this?? You should KNOW what his expectations are...because you have asked him. I think you might be surprised that he has high expectations for himself, and that he is trying to make HIMSELF a better H. He has alot more confidence in you than he does himself.



Of course they do, do you know why? The man has had his antena tuned up. He is paying attention to you, he loves you, he knows he has messed up (hence his name). He is going to respond to everything you do and don't do. The only issue is whether is he going to be responding to his guessing of what you feel and think or is he going to be responding to YOU, because you have been open enough with him to tell him your needs, your thoughts and your ever moving feelings. Your call, easy to fix.


Recovery is tough, but you are making it tougher because you are NOT letting him help. YOu are placing too much pressure on yourself, and you are NOT trusting your H to help you. Doing it YOUR way is going to take a lot more energy than it should. Doing it TOGETHER will take less energy but more honesty.

SR, this stuff is NOT for wimps. You are not a wimp, but you are making it harder on yourself. There a minimum energy trajectories, and then there are high energy trajectories. You choose the trajectory you want and need. The arrival point is still the same.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL! I love it when I get your advice. Thank you for taking the time to help me (us).



Well, star*fish says. In the other thread, she was describing how she recovered her marriage. She changed, and then her husband changed. She told us that she resolved to be happy and upbeat in conversations with her husband, so that he would enjoy the time he spent with her. That sounds like great advice, but I know that I can't be happy and upbeat all the time. I asked her- what did she do when she was having a bad day? She responded that she did things to take care of herself and improve her mindset. She also told me:



So, it does seem like she advises me to avoid being unhappy around him...

Also, my husband himself prefers me to be happy around him. He feels that he failed personally if I'm not smiling, because making me happy is his goal. I feel like I let him down if I'm not.



I did ask him. And yes he has high expectations of me. Of US. Here was his description of his expectations:

"Happier; fewer arguments/disagreements; ability to handle said disagreements in a more amiable, quicker, and more fulfilling manner; the ability to relate to each other in ways we never knew possible; a more comprehensive understanding of each other's wants and needs along with an improved ability and desire to help fulfill them; possessing stronger love, respect and trust for each other."


Messdup is consistently upbeat and optimistic around me. He is always telling me how great we are together, how things are always getting better, how terrific our relationship is. He never expresses doubt or discouragement. Just look at his posts. I feel terrible when I have a down day. Like I'm the reason we aren't the perfect couple already.

Thanks again JL for digging through two threads to give me advice. I do realize that I need to be completely upfront and honest with my husband. I just feel like I'm letting him down when I express negative thoughts.

Thanks again-
~Saturn

edited for clarity

Dear JL: I echo Saturn's thanks. You always do seem to share a healthy dose reality in your advice.

Dear Saturn: As JL expresses,

Yes, I am a big enough boy. Just hit the big four-oh, as you recall. But not just big in years; big in love. Test me. See what I can handle. You're not letting me down when you express negative thoughts. But you are letting US down when you don't. I don't always need to know exactly what's bothering you, but it would be nice to know that you're in the midst of "handling things" (for lack of a better term) regarding our marriage. Otherwise, I do tend to jump to conclusions and wrack my brain trying to think of what I may have done or said, or NOT done or said that may have upset you. I think it's much better to know rather than not know. I think you would want that from me, too, wouldn't you? To quote JL: That would be AWESOME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You're just such a friggin' perfect recovery poster-boy I want to slap you.

I'm a smart person, I have read hundreds of MB articles and threads on recovery, so why can't I just GET OVER THIS???? What's wrong with me?

I want to be alone now.
Love,
~Saturn

PS. It really pisses me off that you're better at this than I am. I want to hate you, but you're making it hard.

I had to smile SR. Its so true for me as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I am the one that spends hours on MB, reading, trying to get everything just right and my H, the BS, hardly ever drops in to MB and then only to say hi to some old posters and he’s so over everything its annoying! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The hard thing to come to terms with was the realisation that our old M was dead and gone. We had to have a new one, we had to CHOOSE each other again and commit to each other all over again. Yes we had kids (16 & 17 at the time) and yes we felt we had to really try for them as well as ourselves.
And there were and are some moments of doubt and pain, but is that different from any relationship?

Recovery can have some totally surprising results.!!
We had quite unexpectedly another child, a bright happy little boy 19 months old now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SR you are doing ok and you will get over this when you have finished processing what you need to. The timetable is your timetable. Everyone is different.

Thank you aussieswife-
I'm glad your marriage recovery went well. We also have a little boy that was the unexpected result of our recovery from MY affair. He's 17 months old now.

I think I'm withdrawing from my husband not just because I'm tired and need to recharge my batteries, but also because I'm scared to be emotionally vulnerable again.

OK, I actually am a wimp and I suck at this. I can be radically honest with myself too.

SR,

I will reply to this post first then your other one.

You said
Yup, I think most of us are afraid to be emotionally vulnerable whether we have been cheated on or not. It was one of THE things I learned on this site. To open my mouth and tell my W what I wanted and needed.

So consider yourself normal. But, here is something to consider. IF you were/are willing to leave this marriage, or consider it, then what have you got to be afraid of? If being emotionally vulnerable is risky, it is only risky with regard to rejection. But, you have considered leaving anyway. Wouldn't you rather have "love and lost" rathen than "never loved at all?"

You really are not at risk. You stand to gain a great marriage with a man that is devoted to you. As you become vulnerable, you become powerful as well. You stand to lose your marriage if it is not successful, but that is something you have already considered.

Girl, you need to do a new risk assessment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here is one final thought. You AND Messedup have and are learning how to have a relationship. If you don't believe me sit down with him tonight and ask him what he has learned about himself, about you, and about marriage and relationships. Then ask him what he desires more than anything.




Not really you are here, and this stuff is NOT FOR WIMPS. You simply need to reevaluate your risk/reward scenario and I think your perpsective will change. With that change will come the realization that you can win AND so can your H. Thus, your family wins as well.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL