Such men and women often test the depth of commitment in ANY relationship often times at the expense of everyone but themselves.

“Listen Honey, I was just admiring how really great you look. Has anyone told you that lately? Anyways, I wanted you to know that if you decide to, you know, end things with your husband, I would really like to show you around. Just give me a call, here is my phone number, 1-800-LETSFK.”

Hey, I’m comfortable with that. Everything is SO clear now. After all, let her make the choice.

Where did this bead of sweat on my forehead come from.

Mr. G

FWIW, Dr H appears to agree with Low:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5068a_qa.html

Note particularly:

“My standard advice to singles is to date at least 30 people before marriage. Strange advice to some, because, like you, they may have already chosen the one they wanted to marry. But the reason I give that advice is so they come to understand what they need most in an opposite sex relationship. The ones that they find most attractive are those who meet some of their most important emotional needs.

But dating does more than help you identify your emotional needs. It also teaches you what needs you can meet for others with relative ease. In other words, in dating you learn who is skilled in meeting your needs, and you learn how skilled you are in meeting certain needs of others. “

I like Pep’s advice to giver her The One. Much better for her at this time in her life than an infidelity book. Your advice, TA, is so skewed by marital infidelity you may not be lending her the ear she really needs.

IMO, it’s to do with ethics, even in simply dating.

ed: I wish I had dated more before marrying FWW. I think I would have been able to avoid this whole long sitch, actually.

Very well put, noodle

Yes, I would...but I would expect her to inform me of such a condition...

TA:

My kids are just barely entering dating age, so I haven't crossed this bridge yet. But I don't know that I would have the skills/objectivity to deal with this situation. I think I would definitely call in a professional.

Your daughter has not just entered into a bad dating relationship, she's allowed her "feelings" to overwhelm her to such a degree that she has failed at her primary task -- her education.

That, to me, indicates that she needs some serious intervention. I don't know if that means she's needs what Noodle suggests, a good dose of parental 2x4s and reality checking, or what. But I don't think this is a pattern you want to encourage -- allowing her feelings to overwhelm her commitments and her obligations.

At the least, I wouldn't send her back to school this fall without an absolutely clear understanding that if she does not meet a certain GPA, you will not pay for the spring term. And I would require that she enter into weekly therapy with someone you approve of.

I think she needs some objective help here, beyond parental compassion. She needs to learn some coping skills and a think a greater sense of responsibility for her own actions, both personally (the dating thing) and professionally (her studies.)

This can be a great learning opportunity for her to look inside herself and become the kind of woman she wants to be. Her father's affair sounds as though it was very traumatic for her. A good IC would probably be very helpful to her on a myriad of levels.

Tru

yep yep yep Tru!!

((( TA )))

[color:"red"] Why am I doing all the heavy lifting here?[/color]

because you are taking responsibility for her issues ...

just like a mother does

and one of the difficult choices you can make is to

let her go & suffer her consequences ...

you have the option of ~just listening~ while you offer no advice!

the heavy lifting is HERS ... not yours and not your husbands

Pep

Ya know, Goodstuff...I think I made it pretty clear that that I was talking about UNMARRIED women...

Are you one of those folks who can't diffentiate between them?

I don't know how this turned into an attack of LowOrbit ...

Low, your position is similar to mine .... so if there is any attacking to be done, I'll take a part of it as well!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

pep

I must say that I am shocked at some of the views I am seeing expressed on this thread.

We have people agrreing with a man that says that even when he knows there is a committed relationship that it is okay to try and get together with the woman. We have that same person saying it doesn't even matter if there are children involved....

You know... it is time for me to take leave of this thread.

TA... I think you are doing a great job with your daughter. Don't count on your H... you are strong enough for this.

Married women or comitted relationships:

I think the difference between the two are closer then is comfortable to admit.

It is not YOU that I question Mr. Orbit, it is the idea that this type of behavior has ANY inncocence at all.

Mr. G

I see the difference between a married person and a single..SINGLE yet dating with exclusivity [I don't even mock the word committment when dealing with a dating scenario by using it] as this...

As a married woman..I EXPECT that people will respect my vows and maintain a distance demonstrating that respect. Those who do not will likely have to buff my footprints off their behind.

