OK SR,

Now we address your longer post. You posted Notice she did not say pull away from her H. She took care of herself and improved her mindset. You are not getting conflicting information from Star and I. Her taking care of herself, and your introverted time could well be the same thing. Remember this is about YOU, not your H.



She is telling you to work on being happy around him, which means being happy with yourself. She is telling you that any one prefers a happy partner to a sad one, but that does not mean a partner should not be there for you when you are said. That is what those marriage vows meant. They are vows and taken seriously because everyone knows that marriages have ups and downs. People have ups and downs.

If there were no downs, marriage vows would not be necessary, this stuff would be easy.


Ah! here is where you two need to talk. He failed if he did something to make you unhappy. He failed if he did not comfort you when something has made you unhappy. He is a fool if he thinks your happiness is tied directly to him, it is within you that your happiness comes. You are letting him down if you are not honest with him. You are letting him down if you do not respond kindly to his attempts to make you happy. You are letting yourself down if you don't see that he values you and a measure that his efforts are successful is your happiness, that is why he must know when you are not, and why.

Next you said
Don't you just love us guys SR? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> We see a problem, we want to fix it...right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Now his goal is to make amends for his not being a good H to you, to "fix" the marriage. A measure of a good marriage is happiness, or perhaps contentment, or is that safety, or??? There are many measures of a good marriage, and YOU need to put your two cents worth into this goal setting.

But, SR, the very fact that he wants to fix this, means you really need to tell him when you are down. AND THEN, tell him what he can do to help. Perhaps it is a neck rub. Perhaps just for him to sit quietly and hold you. Perhaps for him to take care of the kids while you sort things out. Perhaps, for him to let you give him a kiss and then send him off to do other things. Perhaps...all he needs is to hear your wishes.

Let me ask you something. If your H were really down about something wouldn't you ask? If it was his job would you sit and listen and perhaps offer suggestions? If it was his fears about the marriage, himself, whatever wouldn't you listen and then try to help in some way?

I think you would. So why not allow him to do the same. As I said to you on the other post, you really have nothing to lose being emotionally vulnerable. You do stand to lose your marriage if you are not.

Frankly, you come across as a very very bright woman. YOu come across as someone who really does NOT NEED to be married to your H or anyone else. But, what you may not realize is that your H needs to be needed AND you might as well.

Somethings to consider and think about. You make it, I have no fear. Just hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hi again JL, and thank you again for writing.

Your words about risk relate to a thought that has been running through my mind for a few weeks. The thought is quite negative, but you put a nice spin on it.

Before I met Messdup, I had a serious relationship that I broke off because my boyfriend cheated on me. Messdup knew my history, and while we were dating we discussed that being unfaithful was one thing I would not tolerate. I was very clear about that. I also learned from my boyfriend's behavior, and adjusted my own actions so that I'd be less likely to experience that horror again (that was the plan anyway). So, when Messdup was unfaithful during our engagement, he made sure I wouldn't know about it. Unlike my previous boyfriend, Messdup lied when confronted with suspicious evidence because he knew I would leave him if I knew the truth. I believed his lie and obviously went on with the wedding.

Last week, instead of withdrawing, I told him that I was sad. I said that I was sad because I was in the exact situation that I had tried so hard to avoid. I told him "my marriage with you became my worst case scenario. Even after discussing it, being honest, trying hard to avoid it, it happened anyway." He said he was sorry, and he was quiet and down after that.

That thought- I tried hard to avoid this situation but it happened anyway- made me feel powerless. Like all the MB principles won't mean a hill of beans if he doesn't change... and I have no control over him... therefore it's all random and out of my hands... so why even try... you get the picture. The spin you put on it for me is this: the worst already happened, and it sucks but I lived through it. So- what do I have to be afraid of? Thank you JL for revealing a different perspective to me.

God bless you too-
~Saturn

SR,

Your more than welcome, but let me spin this even further.

MB will not prevent affairs completely, people fail. What it can do is help each of the people involved learn, grow, and enjoy their marriage better. Your H's affair occured before you were married. Yes he lied.

Let me explain something to you. I have been here a long time. If I had a dollar for every time someone has come here and said "I always said, if my spouse cheats I am gone." I would be retired right now. If I had a dollar for all of the times I have heard my male friends say: "if I find my W cheating, I'll kill her and then divorce her." I would be retired.

SR, the issue is really about healing, learning, and growing. Some people can, some people cannot. Some situations should be saved, some should not.

Yes you have lived through it, and you have an H that does love you. That is pretty special, and yes MB can and apparently is helping your H as well. But, let me ask you something, you had an EA right? How did you justify it to yourself. Didn't entail lying to your H? Didn't it entail crossing your own boundaries?

Have you reflected on how easy it was to convince yourself to do this? Have you reflected on how it must have hurt your H? Have you not learned from it? Isn't very unlikely you would ever take that approach to solving your problems again?

Given all of that, can you not see that your H could learn as well. Can you not see that he has grown and changed and continues now? Can you not find it in your heart to understand that you are loved, and strong enough to handle love?

SR, to quote Churchill, you have "nothing to fear but fear itself." Isn't it time to step back and see that you are human, your H is human, and that neither of you are perfect BUT you are both striving to be the spouse you vowed to be those years ago?

I hope your perspective continues to change because I think you two are destined to have a very good marriage, if you will simply allow yourselves to be amazed how good your spouse is, although human. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

SR

I thought that maybe a good thought would help you just a bit.

OK your now Husband DID cheat on you before you were MARRIED. Lets not pretend it hurts less, I bet it does.

BUT once he committed to the M by getting M to you he has been faithful. That should at least be a very good indication of his love and commitment to you.

As foolish young man he stuffed up, as your Husband he's been there for you.

You know, that not bad at all when you think about it.
Remember you need time to process this information, it won't happen over night and also recognise he forgave you and is moving on ..well I assume that anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
(No I'm not saying 2 wrongs make it even, cheating is just cheating thats it & wrong no matter what provocation)

Your H also needs to recognise you need the time to work through this. I bet he had [maybe still has??] some reservations from your ea as well. You just need to both work on this M and not try to push to hard. You are doing well. God bless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi again aussieswife-

You are so sweet to try to cheer me up. Unfortunately, my husband was not faithful during marriage either.

The guilt he felt from the first affair (when we were just engaged) led him to put up a wall between us. I noticed something was wrong then but didn't know what it was. That lack of intimacy over time led him to develop a porn addiction, visit prostitutes (caught an STD from this), and engage in an EA with a co-worker.

I WISH the first affair was the only affair! He was unfaithful for 13 years (12 while married), but has been faithful since 2003. He confessed his "secret life" to me this summer.

The many times and many ways he was unfaithful makes me worried. However, he stopped on his own and he confessed on his own. That means a lot to me. Also, we are working hard to address the core issues behind his choices. Like JL says, my husband is changing and past performance will not necessarily indicate future behavior.

I focus most on the first affair because that was the key event that affected the rest of our marriage. If it had been handled differently back then, things would have been so much better. There was so much lost time between then and now that I regret.

I am not diminishing the damage I did to our marriage with my own poor choice to have an EA. We are certainly addressing those issues too! Messdup almost never brings it up. I hope that I am doing the right things to reassure him that I will not choose to repeat my mistake. If I can do more, I hope he lets me know (are you listening honey?? If so, could you address that question here if you have time?)

Thanks again for your kind words aussieswife! And- hows's your toddler?? Aren't they fun?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dear Saturn:

I honestly can't think of anything more that you could be doing to reassure me that you will not choose to resume your EA with the OM or any other for that matter. As I've said before, your honest approach to this transgression is all the proof I need that you will try to avoid future occurences. I've seen the pain in your eyes and know you're for real.

I just wish I knew of ways to allay your concerns. I was hoping star*fish (or anyone else?) would have some good advice along these lines, especially on your darker days.

Love you...
MU

Thank you for letting me know that I'm doing ok with my own "mess-up". I hope that if you have any worries that you'll let me know.

Those dark days suck, for both of us. I do think star*fish and myschae gave me some good advice on the other thread (take care of myself- make a PLAN for when I need to pull back, so I can re-emerge as soon as possible).

