Perhaps wiser heads than mine can help me with this.

I seem to have become the mother of an OW.

My daughter, now 20, went to university last year and had a successful first term. She came home at Christmas clearly distracted and excited, and it emerged that she was getting involved with a fellow student, who, I eventually learned, already had a girlfriend back in his home town.

I did The Talk, pointing out that it was not OK to get involved with someone who had commitments elsewhere, and she agreed. But naturally, when she went back to college, the romance escalated without the girlfriend ever quite being told.

And eventually my daughter realised that the boy’s relationship was not nearly as tenuous as the boy had suggested, that he had no intention of dumping his girlfriend, that he loved and missed this girl very much, and that my daughter was simply a means of avoiding loneliness while away from her.

This took months, though, during which my daughter clearly thought that she could still tempt him away from the GF. She is deeply In Love.

Since the start of the year, I have been answering the phone day after day to a hysterical daughter, incoherent with tears, sobbing about her agony of rejection and desire. Since she came back in the summer, I’ve spent literally hours listening to her…and I’ve found it really hard. First, she’s my daughter and she’s hurting. But second, she’s been some poor girl’s OW, and she KNEW she was sneaking, and she KNEW exactly how much heartbreak is caused because she’d seen me struggling through four years of recovery. She acknowledges this, but seems unable to break free of her desire for this boy.

She managed to fail most of her exams, and is now doing resits…but the boy is also back at university to retake his exams, and he’s living round the corner from her, and she is again hysterical with desire, hurt and jealousy.

I’ve found it hard to deal with this, largely because I’m torn. Half of me feels that she deserves everything she gets. I’m pretty repulsed by her lack of concern for the GF, especially considering what our family has been through. But on the other hand, this is my own daughter, and I’m sure other people would see this as just a standard college romantic tangle, perfectly normal. She is genuinely heart-broken and her life seems to have fallen to pieces. So I have listened, but I’ve also started to protect myself by limiting my listening time and by listening but saying little.

How should I handle this? Where do I place the boundaries? I feel so hard-hearted at the moment; I can’t be clear that I’m enforcing boundaries rather than punishing an OW.

I’m also not sure how much I’m being affected by the fact that there’s a wall of steel between the kids and H when it comes to personal emotional stuff – they won’t discuss anything personal with him, but save it all – every last thing – for me. Which is wearing me out, because I have no-one to talk to about it. H simply clams up if I mention DD’s sitch. I guess it hits too close to home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Together,

I may be alone on this point but I do not consider your daughter an OW. Rather she is a young girl swept up in a R with a young man that is teaching(inadvertently) your daughter some of the lessons of life and love.

I suspect that you are taking her life too personally secondary to the scenario you find yourself in.

Be a mom, talk to your daughter and offer her advice as to establishing her boundaries so that if the OW scenario ever truly presents itself, she will respect herself enough to walk away.

Best of luck

TA,

I am sorry for this addtional turmoil thrown your way. What I do is a young woman headed down the path of an OW and a mother deparately trying to pull her back.

She is at the door of the mothership. The OM already resides there. You can see her path and have been trying to call her back.

This may be an opportune time to let others help you. Sometimes children do well to hear it not just from your mother ('cuz remember like many kids say 'that just my mom talking'), but they can beenfit by having your words reinforced from other valid sources. Basically create a support group for her.

1. Get her into counseling
2. Talk with her friends. See if they can help.
3. Find someone who has been through this and let them help her.
4. Maybe a grandparent, her father, a neighbor, minister, etc....someone she respects.

5. Maybe even calling Steve or Jennifer.

Take the steps you need now. She is already at the wrong door.

JMHO,
L.

TA, I have been through this with my DD and my DS. My DS was cheated on by the love of his life at 22 and my DD got involved with a young man who had no intention whatsover of forming a proper relationship with her (they were both single). I, too, had the hysterical phonecalls.

BTW, Cymanca I disagree with you completely that she is not an OW. Unfortunately, she is. I was MARRIED at 20. If I had cheated then would you have put it down to "youth".

She needs to get out of this relationship and, TA, you really do need to point out to her that this young man is NOT free and point it out to her quite forcibly. Ask her how she'd feel if she was the girlfriend in the dark.

A very good book is "He's just not that into you." It's exceptionally good for all ages but particularly good for young women.

Oh and don't let her go dark with you. My DD said having me there as a comforting ear was the only thing that kept her going.

I found the sitch extremely exhausting as well because my DD sounded so much like a WS during the whole thing. It, too, was very close to home as she sounded so much like me in the fog.

TA, just be a mother to her. Look after her as a daughter but keep reiterating that he is NOT free.

I’m responding without reading any of the other posts as it seem there can only be one right truth.

Some might say that because this is a boyfriend girlfriend situation and not a legal marriage that all bets are off and everyone is free game. I am not one of those.

University students are not boys and girls any longer, they are men and women. They have much to learn in the way of life and love, that is for certain, nevertheless they cannot be relieved from behaving ethically, fairly and with integrity.

Your daughter’s man is already committed in a relationship. It appears from the description that that relationship has evolved into something much deeper long before your daughter ever arrived on the scene. You of all people will understand how this woman will feel once she finds out that her boyfriend has cheated on her with your daughter. Worse, it sounds from your position that you are enabling her. Why on earth would you want your daughter to be with this person? You say that your daughter is deeply in love with him. I think, no I mean, I know that you are smarter then this. Would you describe this love as “true love” or perhaps “soul mate love”? Will your daughter be posting on TOW? Please think about what is happening here and what you can do as a mother.

Would not the appropriate response be for your daughter to tell this man, “Give me a call, AFTER you dumped her, otherwise I’m unavailable.”

You have a unique and rare opportunity to pass on something quite valuable to your daughter and you are sitting on the sidelines like a church mouse.

“Oh mom I love him so, so much. Whatever will I do?”

You can start off by telling her to start acting like a woman and not a little girl. Does she not know right from wrong? Help her to make the right decision. There is only ONE right choice. Who will tell her if you don't? This is a defining moment.

Of course I am just a male, what do I know about cheating, affairs and betrayals? They don't hurt so much after a couple of years.

Mr. G

TA,

I can see why this would upset you. Despite the fact that this boy is not married, his commitment to the his girlfriend....puts your daughter in the role of the other woman. It may just be "practice" for a situation with even more tragic consequences....but the dynamics are exactly the same and it's the kind of pattern, you sure don't want her to repeat.

It's doubly hard for you to help her because your own feelings of betrayal are getting mixed up with her situation, so it may be hard for you to be as compassionate as you usually would while your hurt is still so fresh. Do you think she'd be willing to talk to someone like Orchid or maybe Pep? (if they're willing too of course)?

The other really big worry that I'm seeing is your daughter's complete lackeof coping skills. This is not the first tragedy she's likely to encounter and I agree with folks who think some counseling might be in order. She may even need some anti-depressants so that she doesn't continue to waste her life and education on a boy who doesn't love her.

Anybody know how to contact the girlfriend? Maybe that might be the next step to take. I wonder if she is aware of what's going on at college.

Have you considered letting your daughter come home, go to a community college for a year and just get the heck away from this guy? Separation from this boy could be a really good thing to help ground her. You can't make her of course....but when my son's life was out of control....and he was letting his emotional immaturity ruin his education....I told him he was obviously not ready to live away from home. If you're paying for her education....or helping her financially....you've got some good leverage.

Tell her to "stop crying, and realize that she's a very lucky girl....because she is learning this lesson at a time when the consequences are not nearly as tragic as they can be. Lucky to still be young enough to find someone else. Lucky to know what this boy is REALLY when she can walk away from him. Lucky that SHE isn't the committed girlfriend whose being cheated on....because that's what's next. When she gives her heart to boy/man who is already committed to someone else....she'll never get more than crumbs and heartbreak. She's lucky that he doesn't love her because it's a toxic kind of love."

