... I completely agree with LowOrbit...

I completely disagree with MEDC ~~~> there is nothing morally wrong with your position Low... you are entitled to your opinion which you stated very respectfully.
Pep

Well, that is why they make chocolate and vanilla. I am just happy that there are a lot of people out there that respect the sanctity of their word... even if there is no ring on a finger. A piece of paper should not, IMHO, be the determining factor in respecting a relationship.

Hopefully, any of you with children will not have to deal with this situation. But I really think that if a steady committed partner cheats on your child... that you don't view their partner is doing any more than just having fun. Please don't view it at your child's expense or think ill of the partner. Invite him back in your home even after he has broken your childs heart... let him know that you approve of that type of behavior and see nothing wrong with it.

For me, it would be a difficult pill to swallow given the facts of this situation. If TA had said they were casually dating... that is another story... but that was not the case. So, I will agree to disagree and tell you that I feel your thoughts on this are a bit askew.



That you find this respectful is very surprising. Heck... using this mentality... verey fiancee out there is fair game in LO eyes. They have yet to say I do. That could make for some very fun bachelor parties!

I am 100% not emotional about this topic MEDC. So, my opinion is based on what I think & what I have learned from my reading/experience.

I am not argueing that a broken heart is NOT a broken heart ... what I am saying is

marriage is holy ground

for me

entirely different than dating/living together/engaged even !

Pep

agreed

Pep, I have a personal question for you if you don’t mind. You said you’ve learned from your experience, so my question is:

Did you behave dishonest and unfaithful with boyfriends you had steady/exclusive relationships with before marriage?

mk,

Marriage is holy ground to me too and different from dating or even engagement....however, dating relationships that include living together and having children....are considered "married" by me because they are not just dating partners, they are parents....and that's holy too.

I was in a long term (14-year) relationship that I thought was the "same as" and/or "as good as" and/or "as committed as" .... marriage.

14 years!

I was wrong ... it is not same as as

or

good as
or

as committed as .... marriage.

What we had was a long term Renter/Renter agreement .... not a Buyer/Buyer agreement.

NOT holy ground ... at all ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I thought those things before I had a religious/spiritual conversion.

I was faithful to him for about 10 years (if memory serves ... so these are estimate years) ... then, we mutually decided to have an "open relationship" ~~~> disaster .... the 70's were hard on me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I honestly don't think my daughter is in any confusion about infidelity; in fact I think she is more disgusted with her own behaviour than anyone. She's baffled by the strength of the feelings that have caused her to behave in out-of-character, self-disrespecting ways. She's always been very controlled and cautious about relationships - she's had one serious boyfriend before this - so this is utterly out of character behaviour. It's the feelings that are pulling her out of orbit, and she's scared at how little she can control them.



TruBluz, this is a good point. I'm not sure how much guilt is playing a part in this. When I look past the drama queen front, I see a 16 year-old girl who was dragged into her father's sordid secret in the middle of her GCSEs, has never had an apology for that, got dumped by her only boyfriend just before her A-levels, has put up a tough front and has at times collapsed under the strain. In this current relationship, I see an insecure young woman, rather scared of boys, who melted when pursued ardently by a hot guy, who felt wanted and special, and who desperately wants that feeling back. I see someone who has had a crummy deal, and I feel bad because I'm her mother and providing a secure platform for my kids has been my driving force since the moment I knew I was pregnant.

If I don't talk to her, the only other sources she has available are the ones that helped her into this mess. So I feel I have to. Do I?

And that brings me to the point that is beginning to emerge out of the mist...

Where the h*ll is H in all this?

He has been very supportive...about DD's practical arrangements, money, coursework (it's the same subject as his)...but the big issue that has screwed up her year has been completely avoided as a subject. The fact that she's failed her exams and run up huge debt...is acknowledged without any enquiry as to why things have gone wrong. He knows, because I tell him, but he wouldn't dream of talking to her about it.

I say: I'm drained. She's been crying for an hour
He says: It's good she feels she can talk to you. Nobody talked to anyone in my family.

I say: I don't think I can take much more of this.
He says: Mothers and daughters...always like this...chemistry. It's good she feels she can talk to you.

I say: I wish you would talk to her.
He says: But you're her mother...it's good she feels she can talk to you.