JL also advised me to let you help me, rather than push you away. I usually don't like to be touched when I'm in this mood, but I requested a backrub Sunday night as an experiment to see if JL's way would work. It did; I didn't expect that. Pleasant surprise. [JL is rolling his eyes, wondering when I will ever learn....]

Love you too even when I'm grumpy-
~Saturn

SR,

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JL

Messdup said:



I've been consciously trying to NOT withdraw when I'm having trouble. Last Friday, I sent Messdup an email telling him that I was frustrated because I felt that I was "working harder" than he was at recovery. On Monday he responded and acknowledged that yes, I was working harder than he was. He promised to try harder soon.

I told him I was looking forward to his increased efforts.

Last night, Wednesday, I cracked and told him I didn't want to spend time with him (we attempt 15 hours of undivided attention each week) because I was still frustrated at his lack of effort.

He was sad after I said that. He explained that he was busy. He has been busy for weeks. I told him that I felt like a low priority to him. He asked me to be patient.

He said that he didn't like it when I was negative like this. He said that it's easier for him to put in effort when I'm happy. He said that I make him feel like an [censored]. He wonders when I'll stop punishing him for what he did so long ago.

I said that it was easier for me to act happy if he puts in some effort...

We are at a stalemate. We barely spoke to each other this morning. I feel frustrated because I asked for his help, and he just isn't able to help me now. He's busy with work.

I feel like I should just shut up when I'm frustrated, because telling him did not having a positive effect.

Perhaps I told him the wrong way? I'm new at this- usually I just go crawl under a rock until I get myself into a better mood.

SR:

Messedup need to rearrange the work schedule.

I had to too. Because it creates the conflict you describe and the 15 hours moves to the back burners.

Schedule the 15 hours first. Then the rest of the time gets filled in. Job, Kids, Cleaning, etc. It makes a world of difference....

And everyone has control of thier schedule at work. And if he doesn't and it ia that out of control, then he needs to find a new job.

Thanks LG!

Actually, the 15 hours isn't the problem. It is the hard recovery work that's the problem.

Messdup is fun, and likes things to be enjoyable. He likes to spend time with me and we can get 15 hours together each week (as long as I don't crawl under a rock). We make sure the 15 hours is enjoyable- we don't do any relationship talk then.

But when I ask him to do "recovery stuff", he is too busy. He is half-way through "After the Affair"- those 140 pages took him 4 months to read. He says it is so depressing that he can barely bring himself to pick it up. I asked him to develop a recovery plan several weeks ago, and he hasn't come up with one. I reminded him 3 times (about once a week) and each time he says he's too busy or too tired.

He would rather just focus on the positive and have fun together. That's his recovery plan. He thinks if we enjoy each other's company, then it's all good. No reason to drudge up the past. Live happily ever after.

I do want to enjoy his company, but I also want to dig out the problems in our relationship so we can fix them. I want our marriage to be "new and improved". I do think we have some work to do, like learning how to discuss conflicts and negotiate.

He's so mad at me right now. He is hardly speaking to me. I feel like I'm doing the wrong thing by requesting him to do "hard work". I have retreated to keep the peace. I told him that I was going to put more energy into finding my own happiness. I know it's the wrong approach- I should be working with him not by myself, but I feel smacked down when I bring up problems.

SR:

There is no reason that sometimes a portion of the 15 hours cannot consist of you two working the recovery plan.

Fun and excitement? Well lets expand the 15 hours to include as much of that as we can. But the 15 hours can be used to address issues in the M.

And if he is finding it difficult to read ATA, does he need to finish it? or is it a block you needed checked off? Think about that.

My W and I are having some of these same issues. As the Wayward spouse, it falls to me to do the work. But we read the books, and went to the MB weekend, but I can say that we have not finished all 8 chapters. And this is annoying to BS. And it is something I should schedule up and get done. But I don't. And I do not know why....

Messedup could be in the same place. Were guys. We do not like to be told what to do. But why don't we just do it? Something about Mars/Venus....

And your quote:



I understand this completly. It just depends on what part of the past that gets drudged up. My BS can give me the "litany" Every perceived wrong since we first met. And it can be crushing to your spouse, because in most cases you kick every EN quite squarely. And she expects me to answer back with my list of what she did wrong. And I do not have a list. And I have told her in the past what bothered me. But, after I do that, and there is the blow up, I can move past it. I will call her out if she does it again, but otherwise, it's done. That's not true with her. How about you?

It's not "happily ever after" It's I'm done with that issue, unless you want to do that thing that annoyed me again.

But, I also understand that this DOES NOT resolve issues for the W. I can not resolve now, for example, that she could not be a SAHM. She would have liked to be. Heck, I would have liked that. But we had to work. And now that the kid is 14, he doesn't really care if we are around as long as we bring him pizza... So, how do you resolve that?

Or, W wanted to move out of state before kid was 4. We talked about it twice in one week. ANd we didn't really investigate it, she didn't send resumes, follow up, etc. I liked it here. I had a good job, (both of us can work anywhere) and there could be other opportunities. But it's MY FAULT that we stayed. So how do you resolve that?

So, SR, you need to reexamine what you are asking. Recovery is hard, and takes many forms. What do you think would be the perfect recovery plan? And do you think MessedUp would buy into that? And do we ask in the recovery plan things that could not be addressed anyway? And you may be right about all this. And maybe I can use you like a sounding board for me.

Thanks again for writing LG! I especially appreciate your insight because, from what you say here, you and Messdup are really similar. Your comments help me see his side of things.



I’m guilty of this when I have questions about things that don’t sit right with me. For example, I hammered Messdup about a certain girl from college (17 years ago) for our entire marriage. I kept bringing her up, over and over. He kept telling me to drop it because she had nothing to do with anything. Turns out- she was actually very important because he had an affair with her! He just confessed a few months ago. Now that I know the truth, I no longer bring her up. So, to answer your question, I do keep raising issues that I think are unresolved. I am a problem-solver by nature and keep turning things over in my mind until I “fix” them. This really annoys my husband because he sees it as punishment. I’m not trying to punish him; I’m trying to bring us closer in the long run. But facing these issues is difficult.



I’m guilty of that too. Same thing happened in our marriage, and every so often I’ll pull that out and slap Messdup with it. That is NOT helpful. I’m trying to stop doing that. But, LG, I’ll tell you the reason I do it (if it helps you to know). I want to remind Messdup that I sacrificed something for him. As if he “owes me”. That is immature and I’m trying to stop. What I’m really looking for is a concrete example of how much he loves me. When I feel secure in his love, I don’t pull out that weapon. Does that help explain it? I'm not looking for resolution, I'm looking for reassurance that he loves me as much as I love him.


That is really good advice. I’m going to think about this some more and come back to it.



Yes, please do! We might be able to help each other. I know you already helped me. Thanks again LG
~Saturn

SR:

Two things about your post.

In the first paragraph, you justify your badgering about the girl from college, "proving" that he had a "A" prior to your marriage. And if you hadn't Badgered you would have never found out. (I have read the entire thread)
And in the second paragraph, you note that you "sacrificed" something to prove your love to MessedUp.

I am surprised by the contrast of this. I am interested in your sacrifice, my W has used that term when we are in an argument about such issues.

That perspective is very valuable for me, something to think about and I will muse this through right now....

So its turnabout time.

What if Messedup came to you and said that he "sacrificed" his life by choosing you over the college girl. How much better life would have been, instead, he choose you. And every time there was stress in your M, he brought this up. It would be a very powerful tool for shutting you down, wouldn't it? Because that wouldn't be "proving" his love for you, would it?

My W never really did the work to move, she never "sacrificed" anything. It would have been one thing if she had sent a resume, gotten a positive response, looked into houses in the other area, had discussions with me and explored all the options before I said no. Nothing like that happened. Could I have been more supportive? Perhaps. Expressed my feelings better? Yes. But I did not know about Harley then. And the discussions we had were civil. We were not yelling or screaming.

So, we can never resolve this. And I can't see how it "proves" her love for me. But it can shut me down big time.

And then it moves to this:



Aren't we all? Which one do you want?

Tom Cruise in Jerry Maguire saying: "You Complete Me"
Just completly reading the Book, After the Affair?
Taking a bullet for you?
H NOT taking the promotion at work so you could still have the rose bushes in front of your house?

Give me your example.

"Proving" your love is very difficult to do. I try my best every day. I show affection, concern, touching, and trying to understand her point of view. Try not to make W unhappy with my actions, and show her support all along the way?

But when you come to the fork in the road, who makes the decision? H or W? or Both? In the past, she feels that it was always me making the decisions, to suit me, not her. But she only remembers the ones I made, not the ones SHE Made. And she made alot. (We are not talking about independent behaviors here, I had those, but not in this regard) Because she made it, we must have agreed to it. And since I made the decision, and she didn't argue enough, or had her misgivings, even years later, it must be a sacrifice, on her part. Although with the MB principles, we are much better at this...

Yes, my musings are all over the place. I hope you understand. You kicked over a rock for both of us. Maybe we can get better for our spouses after this... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

SR:

Wow reading your post about asking about the girl in the past and being unable to resolve it till you had the truth so rings true for me also. Though I have to ask at what price are we willing to get this information? And is it a need to be right? I have had to recently ask myself these very questions and I'm not sure about the answer. Other than am I the selfish one for pushing for the answer. Hmmmm. It's amazing though after I know the truth that it can all go away.

I also understand what you are saying about the wanting to know that you are loved. That is how woman are wired we are wired to want to be loved and to love. Men however are not wired automatically with loving. It is interesting that in the Bible Women are comanded to respect their husbands and husband are comanded to love their wives. Why would this be? Because to women we love so easily, however respecting is a different story. And to men well they can respect but to love is something much harder.

And how can we define to our husbands so that they can understand as to what show's their love for us.

I understand where you are coming from, if only my fwh would finish reading that book he started, and so many other things that show me he loves me.


LG: Do you find that you feel your wife does not respect what you have done for her by bringing up things? Maybe she was wanting you to take the initiative to get the ball rolling on moving. Or maybe she was unsure if that was what she truly wanted. Or maybe she saw that you really didn't want to move therefor she shelved the idea to make you happy. I used to believe that I sacrificed alot to allow my h to follow his careeer. Believed this for years and was poor me. It wasn't until I truly listened to the how comes and the fact that he sacrificed alot also to ensure that we were financially taken care of. That is how he showed us his love. He felt financial security was much better than him being with us more. We both were focusing on self instead of focusing on what the other person was going through. Doesn't mean we haven't made huge mistakes. We just came to it in different ways.

Hope you guys don't mind some musings from me. I just so identified with what you were saying SR

LG, you ask excellent questions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I had formulated my response to your earlier post (re-examine what I am asking from my husband) and here you are with more questions, which make me think even deeper.

Yes this is very good. I like your willingness to probe. I think Messdup, when he gets a chance to read this, will say "Yeah!!" Thanks for helping us, and hopefully my responses will help you and your wife.



Good question. Since you read the whole thread, you probably noticed that I brought this up, but Messdup never has. It is my greatest fear that he did choose the wrong girl, and that I have doomed him to an unhappy life.

But I think you intend to make a different point. It is not sacrifice that demonstrates love. Because, since we have been at MB for a while, we know that sacrifice breeds resentment and resentment kills marriages.

So how to respond to this "shut down"? I guess the best thing is to recognize it for what it is. When your wife brings this up, she is scared. She's scared that you don't love her. That she has wasted her effort in the past. That she's worried her current efforts will not pay off in future happiness.

Which brings us to your most relevant question:



A concrete example that he loves me? There are two, in my recovery plan. The first is that he gives up close friendships with other women. The second is that he tells me when he's upset about "us". This would tell me that he feels comfortable enough with me to reveal his concerns. So far he prefers to act like everything's good. He prefers to avoid conflict, so I know this is very hard for him to do. If he does this, I will know that he's doing it because he loves me and wants us to be closer.



I predict my answer wasn't what you were looking for. But, you and I both realize, it does not help for one spouse to "win" in decision making. I used to think that first he gets his way and then I get my way, kind of like taking turns. But obviously now we realize that, when we get to that fork in the road, we need to find the win/win. Because otherwise the resentment kicks in. So- you know as well as I do LG- you BOTH make the decision.

Anyway, I really try hard to not make any more sacrifices!



Messdup could have written this! It's not enough for me. I want to know what's going on in his head. I want him to let me show MY support for HIM. I want him to need my help. Because then I'll know he looks to me when he's in pain, and trusts me to help him when he's vulnerable.

But if he keeps whistling "don't worry, be happy" I feel useless.

Does that make sense?

Hi bjs! Thanks so much for posting! You ask good questions too, and you also pointed out something that is important.



For me, it was actually a need to be sane. I honestly thought I was crazy. My mind would simply not let go of this girl, and for years I thought I had "lost it". I told myself that it was nothing and I should drop it, like Messdup requested, but I just couldn't. I really thought something was wrong with me... so when I found out the truth it was actually a relief to know that I could trust my instincts.



Yes. Just Learning and Man in Motion told me several months ago that they thought I didn't respect my husband. I denied this, and in my conscious mind I still deny it. But their statements nag at me and I wonder. I definitely am guilty of "disrespectful judgements". It is my most obvious lovebuster. I constantly have to remind myself that I have to stop assuming to know my husband's motivations behind his behavior.



We can help each other bjs! With LG's insight, eventually we will understand our men. I hope <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Saturn:

I know that you know that I just read this latest round of posting after being stuck in "trade show h-e-l-l" all week. I also know that you're hoping for a post from me before I go to bed, so here it is:



Please don't assume that I don't care or I don't love you because I'm not posting something profound at this time. My eyes are beginning to cross and I need to do something non-intellectual/non-emotional (like watch TV) right now. I'm beat. It has been a very draining week. However, I do appreciate your insight as well as LG's. Thank you. When I'm more coherent, I'll write more.

I love you...

MU

Wow do I know what you mean by this statement.



This is so where I have been, however nothing I did or did not do would change my fwh story. It's been a killer. Wow thanks for sharing that, thought I was the only one that went insane when something didn't feel right even though being told the opposite.

I have found that for my fwh respect is huge with him. Just saying the little thank you's and meaning it. Maybe try reading or get the cd "Love and Respect" there is the part for the guys and for the girls. I find my h listens to cd's much easier than reading and he can connect with what is being said easier. There is also two other books with some of the stuff I agree with called "For Women Only" "For Men Only" and they talk about some of the things that have been discussed here. Maybe the cd's would work better. I always thought I showed my fwh respect however I am learning a whole new way of showing him and meaning it.
LG is a great help. I think I frustrated him awhile back. But he gave me much to think about and some that I am still thinking about and watching for.

LG: Saturn is very right when she says that you and I are really similar. Right down to the lousy golfing part. Thank you for your insight. I believe Saturn is getting a better feel for what makes guys like us tick.

Dear Saturn:

I have spent most of this week feeling very angry. For a number of reasons though, not just one. It's not so much the fact that you're asking me to do my part in rebuilding our marriage. I welcome that. What I don't welcome is the lack of patience and hurtful statements (see below) when I tell you I've been busy, or I'm tired, or I'm drained. These are not excuses; these are facts. If I didn't do what needed to be done over the last several weeks, no one would have and I would have lost my job. I know you don't want that and I also know you wouldn't want me putting a plan for recovery together when I'm not in the right frame of mind. It wouldn't be well thought out or constructive. However, now that my trade show is out of the way, I will have much less on my mind and can devote more of my mind to the really important things in life. Like us.


Yes, perhaps you did. You said, "I feel obligated to spend time with you but I don't want to." It's statements like these that I receive periodically from you that cut very deeply. As a result, I withdrew from YOU this week so I could avoid some of that pain. I try to remain as "happy-go-lucky" as I can because it's the only way I can maintain my sanity. But sometimes it's just too difficult.

Well, you just got home, so I'd better go now. More later.

MU