Pep, thanks for your response on my question yesterday. You said:

Pep, I agree with you that marriage is holy ground and that the commitment in a marriage is on a totally different level than the commitment in an engagement or exclusive relationship - it is definately not the same AT ALL, especially since the two partners have made vows in front of the altar, but IMO, even “temporary” commitments (like exclusive relationships) ask for basic decent human behavior from the partners like honesty, faithfulness, integrity, respect etc. from each other and IMO to go secretly on dates with others while in an exclusive relationship with a committed partner (even though the commitment might me temporary) is not honest, respectful, decent etc. at all – especially not towards the committed partner. In other words, a commitment doesn’t necessarily have to be holy and life-long (like marriage) to expect these basic human attributes of decent and respectful behavior to apply. And I do think it’s not only marriage which can be a Buyer/Buyer agreement. I’m sure there are many exclusive relationships out there which are not a Renter/Renter agreement like your previous long term relationship.

Pep, the fact that you and your partner have mutually agreed to have an “open relationship” is the distinguishing factor here. Both of you were honest with each other and didn’t secretly sneaked behind each others backs to date others. The moment this agreement was made, the relationship moved from an exclusive relationship to a non-committed and non-exclusive one, but there was no unfaithfulness and dishonesty during this process involved at all.

My point is, I think if a person in an exclusive relationship meet someone he/she is interested in and would like to date and know better, then that person must at least be honest with the partner about it and not secretly sneaking behind his/her back with other dates. This will also give the committed partner a chance to make an informed decision and decide if he/she wants to stay in a relationship which now became non-exclusive. This is basic decent & respectful human behavior…which is supposed to be applied in ALL areas in life and not just marriage. Can you agree with this?

Pep, with all the knowledge and experience you have, what would you do differently in this 14-year long relationship if you could go back and live your life again?

Noodle, I think if refusal of exclusivity is communicated with the partner, it is not dishonest so I agree that nonexclusitivity does not necessarily means dishonesty – as long as the partners are indeed honest with each other and not secretively sneaking behind each others back with other dates while suppose to be in a exclusive committed relationship with each other. Then rather be honest about it; end such an exclusive relationship and turn it to a "casual" relationship in stead which will give both people a fair & equal chance to get to know and date other people without being secretive and dishonest about it... Also read my post to Pep (previous post on this thread) please.

Suzet,

I agree with you that healthy dating relationships require honesty and integrity....all intimate relationships do. That's what everyone of us as a parent is hoping to teach our children. I wouldn't miss that opportunity to talk to my child about that if she was making the mistake that TA's daughter did. I don't think pep, noodle, or anyone else has sanctioned the dishonesty or affair "dynamics" that TA and her bf exibited. But I think several of us are saying a dating triangle is not at the same magnitude as an affair/differs from an affair. I also think that equating the two....reduces marriage in a way that diminishes it....makes it less special, less holy, less unique.

I think the question most folks are struggling with is does TA's daughter have a responsibility towards the gf? And I'm not sure she does (except in the general sense that we are all responsible for each other)....I think that's really the bf's responsibility, and that the agreement is a closed agreement.....only for that couple. I think TA's daughters big responsiblity is to herself.....and in that regard she has utterly failed herself and set herself up for heartbreak. As a parent....that would concern and frighten me. The reason I think she doesn't have a huge responsibility to the gf, is because.... what makes marriage special, is the same thing that gives some responsibility to people outside of the marriage (and makes marriage different from dating).

Here's what I mean:

I remember a thread a while back that was similar to this one in some ways. People were arguing about whether the OP had any responsibility or blame for the affair. I was arguing that they did (and I still believe they do)....but lots of folks didn't think so.

It seems to me like one of things that creates a responsibility for the OP in a marriage....is the same thing that kind of frees them from some of that responsibility in a dating situation. Here's what I mean....Marriage commitment is different from dating commitment for several reasons:

*Marriage is convenant with a life partner (and for most people, with their God and their community).

*It's also a "public" commitment of exclusivity and honesty where vows are spoken before church or legal officials, friends, family and the community. The vows themselves say "let no man put asunder".

*It's a building block for our community and offers a stability for producing the healthiest environment and legal structure for children. It creates continuity and stability for not just the couple....but the people around them.

*There is a direct obligation created by those vows between the partners....but there is also an "implied" and moral obligation created by those vows to the community that surrounds/nurtures it. Poor marriages, poor families, stressed out kids.....equal poor communities and affect everyone.