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Cymanca, I do feel troubled about the fact that she's a young woman, learning a difficult lesson. Thing is, at 20 (nearly 21), I feel she's old enough to know what she's doing. She was 16 when her dad's affair (the one she knows about) was exposed, and she'd met the OW when H brought her to our house. She has often expressed her utter loathing of this woman. She knows quite well what an OW is and what it feels like to be on the betrayed side. On top of that, I remember well that in my first job, I fell heavily for a young man who was working far from home on an assignment. After 18 months, he revealed the fact that he had a long-term GF back home, and that in fact they'd just got engaged. He told me only because I'd got myself a job in London where he lived. As soon as I realised what was happening, I refused to have anything more to do with him. He pursued me for months - he wanted me as well as the fiancee - until eventually I moved home without leaving a forwarding address and severed connection with all our mutual friends. I remember the heartache and the loneliness, but it had to be done. I was 22.

Orchid, I've encouraged her to the University counselling service when term restarts. Actually, DD seems genuinely shocked that she's done this, she recognises that the current suffering is largely because of that misstep - she's adamant that she'll never do it again....with any other guy. But she is still deeply in the Fog over this one, and the words that come from her mouth are pure OW Fogese ('...we were so right together, he should have chosen me, why can't he just be honest with her and come back to me, she's just holding onto him...'), interspersed with moments of clarity when she is appalled at herself. I'm dubious about the 'good' influence of friends because it seems to have been her college housemates who encouraged her into the romance (on a ticket of 'get rid of the girlfriend!') in the first place. I assume they haven't been affected by cheating and see it as romantic - but my DD should have known better because of her own history. My DS has been the most vocal - telling her in no uncertain terms that he's ashamed of her behaviour. Grandparents? H's father is the most emotionally avoidant man I've ever met - when my MIL died recently, he refused to go to her funeral, on the basis that 'it might be upsetting'. My own mother would offer much advice centered around dressing sexy and playing hard to get; she sees relationships as a kind of wargame where men must be outsmarted and then despised. She would see it as a challenge rather than an issue of morality!

KiwiJ, she is pretty much out of the relationship - basically because the boy has stayed with his GF and made clear that that's his priority. That's her whole problem - the pain of not being with him. And that's my problem, because I have to listen to a endless streams of self-pity and pain which could easily come from any of H's 4 PAs or 2 EAs, and if she were not my daughter I would crisply terminate the conversation and make sure I never had to listen to that again, but because she's my daughter I can't do that, and it feels like torture to have to listen to the pain and anger and self-pity of a WS, and not slap her silly

Yes, I've Amazoned her books like He's not that into you, and How to break your addiction to a person...and she agrees with it, and she still can't break the addiction. It's been eight, nine months now.

Is it OK to say to your own daughter..."I'm going to hang up now. I can't stand listening to you any more; it's tearing me apart.' Are mothers allowed to do that?

TA

Praytell, can anyone tell me the definition of dating v. "vows before marriage" that everyone seems to attach to the above stated relationship.

I would be willing to bet that NOT ONE person on this board did not date someone that was not involved with somebody else at some time or other.

So please enlighten me......what is the difference between dating and vows, if there is any in your world.

Cheating is cheating is cheating whether you're married or single.

No, most people do NOT date people who are involved with other people. People who did that sort of thing at HS or college very soon got a reputation for themselves as people not to trust. Most people know by the age of 13 that you don't move in on someone else's g/f or b/f.

These relationships may not be "legal" relationships but you tell that to the young students we see, some of them almost suicidal when this sort of thing happens to them. You tell them that it "doesn't matter" because they're only young and hey, they're not married or anything.

Kiwi,

So there is no dating, just committed relationships??