As a SINGLE woman who was EMOTIONALLY unavailable it was up to *me* and only *me* to make that position a known in the dating equation.

If I wasn't interested I didn't play ball..I wasn't available..period because I was invested elsewhere..or not.

Yet I would not fault a man or woman who expressed an interest or asked if I'd like to go out with them.

As long as everyone is on the same page and things are above board then I really don't know what the possible objections would be..because obviously we can't MAKE people be committed to us..and we really should know better if they straight up TELL us that they aren't.

It's the deceit that makes for the betrayal...allowing a person to believe that the relationship is something other than their actions and intentions mold it to be.

People step over boundaries all of the time..and I personally would regard a man or woman who was living with someone..or had children out of wedlock..or existed in some sort of quasimarried but not situation as someone who was *already* stepping across the lines while blurring them..so what rules in those cases count and which are discarded and how is a passerbye to know?

The facts of this situation are... nothing was above board. Not one thing.

It is one thing for a person to unknowingly hit on a person in a committed relationship... no one here has any issue with that. The issue arises when a person KNOWS there is a relationship that is exclusive and still feels entitled to stick their friggin nose in there. This situation is not one where he decided to date TA's daughter and then left his GF... no problem with that... this is a situation where the GF was in the dark and TA's daughter was part of the deception. To me this is nothing more than the minor leagues for cheaters. I would venture a guess that the vast majority of H & W's that have problems keeping promises to their parteners before M will inevitably have that same problem afetr the VOWS are taken.

I have been married and cheated on... and I have been cheated on by my sons mom that I asked to marry me... the second one hurt a lot worse. We had a committment... and in the eyes of you people here, she nor her f-toy did anything wrong.

Absolutely indefensible positions.

medc,

Is that really what folks here are saying? Folks like pep and noodle? *eek* And Low is a BS spouse too who has been through complete h#ll with his WS. Or are they saying that dishonesty and cheating in a triangular dating relationship is yucky, but doesn't qualify as "adultery". Just because some folks are not putting TA's daughter at "homewrecker" status....doesn't mean they agree with what she did.

Ya know....WS have a "fantasy filter", but sometimes we BSs have a "betrayal filter". Both of them filter the information we get and skew it just a bit and create our own biases on stuff. I agree with you that it was dishonest and shows poor judgement to be involved knowingly with someone else's boyfriend. It's stupid and self destructive too. It CAN be practice for the "majors"....OR....maybe it's an opportunity to learn a hard lesson about what betrayal really feels like at a time when no body is married yet. We can't give everything (dating, living together) the same rules or status of marriage....or marriage wouldn't be as special as it supposed to be.

Lest anyone confuse this mash with what I actually said, I'll restate my position succinctly:

1) If people are MARRIED, that demonstrates a truly committed relationship. They are clearly off the market.
2) If people are ENGAGED, that demonstrates a promise of marriage and they are clearly off the market.
3) If they have PROMISED exclusivity to each other, it is incumbent on them to maintain that...no one outside the relationship is honor bound to do otherwise. It would not be wrong for an unattached person to try and win their affections.
4) If they are none of the above, then I question their commitment to each other until they say otherwise. I wouldn't consider it infidelity to try and win their affections.
5) If children are involved in any way, shape or form, their welfare and stability comes first. Star makes a good point.

DATING is an inherently competitive environment.

Actually MEDC..I think it may very well have BEGUN above board..at least as far as TAs DD is concerned.

We don't actually know..what..if anything his other GF knew about her or the dating status..that is an undeclared sum in this equation unless I have misread or just plain missed something.

What we DO know is that at some point..unfortunately AFTER DD was invested..probably heavily invested..in fact I would put money on it that she was having sex with him..the known facts changed.

She made the wrong choice in continuing the relationship [actually I would say she made the wrong choice at several points and in doing such she made herself vulnerable to the very heartbreak she is now experiencing]..when she implicitly agreed to sneak and conceal and go behind the chosen GFs back..essentially be his unpaid booty call..THAT is where the deceit and affair dynamic enterred the picture for her.

It wasn't her job imo to keep her nose out of anything..it was the job of the two individuals that comprise the "couple" to state the boundaries because honestly MEDC..where ARE the lines?

There is a BIG problem when marriage is interchangeable with dating and people fail utterly to distinguish between them.

Lying is "wrong", that is a MORAL stance.

Fornicating is also "wrong" by that same moral standard.

When you choose to operate outside of the boundaries..one of the consequences is that you lose the protection of them.

"Dating" is a temporary status..it will either result in MORE committment or dissolution..being overinvested WITHOUT that committment makes you vulnerable to a whole lot of pain and heartbreak in part because you ARE in essence trying to force the situation to be something that it isn't.

Married people have affairs.

People who are dating behave unethically and without integrity.

In both cases betrayal is painfull and in both cases trust may be breached..but only in the case of marriage does the BS have a RIGHT to expect no interlopers..only in a marriage does the WS have an OATH to protect..and only in the case of marriage does the OP have zero lack of plausable deniability.

Marriage is a legally, physically, and spiritually binding..dating is not.

Yes, you did miss that in the first post... he lied about the status of his relationship. That is not above board.




[email]Bull-Cr@p....it[/email] was her job once she learned that she was a back door convenience... not above board.... party to a cheater... to leave that relationship. The lines are not to KNOWINGLY be party to a deception against another person regardless of the situation. Period. Simple as that. She knew she was his cheat "toy" and she stayed around... that is what she did wrong. LO would advocate the same thing... there is nothing wrong in his mind with jumping on someone that has a COMMITTED relationship. That is where his position is immoral and deceptive. Yes, the relationship partners should be responsible... but so should the OP...
I have been asked out on dates and when I found out the person I went out with had a relationship with someone else... AND that he was not aware of her extracuricular activities... I would excuse myself from that situation 100% of the time. IT WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SO WHEN I LEARNED THE TRUTH. If I chose to stay and help her cheat... I was acting immorally.



Yeah and they start their training before marriage.

The positions I am reading here from people I respect are frankly disheartening. I really need to get off this board.

TA,

I think you want your H to take the burden so to speak on working with your D over the dating issue. You are emotionaly drained and just cannot do it.

Why not get them to lunch together and tell them what you need in no uncertain terms what you expect of them. Tell them why and then leave them both to talk while you take a day at a spa or something like that.

As someone who is married to the stiff upper lipped brit who has no clue on his one emotional IQ I have to be very direct and to the point. Would that work for you?

Let me ask you a hard Q MEDC..because you are the only person arguing a position we agree on.

I stated very clearly that once she became aware of the reality of the situation..she did the wrong thing by remaining in it.

We agree on that. I haven't seen anyone dispute that position yet.

Here's the question...tell me why the alternative date option has ANY responsibility to back off aside from having been rejected and maintianing personal integrity.

I'm really curious about your boundaries..because you seem to be holding people to committments that they have NOT made.

I'll not argue about the deceit..that's clear ...but you do seem to suggest that an unmarried person interested in dating another unmarried person who happens to be dating someone has some moral obligation to not pursue that person..in essence giving DATING the very same protected status as MARRIED..do YOU recognize a difference between the two?

So we are clear..I'm not talking about any underhanded behavior..no lies..secret trysts etc..but simply making it known that you are interested.

If you believe that this is a wrong behavior..please explain what makes it wrong.

We may just see this from very opposite ends of the spectrum..but what you seem to be calling wrong and inappropriate..I'd call perfectly healthy and even desireable behavior..

Whereas having sex and producing children with someone that you are NOT married to DOES fall into the wrong *and* irresponsible category for me..and you seem to want to give it protected status as though it were something it isn't based purely on the FEELINGS of the people [or one half of the couple] involved.

MEDC, I never thought I'd say this but I agree with you 100%.

TA, as to her father not being involved. When all this happened to my DD (without the added drama of the other person being committed to anyone), my DD just didn't want to talk to my H about it all. His opinion was that the young man was an SOB and he couldn't understand why she was involved with him in the first place. She wanted her mother (me) and only her mother. It was extremely exhausting and I used to dread Saturday mornings because that's when she would arrive on my doorstep, sometimes with a tear stained face, sometimes in hysterics.

We got through it. I see it as one more of my "motherly" jobs, just like being up with them all night when they were children and sick.