*It takes a village to raise child, to support a marriage, to take care of the old and sick and keep anarchy at bay.

Dating is different:

*It is not a convenant with God or the community....even though "keeping one's word" is an honorable thing to do, the agreement does reach beyond the couple. It doesn't imply that other people are responsible for helping to nurture or sustain a dating relationship that is temporary or that they can't compete with each other for the affections of single persons. It might be "skanky" to try to steal someone's steady....but it's not infidelity. They are free to try and win the hearts of unmarried people.....if they can. The partners have a responsibility to each other....but it's not a responsibility that other people share. I encourage my children to be honest.....so this situation would bother me greatly....but not to the extent that I'd label my children or TA's daughter and OP.

Let's say for instance that my daughter wanted her best friend's boyfriend. She'd get a huge lecture from me about what friendship and loyalty means and how disappointed I am in her. I'd use everything in my parental arsenal to tell her just how low that behavior is....and I'd discourage her from making that choice in ANY way I could. I'd do my best to help her avoid that situation. But would I punish her? Or refuse to talk to her? Or tell her that she's just like the OW my H committed adultery with? No....I would not.

The gray areas come in when folks use dating relationships to act like marriages....live together, have children...those types of situations should in <my mind> be treated like common law marriages so that the children don't suffer. Not everyone feels that way. I think this may be where some folks who have some trouble separating their own sitch from the dating lives of what sounds like a few promiscuous and troubled college students. They're in trouble and their characters are hopefully not fully developed....and this doesn't bode well for their future....but it's really not as serious as folks adding children to the mix without the protection of legal marriage....children create a "covenant" category ALL THEIR OWN in my book.

*Dating is a "let's see if we like eachother enough to move to the next step"....while marriage actually IS the next step. It's a place to find out if you're prepared for bigger things....but it's not the big thing....marriage is the big thing.

*It doesn't take a village to support dating (it only takes two)....dating is temporary....that's what dating is....a trial and interview. Marriage is supposed to be permanent. Going steady, living together is just that....but they aren't marriage. Marriage is too special to be less than what it is. And it's SO special that I think every man, woman, community member, church member, employer etc....should do their best to keep it holy and safe. (Not that they will LOL)

So I think that we're talking apples and oranges. Just because both dating and marriage have similarities and both benefit from honesty and integrity doesn't mean that they're the same thing or that the consequences for going outside of that relationship are as serious.

Stealing a dollar and robbing a bank are both wrong and both "stealing". Cheating a dating partner and cheating on a spouse are both wrong. They have similarities....they both say something about poor choices, poor character, poor predictions for the future. But you wouldn't call the person who stole the dollar a "bank robber" and I wouldn't call TA's daughter an OW. The person who stole the dollar might get grounded for a week....but the bank robber could get 25 years of jail. Life is designed to teach us the lessons we need to learn from mistakes whose consequences get bigger and bigger until we get them right. Dating is the time to make relationship mistakes AND LEARN FROM THEM so that you don't repeat them later when the stakes are so much higher. Dating is practice....and as such....I'm willing to allow my children to make some mistakes....I won't ignore those mistakes, but I don't equate those with marriage infidelity.

Suzet... I agree with you 100%. Okay... KiwiJm Suzet, MEDC in agreement... uh oh people, watch out... hel! is about to freeze over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Starfish, thanks for your informative and thorough post. As always I enjoy reading your posts and I think generally you have a very balanced view about most things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not sure what the point of this question is ... but here's my response ....

I would have made the intelligent drcision to break up with him when I moved to New York .... I would have DATED other men when I was a stewardess and not have thought our relationship was "marriage-enough" at age 20 !

I would have had more courage to get out when the handwriting was on the wall .... "things are not going well"

Mistakes people (particularly young women) make often include staying with someone for what they hope the relationship will be one day instead of taking an honest appraisal of what the relationship actually is right then and there...

In the words of famed Sweet Potato Queen Jill Conner Browne >>>> [color:"red"] BE PARTICULAR [/color]

Pep

Young women would be well advised to do the choosing and to be picky.

Men should be viewed as a parade when dating...

they come by as if in a parade and the smart young girl chooses the best candidate...

she does not allow herself to be the choosee...she is the chooser.

I wish I had understood that when I was in my twenties. This time around I chose what I wanted...I had criteria...I viewed it as a job interview where I was doing the hiring...and I picked the one I wanted, not just the one who picked me...and when I marry I will do so because everything is wonderful between us, not because of any potential I may hope may come to fruition after the wedding.

If I can teach my DD one thing about dating, I hope it is her own value... AND that love does not hurt...love is NOT supposed to hurt.

Pep, I asked out of curiosity. Thanks for your response. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet

[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

and this is WHY "moving in together" as a step "to the next level" is stooopid for young women.

The "next level" is MARRIAGE not auditioning as a wife!

Pep

MEDC,

Like Kiwi, I am 100 percent in support of your position.

To put it in a pure basic thought it is the ability to discern the crucial differences between “right” and “wrong”.

It is just plain “wrong” to romantically infringe on an existing relationship. It becomes especially disheartening to witness the folks here rationalize why such behavior is permissible and in some cases even desirable. I know that they have not forgotten that firsthand pain and agony that all have experienced as a result of being immersed in a love and/or sex triangle.

Married or not, it will never, ever, be OK to knowingly inflect that horror show on another human being. If a person thinks it is OK simply because there is no marriage certificate then I might suggest that that person examine their value system.

I think that TA’s daughter is now in the middle of such a triangle. The boyfriend’s behavior was despicable. It is heartbreaking to ONCE AGAIN see how small seemingly innocent actions can have such devastating effects, not only on the daughter, but also on the boyfriend and the girlfriend and most unfortunately on TA herself.

I know it is extremely desirable to have a concrete objective definition of when an affair actually occurs or a solid definition of an affair or what defines the deep personal romantic relationship that some women and men share with each other. However, the reality is that such a “line in the sand” is difficult to draw. If such a relationship is conveniently legitimized only at the specific time that a judge or clergyman recites, “I now pronounce you man and wife”, then I think that will obviously paints a false picture of what that relationship was 10 minutes prior to the marriage.

I think that big argument here is that some of us think that this whole forum is about building love and others think it is about building marriages. Do you build the marriage to build the love or do you build the love to build the marriage? I think you do the latter.

Mr. G

Mr. G.,

Thanks. I agree with your thoughts as well... it does come to down to a right/wrong thing for me. It is very disheartening to see some of the positions being rationalized here. Frankly, it is making me question my continued participation on this board.
Thanks again.

MEDC

Mr. Goodstuff


I'm a pretty relative person. I clearly have my own set of what I think is right and wrong. My values don't necessarily match everyone else's. Given that information, in your opinion how does one discern the crucial differences between "right" and "wrong"?

I ask only because you seem to believe there is some objective set of behaviors that isn't relative to the individual. I don't know of or use any particular objective criteria so I tell you up front my views are relative to my opinion/experiences/feelings. It might be easier to understand where you're coming from if you have an objective set you can point to unless I misunderstood you and there is no objective criteria you're using at which point my question is given that it's all relative to the individual, how do you decide if someone is discerning or not?


Why is it 'just plain wrong'? Actually, how can it be 'just plain wrong' when people have clearly and directly laid out reasons why they think it's not wrong? I can see that you think it's still wrong, but then you acknowledge that people have reasons for thinking it's not wrong. I think that certainly eliminates the 'just clearly' about it, don't you?


I examined my value system -- talked it over with my H last night. Actually, I was quite surprised to find out that I hadn't ever really made an ethical decision on whether or not it's ok to approach/pursue a married person. Oh, it's not because I ever would or DID pursue a married person -- it's because there is such a long list of reasons "Why this it is an absolutely horrible idea to pursue a married man.." that I never even GOT to the ethical considerations. I know some people put the ethical considerations at the top of the list (and that's fine for them) but even beyond the ethical considerations there are probably 100's of other really GOOD reasons why that is such a terrible idea.

After examining my value system last night, I determined the following:

There are two distinct parties involved in this situation to evaluate. People INVOLVED in a relationship and people EXTERNAL to that relationship.

People INVOLVED in a relationship have ethical responsibilities to each other according to whatever level of expressed or implied committment they have. They can 'cheat' on each other before or after marriage.

People EXTERNAL to the relationship have ethical responsibilities not to infringe on marital relationships. After that, it becomes a little fuzzy... because 'a relationship' is such a vague term it might comprise everything from friendship to engagement. Also, even in an 'exclusive, committed but non-marriage' relationship, the amount of effort required to break that committment on either parties behalf is much less than the amount of effort required in the case of a marriage. (though in some cases that can still be significant).