Whew I guess the nuns taught that lesson on one of my sick days

Cym,

It's the difference between making a dating commitment to one person, or just giving a few guys a "try out".....exclusivity vs casual. When I was young....we called an exclusive dating relationship "going steady"...you committed to only date each other...and no one else until such time that you decided you were "wrong" for each other or wanted to date others, or you decided to take the next step and get engaged to marry. Dating is an open rather than "exclusive" relationship. I didn't date guys who were committed or "going steady" with another girl in high school or college. I didn't like general dating very much period.....I usually dated a few guys until I found someone I liked in particular and then we moved into an exclusive relationship that lasted a long time.....usually several years. During that time, I didn't date anyone else....and they promised the same thing to me. I broke up with them if I became interested in dating someone new.....they did the same thing for me. It was still heartbreaking....but at least we usually still liked each other after the break up....it's hard enough to deal with the emotions of splitting....dealing with betrayal adds whole new level of misery.

Yes, what Star said.

Star,

Sorry, guess I missed the "going steady" emphasis on Together's initial post.

Cym,

You didn't miss it....I don't think it was there. It's unclear about whether the guy and his gf have an "exclusive" relationship or if the gf knows he's dating other TA's daughter while she dates other people at her college. If he's just in love with this other girl, but they've both agreed to date others for a while....well TA's daughter is just opening herself up to heartbreak because he's probably just using her to pass the time. If the gf doesn't know about TA's daughter....then she's part of deception and betrayal...and even worse place to be....but neither situation is probably too healthy.

But exactly what is the relationship with the girlfriend TA? Afterall, in college is the time to date lots of people and find the person you want to stay with.

Kiwi,

I tended to date one person at a time....but lots people I knew didn't....especially the young men. Lots of guys wanted to "play the field"....not get serious or enter an exclusive relationship with one girl until they were ready to settle down. I knew people who dated each other for a long time....but not exclusively and still dated other people....and THEN got engaged and committed only to each other at that point. You can date more than one person without "cheating" as long as there's "honesty". Marriage is obviously "exclusive" but dating can be exclusive or not.

Star, I understand that. It's the "exclusive" v "casual" that makes the difference. Some young couples break up before college as they know how difficult it will be.

Anyway, TA's DD has a broken heart for whatever reason. TA, unfortunately, she's just going to have to be like all the rest of us as young people and take the time to get over it. I also think counselling and/or ADs would help her.

Too many variables here TA for me to have even a solid opinion that your DD *is* an OW.

Is there dishonesty involved?

Was the relationship exclusive or not?

Those questions sort of suggest an affair *dynamic* as a possibility..but what troubles me is your DDs obvious OVERINVESTMENT in a dating relationship.

Has she struggled with boundary issues in the past and have you addressed this with her?

Does she *have* some sort of mood disorder?

Her reactions seem very..VERY extreme and I have to wonder what is fueling them?

I see two issues..and they seem to be on about equal ground in your descriptions..the first being that she misses him..and the second being that she is having trouble dealing with rejection..she lost..he chose someone else.

Is your DD competative by nature? How does she react to failures or perceived failures in other areas of life?

Is entitlement an element? Does she feel entitled to have her preferences?

Your descriptions paint your DD as being on the underdeveloped side maturity wise..I might expect this sort of reaction from a YOUNG teen but in a young WOMAN..it's a little shocking. Especially if it has lasted a period of months.

Is there more to the story than this?

That's a great summation noodle.....I was thinking exactly along the same lines. College students often have non-exclusive long distance relationships even when they are in love with the other person....because it's not very practical unless they're ready to get married. It's sound alot like TA's daughter wants this guy to commit to HER and he can't. Unless there's dishonesty involved....she's not necessarily the "OW"....just the one who wasn't chosen. And her reaction.....is not healthy.

next in line to agree with Star's agreeing with Noodle

personally ... to me ... this is NOT an affair ... it's an unstable/dynamic/evolving relationship triangle....

marriage is a committment
engaged is a promise of a future committment

anything else is whatever it is ... but it is NOT committed in MY opinion

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />