I don't find it shocking because the study doesn't say *why* they divorced.

The thing about very strong religious convictions is that they tend to be very specific and, the stronger the religious convictions, the less room there is for variance in beliefs within a couple. There's no guarantee that your spouse will always feel AS STRONGLY about a particular religious value as you do. The stronger you feel about a particular value, the less palatable it might be for your spouse to hold a different view.

For example, a moderately religious person (whatever that means) might be able to live with a non-religious person where as someone who is very devout might not feel evenly yoked even with a moderately religious person.

Say a devout person married another devout person who later renounced the religion. It would be, as far as I can tell, a reason for divorce. That would be one less thing for a non-religious couple to worry about (though I suppose it could easily happen the other way, too). Maybe non-religious people care less about other people's religious beliefs (even spouses) than religious people do.

Mys

Your friendly, neighborhood athiest

You seem to assume that "right" and "wrong" in this instance is self evident and a forgone conclusion.

It is clearly not.



Ok...let's talk about a slightly different love triangle...

Assuming people are intrinsically sovereign and may choose with whom they will have relationships and with whom they won't....

Some WS's on this board have decided that they no longer love their BS. They have decided that they love their OP.

Based on your assertion, the BS has no business interfering with that existing relationship, do they?

Does the BS not have the right to "Plan A" their spouse?

What if the WS divorces their BS and marries the OP? Would the ex-S have the right to "interfere" in that relationship?

Let's assume they are not married...wouldn't the jilted partner have the right to "interfere" with that "existing" relationship?

Of course these are ridiculous questions...but it's often in the ridiculous that we can find clarity...

Very good point LO.

I concur.

FWIW - I have a DS18 at home so we are going through dating drama and trauma.

I can tell you that these high school kids, boys and girls alike, make a VERY clear distinction between casual dating and dating exclusively. When there is an agreement to date exclusively - what we used to call "going steady" - it is expected that neither party will go out with, spend time alone with or hang out with another person of the opposite sex.

And they DO use the word CHEATING to describe "going out with someone else when you agreed to exclusively date your boyfriend/girlfriend."

Sounds promising to me.
Mulan

Mulan...

I take you think you're son is real catch for some lucky girl...and there are probably a few girls out there who'd want be lucky with him...(I mean than in the most innocent of ways)

Until he's married...don't you think they should be able to let him know that they are interested in him?

Would you want him to have as many choices as he could?

I want and expect any man worth his salt to PURSUE my daughters...even if they are dating...if he doesn't want her bad enough to do this, then he's not worthy of her.

I'm sorry, I don't respect the "noble" man who'll let the woman he loves go down the aisle with a another man without trying...I think he's a wuss and deserves what he doesn't get!

But I consider marriage to be the boundary. When one marries, publicly, they are telling everyone that they are no longer available. I think we agree that's a boundary that should be respected by those outside the marriage.

Mulan..

They did when I was in school as well..but I didn't agree with it then and I don't think it's healthy now.

What I remember basically fits into two categories... serial quasimarriage and casual sex.

I was left wondering..what about healthy boundaries?

In my opinion BOTH of these approaches are unbalanced.

Neither prepare them to sustain long term relationships that include sexual intimacy...in fact I might go so far as to suggest that they TRAIN young people to be fertile ground for affairs.

I really think that these years should rather be spent focussing on studies...meeting new people...trying on different lives if the opportunities present and just really getting prepared for that next step..independance.

I would be very alarmed if my child was exhibiting what I considered a premature overinvestment in any dating relationship...just as much as if I found out they were making lipstick rainbows [or receiving them] at parties.

As a parent I will do my part to maintain that gap..try to give them a realistic set of expectations with regard to what marriage requires from a person..and hopefully not send them into adulthood grossly unprepared.

When I look at these scenarios ..such as TAs DD..what grieves me most is the EXCRUCIATING immaturity and lack of foresight demonstrated by the people involved...we are going to have to raise the legal driving age to 25 and the drinking age to 45 if we can't find some way to make a turnaround from this habit of sustained adolescence that has become the norm.

Treating marriage like advanced dating and vice versa perpetuates this psuedo reality that I witness people existing in every day.

I think that having clearly defined boundaries and definitions with regard to what marriage IS and what it is NOT helps to pull people back into their LIVES and enables them to invest appropriately, selectively, and with willfull intent.

You know, I'm kind of lethargic at the moment about the ethics of relationship boundaries. I started this thread because I have an uncomfortable personal dilemma and I've still got it whether my daughter was a complete innocent or whether she broke up a family of ten.

She took an unwise risk and got hurt. Actions have consequences. She's learning a useful lesson, etc, etc. But she's still hurting - a lot. And she's not a name in a book or a handle in an internet forum. She's my daughter.

She didn't break up a marriage. Heck, she didn't even disturb the surface of a non-cohabiting romance. She was the one ejected from the secret triangle, the only one that's hurting.

Let's say I call her tonight. She's been alone in her student home for three days, studying for resits and hiding out in case she meets BoyX. She will be depressed and anxious and lonely, and she will want to talk to me and get some motherly reassurance.

So I do my best to listen and advise and offer hope that things will get better. But at some point, if she talks long enough, it may well start to feel difficult and uncomfortable for me...

...Let's say I set a boundary. I could say "DD, I love you and want you to be happy, but this is hurting me too much and I have to stop you. So, let's talk about food. What are you cooking for yourself these days?"

And let's say the mother's worst nightmare happens...she is found tomorrow with her wrists slit in the bath.

This isn't such a unlikely prospect, is it? One of the highest suicide rates in the UK is among stressed new students, struggling academically and bruised by unwise relationships. My daughter is a drama queen at the best of times. It's not a silly fear.

Because who will listen to you if it's not your mother? Mum is the Place of Last Resort - the ultimate, reliable comfort zone. If your mother cuts you off, where else is there to go? Especially if your father would do anything to avoid discussing anything personal with you.

How would I feel? Would I be OK because 'my boundaries were fair and reasonable'? I've read all the boundary books, I know you're not supposed to feel responsible for another person's decisions. But if the person is your 20 year-old daughter, and you're her mother?

Where does a mother draw the line, to protect her own sanity? Where does a mother just have to get bigger and braver so she can help her child? When is it draw-the-line, and when is it take-a-deep-breath-and-make-yourself-bigger?

And if I have to get bigger, how do I do it? Do I have to figure out a way to deal with the View-from-the-OW? Is that my challenge?

Do I sic her onto her father? Do I refuse to answer the phone to her, so that he has to deal with whatever's at the other end? Is that just using my child to force H to confront issues that I want him to confront? Because I know that I burn with the desire for him to have to talk to her about the consequences of selfish choices; I yearn to have him see how deep and wide the damage goes. But is that just a cruel way to use my child for my own ends?

How do I find a way to manage myself through this?

TA

Are you saying, in your opinion, your daughter is un-prepared for the hardships life?

Sounds like fogged out WS thinking... the woman he loves... doesn't that assume a relationship LO????

I know some people that don't have the same boundries as you... they think it is okay to interfere in a marriage... and think they have no responsibility to the relationship at all. They don't respect the institution and I see their willingness to interfere in that situation as no different than your reasoning. I mean, heck, if they don't think there is anything wrong with it and they are only pursuing the one they "love"... why not right? Maybe the person that pursued my partner and yours had the same mentality. Guess we got what we deserved because we were not man enough to hang on to our women.

Your logic allows for a very slippery slope where peoples words mean nothing.

Treating marriage like advanced dating and vice versa perpetuates this psuedo reality that I witness people existing in every day.

Yeah....its the "vice versa" that gets to me. I think that marriage is one of the most special things in this world. I LOVED being a wife. I think it is cheapened when people live together and want to present themselves as a married couple. Yes, that is MY opinion.

I also think that it is the epitome of trashy when people are living together...have multiple children...and then want to claim that they are engaged. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Yep, you sure are engaged...you are engaged in trashy behavior.

Can you imagine...being "engaged" for 14 years...and 4 kids later...?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

They are deluding themselves if they even think that marriage is gonna happen...and in MY opinion they are trying to "legitimize" a shacking up situation by calling it an "engagement".

Flame away...

committed

take a look at this



so what if it feels difficult and/or uncomfortable for you?

I don't mean this disrespectfully, so I better explain.

Can YOU expect your daughter to face life's difficult times if you cannot do that yourself?

If you get to a point in the conversation where you want to wring her neck ... just sign off for a break.

She is 20, she's not 2. There are people her age fighting wars. She must be stronger than you give her credit for.

Pep

I'd say you are in a difficult position because *if* your daughter does slit her wrists ...no matter what you DID do...you will not likely be at peace about it.

So my first question would be...in your objective opinion [as close as you are able to get to having one] is your DD suicidally depressed?

Is she manifesting symptoms of someone who might be contemplating it? Does she have a history of self destructive behaviors and lack self soothing techiniques?

Then..of course you'll have to wonder...did I FEED the fire by participating in her wallow..or did I cut her off when she needed to talk?

Hard to know. I couldn't answer that Q. I doubt anyone could.

I know that if it were *me* I wouldn't be satisfied talking about food or the weather if something was weighing on my mind...but I also know that obsessions are fed when we keep breathing life into them...so I really only see one way around it.