So, say I were a single gal and I was working with some guy who I found attractive. If he's married, I keep it to myself and go find someone else to fill my EN's. If he's single, I let him know about my attraction. If he's in a relationship, I might let him know about my attraction and let HIM decide whether or not he wants to break that committment.

If I'm smart, I don't go out with him until he's SINGLE (for a whole lot of reasons that don't necessarily have anything to do with ethics).


If I was extremely attracted to someone who was engaged and I just 'had to know' whether he returned the feelings -- I think the best time to tell him is BEFORE his wedding. The last thing you'd ever want to do is keep your mouth shut about that until AFTER the wedding unless you plan on not seeing him again. There's a reason for the "Speak now or forever hold your peace." sentiment.

That doesn't mean that he shouldn't tell me to 'get lost' but it does mean that up until the wedding, either the bride or the groom can call it off for whatever reason -- and probably should if they have any doubts at all about whether or not there should be someone else. (Ie. if it's your wedding day and you're not sure if that cute guy at the grocery store really likes you and you'd be curious about him... then you probably shouldn't get married until you ARE sure.)


What does building love have to do with making a decision about values in dating people who might be already in a non-married relationship? Certainly, you're not trying to build love between two other people...

Mys

MEDC, et el -

What difference does it make if a couple of posters hold different views than you do on what constitutes a committed relationship, or which relationships are deserving of being honored by them?

Take what you need and leave the rest. I am not even married but after two failed commonlaw marriages and a very damaged heart, I am here to learn what I need to have a successful R in the future.

Take what you need and leave the rest. Not all share the same views here...

You come here for yourself, or to help others...you do not come here for them, the ones who have hurt your feelings in saying that a marriage without a piece of paper is not legit in their eyes.

Who cares?

Heal, grow, give back...

and try not to take things too personally on the way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know one thing I have learned here is that regardless of any differing opinions, or seeminly different ethical values, everyone cares.

And that is what counts.

For me I won't be in a commonlaw marriage again...it didn't work, it was renter's mentality, and it garnered less respect or support than was needed when the chit hit the fan (I speak of my first with my DD's dad, not the last with the rat).

I personally don't view it (non legally married unions) as less, only less likely to succeed.

And now I am interested in succeeding.

Thanks for the message. I will think about what you have said.
Regarding the above quote... I wonder if it is true considering the state of marriage in the US... I wonder if they are less likely to succeed.

What this thread has meant, for me.

The issue is not that people bring pain on others in nefarious ways when they are not married ... that is a given. It is not good behavior.

The issue is seeking the protection of marriage without actually getting married is a defacto lowering the bar of the importance & sanctity of marriage.

No one is saying lying, cheating, playing others for a fool is good, decent behavior.

When you make marriage so indistinguishable that other non-marriage relationships are treated as a marriage, you actually damage marriage as an honorable and special institution.

Harley has some interesting views on living together before marriage, and he says they have a very high rate of failure...even after the couple legally weds.

In the front of the website, and very good to read.

Pep, I disagree... what makes marriage less that an honorable and special institution is the lies and deceptions that visit by some estimate close to 80% of them. And my point yesterday and today is... that a person that cannot bring themselves to respect a committed relationship and is either the cheater or someone helping another to deceive is a horrible risk for marriage. Cheating while dating... and again it was not argued once yesterday that a mutual decision to date others was wrong... is a training ground for cheaters when married.

And like Mr. G said... the mentality that was being thrown around yesterday would allow for deception up until ten minutes before the "sacred" vows. This was not a discussion about what was being done in the light of day. It was a discussion about sneaking behind somebodys back and being ushered out the back door when the real girlfriend arrived. That is cheating, deceit and dishonorable.

Marriages have a very high rate of failure too. Over 50% divorced and as many as 80% with a cheater. That is pretty high too.

On July 24th, 2002, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a new report, "Cohabitation, Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage in the United States." This fact sheet provides additional information about the report, which can be downloaded from the CDC website.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/02news/div_mar_cohab.htm

- The researchers found much larger differences in divorce rates for other factors they considered. While there was a 9% difference in the ten-year divorce rate between couples who cohabited and those who didn't, the difference was 30% by family income (couples with an income of $50,000 or more are much less likely to get divorced), 24% by age at marriage (women who marry when they're 25 or older are less likely to divorce), 14% by religion (religious women are less likely to divorce), and 13% by education (women with education beyond high school are less likely to divorce).


here's a shocking fact... the % of couples that had no religious affiliation that eventually divorced is 4% lower than those with strong religious convictions. Wow... can that be true??? http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know ! Pep