I say: I think you might be able to help her better than me. It's really tough to hear what she says - reminds me of bad things about your As.
He says: ............it's good she feels she can talk to you.

Is it unreasonable to expect her father to involve himself in this?

TA

PS MEDC

I am not trying to change your mind ~at all~

I am supportive of Low's position ... because I believe marriage is the topic of these boards ... not long-term dating.

I want to support the position that her daughter is NOT an OW ... and ought not be treated like one!

a foolish girl ?.... YES!

an OW ? .... NO !

Pep

[color:"red"] Is it unreasonable to expect her father to involve himself in this?
[/color]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> closed mouth gathers no foot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nonexclusive does not mean dishonest Suzet.

Dishonesty is an entirely separate issue from refusal of exclusivity and IMO what lends this scenario it's affair element.

The fact that TAs DD was shoved out the BACK door while "legit" girlfriend was coming in the front tells me what I need to know but has nothing whatsoever to do with dating more than one person at a time.

This "couple" is not married and I don't extend the same protocal or sanctity..yes even right up to the alter..because married means married and not means not.

There can be issues of integrity and I certainly think that there are..this fellow is a WS in the making as surely as TAs DD is reading her OW lines verbatim..they both demonstrate poor judgement..boundary failure..foggy values..poor character..and immaturity..so I'm really GLAD that none of them are married..........yet and hope that they resolve THESE issues before that particular question rears it's head.

TA..I would suggest that you allow the consequences to hit her in the butt..her failed classes should not be paid for by you [she's pretty cavalier about blowing off her studies at your expense] and you probably ARE feeding her dramatic fire by participating in her wallow.

You can help her become motivated to make decisions in agreement with the adult status she is claiming [with regard to freedom] by helpfully allowing her to clean up her own mess.

No time to pine when you have bills to pay and your next semester is going to be REIMBURSED rather than fronted..I would say 100% reimbersement for excellent results..50 for mediocre..zero for poor or continued failure.

I would also tell her that while you love her very much..you are disappointed by her choices at this time and will not be supporting them.

I would tell her that you are hurt by her lack of empathy for YOU as the betrayed party and her quick willingess to BELIEVE for her own gratification the same lies that you have been slandered with.

Tell her that your love for her is unconditional..but your friendship and relationship with her is not.

She is an adult..and adults deal with real consequences..if she chooses to be a woman of low character..let her live out those choices and feel the sting.

I second Peps book suggestion of buyers, renter, freeloaders..and would also suggest a book about PERSONAL integrity as well rather than marital faithfullness which is..obviously..uncharted territory and she as a never married young woman may not be able to distinguish between her FEELINGS of attachment and the REALITIES of committment.

[color:"red"] Tell her that your love for her is unconditional..but your friendship and relationship with her is not.

[/color]

.... since I might need this MYSELF in the future ... I'm puting this one in the vault ...

parenting <~~~ NOT for sissies!

pep

Hmmm, perhaps I should change the title of this thread, to remove the sensationalist 'OW'.

I think my daughter is an OW-lite. She was attracted to someone very young who was not married, had no children or other commitments, and who lied to her about being emotionally available. By the time she sussed the lie, she was already heavily committed emotionally, and now she's having a tough time with the fallout.

I think she got into what she thought was a 'fair game' situation, because she was lied to and because she didn't ask the right questions. I don't think she betrayed her own standards at the outset; she did later when she was emotionally hooked. She has to deal with that one herself.

The fallout has been very painful for her; she's not someone who spills her inner pain with anyone beyond me and her oldest (girl) friend. And, as girls do when brokenhearted, she calls her Mum looking for comfort and support and some chastisement and a pep-talk. I don't think that's unusual or unreasonable. If I hadn't been cheated on, I would deal with this firmly and kindly, as I have done with all the other big crises in her life. It's only the painful circumstances of my own life that make this situation hard to cope with. I think she does still need to talk to someone about her turmoil, but I don't think it can be me for much longer.

She does have two parents. Why am I doing all the heavy lifting here?

TA

Hmmmmmm.

Thinks.

TA,

One of the great things about growing up, maturing, and YES even making mistakes....is the opportunity to learn things when the consequences are <relatively> smaller than later in our lives. Dating is practice for the real commitment of marriage....but it isn't marriage. People who are bad boyfriends or girlfriends are likely to make bad husbands and wives....no argument. People who cheat on their dating partners....will likely cheat on their husbands or wives. The time for your daughter to learn this is before she breaks up a marriage or a family.....are now when the stakes lower. Look at her suffering as a positive thing.....something she needs to experience. Present it to her as an opportunity to grow. If she had learned this lesson when her father was cheating....if she had learned by watching your pain and anguish....she wouldn't need to learn this now would she? She didn't....but I hope....that her own experience will affect her in a way that being an objective observer never could.


Again.....good. That shows conscience and a clear sense of right and wrong. Help her hate the action and not hate herself because self hate is one of the things that's fueling her continued self destruction.


And she should be. She is learning what she needs to learn, WHEN she needs to learn it.....before marriage. Her recovery may be slow, because learning can be tedious....but help her recognize that her misery has a purpose....and that purpose is to recommit to HERSELF and the kind of person she wants to be. Right now.....she may feel as though there is no redemption for her and no way to be happy again, and I personally think she's looking to YOU for punishment, not help. Stop punishing her for your own feelings....and help her use her pain to LEARN.

One of the biggest challenges that betrayed spouses must face (or even betrayed parents like medc) is that we tend to superimpose our pain on the other situations that cross our paths. We see the similarities and place great weight on those....and we ignore the differences. We internalize what is happening because it triggers our own feelings of betrayal, loss and rejection. Your daughter watched what happened to you....but she didn't experience it in the same way. She's learning that now....and I think that it's possible some good can come out of this before she finds herself in a situation where she can't control her feelings for someone who is not only unattainable...but married or a father.


It this case....you need to take off your betrayed spouse hat, and put on your mom hat. Separate your disgust for the OWs in your life, and your daughter who fell for a hot guy in college who had romantic commitments to some other girl. They aren't the same thing. The relationship has the same dynamics and there are other parallels....but there are big differences too. This IS the kind of mistake....that if she learns from it....can make her life better and make her next choice of a boyfriend...better. You can help her do that....or you can get stuck in looking at the parallels to your situation and feel triggered and angry.


I won't tell you what you "have" to do....because clearly if you're incapable of separating your own issues from hers....you won't be much help. But if you can't....then help her to find another source....LIKE COUNSELING. Help her make an appt. Encourage her to talk to some of your friends in real life or maybe even here.


If you truly want your husband involved....then be more direct. No more "I wish you would....." or "you think you might be able to....." Try: "H, I need your help. Your daughter needs your help, in ADDITION to mine. She is doing poorly and I'm very worried about her. A MAN's perspective may be the key. What are you willing to do?"

"OW-lite"

An Other Woman without the carbs...

Mr. G

I do have children...and we've talked extensively about what "commitment" means. Until they say "we're going to be exclusive" then, there is no infidelity. Even then, I couldn't fault a man for pursuing my daughter...she's very beautiful. Unless married, it would be incumbent on her to tell him that she's not interested.



We completely disagree about this. I happen to believe YOU are wrong...but we're both entitled to our opinions, aren't we?



How can it be anything other?



No...I'm a realist...and a competitor...

Why should I cross an interesting woman off simply because some other guy want to date her? I say let her make a choice.

I DO respect REAL marriages, btw...and by Real, I mean those folks who've express vows of permanence and exclusivity, including engagements and betrothals.

I would call those situations "marriage lite"...I wouldn't want to be involved simply becaseu I want no part of that drama.

Still...a competitive man or woman is going to question, and maybe even challenge the depth of commitment in such relationships.

Despite the cohab and kids...it still ain't marriage.

Orbit, does that mean that you would respect the relationship of an unmarried woman (extreamly attractive) if she and her boyfriend made a vow of exclusivity towards each other?

Mr. G

Lo....the problem is not whether "cohab with kids" is the SAME as marriage...my point is that cheating would also affect the children as innocent bystanders and that sure creates a more destructive dynamic than just competing with a rival. I hope even a competitive person would consider that relationship off limits. There are lots of people out there that don't honor the sanctity of even marriage....so I have no delusions that people who want an attractive person, and don't mind splitting up a unmarried mom and dad raising kids may go in anyway. But I personally would consider that far more serious than a stealing somebody's "steady".