I'd probably let her talk..but I would also probably redirect the conversation with honest adult observations and try to turn the focus OFF of the boy..the loss..etc..and onto her life..her goals..her dreams..and so on.

I'd acknowledge the pain..because it's real..but I'd ask her in all honesty if in retrospect she had any hunches..or things she dismissed..and what she thinks about that now.

I'd ask her how it felt to be going out the back door. Was it exciting? Did it feel like they were in cahoots? Like they had a common enemy? Ask her if it ever felt bad..and how she reconciled those bad feelings in order to continue...If she wants to have a long exploratory look at things..I'd do it but I wouldn't feed a fantasy.

...Let's say I set a boundary. I could say "DD, I love you and want you to be happy, but this is hurting me too much and I have to stop you. So, let's talk about food. What are you cooking for yourself these days?"


And let's say the mother's worst nightmare happens...she is found tomorrow with her wrists slit in the bath.

TA,

I found myself having those thoughts about my daughter if I had to set boundaries too. What if I don't buy her that brand new mustang...and she does this. You can find youself second guessing EVERY parental decision you make when you let those thoughts creep in.

My daughter told me once..."it will be YOUR fault if I wreck and kill myself trying to get home to make curfew"!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Nope...that ain't on me.

Try to stop those thoughts because they will paralyze you and you won't be able to be the parent that you need to be.

jmho
committed

TogetherAlone

One thing you might want to look into is some counseling for yourself in the near future -- not because there's anything wrong with you but because you said in the first post of this thread that everyone comes to you with their problems, it's draining to you, and you have no one to go to. You need an outlet to remain healthy.


Aren't you being a little hard on yourself here? The scenario you described is that you *did* listen -- but eventually had enough. Where is it written that Mom has to be some bottomless pit of empathy? You're allowed to have limits. You SHOULD have limits.

Also, it's clear you have a lot of resentment towards your H (is he still your H? I don't know your full story) because of his unwillingness to support you or her during this. If you're still married, then you might need to go to some short term counseling to get that issue out on the table and come to some resolution of it.


It's draw the line when ever you find yourself being drained more than you're willing to be drained. It's take-a-deep-breath-and-make-yourself-bigger when it's absolutely life/death/limb necessary to do so. Otherwise, you let people shoulder their own loads -- even children.


How much would your view of this situation change if your daughter was dating a guy who found a new girlfriend and was just as annoyed (competitive) about that?


With care and compassion for yourself just like you'd have for some dear friend who was going through this same issue.

Mys

NO, it really doesn't. It that stage, early "love" can be very one sided...and, by God, it's very selfish...but I think he has the right to pursue it.

Don't worry...if she's really committed to the marriage, her fiance has nothing to worry about...

BUT...what if she's not? Better to find out now, I say...



Nope...it only gets slippery when people refuse to recognize marriage as a boundary. You, in fact are advocating a boundary be established earlier...at the exclusive dating stage. This is really the crux of our disagreement...exactly where that line is drawn.

Things are only slippery and fuzzy when someone is operating without boundaries at all...

I know what that feels like... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gotta add some more...the world is very fuzzy place...
As star pointed out earlier...we seem to want to draw a distinction between stealing $1 or a million dollars.

I think you're quite right that there are folks who believe an unhappy, lonely married person is fair game...

How do we manage that?

I think there's a huge clue in the very core theories that MB is founded on...we try to keep our spouses EN's met.

Is that a guarantee? No, but it sure improves our chances.

I...as an individual... have chosen to drawn the line between an available woman and one who isn't at marriage. You seem to be choosing another, more encompassing line.

That's ok...The success path is similar....

We do all we can to keep the woman of our choice engaged in relationship with us...

[color:"red"] *snort* [/color]

Yes. You're right.

I need to work this one out more carefully. Let's see if I can explain...

You see, I seem to be set up to cope with the actual conversation. I can stay with it and be calm. It's afterwards that I have the problems. It's later that my mind begins to cycle her words and the distress starts.

I was trained to be like this. My own mother's constant rages and tantrums had to be coped with - I always had fight down my fear and anger in order to manage hers - I couldn't allow myself to get upset or defensive because it inflamed her to dangerous levels - I had to deal with my emotions on my own later. I still find it hard to feel the emotion in the moment, it's always delayed.

It's a bit like sitting under a hot sun...you think you're not burning at all...it's only later that your skin starts to scream.

I need to work out a way to identify when I'm getting beyond a line where it's going to hurt later.

My experience of telling someone that I'm hurting is that they hurt me more. My mother did it, H does it. They shame me by telling me that I'm not hurting, that I'm just trying to manipulate them with guilt. And because I can never feel the hurt till later, H accuses me of hypocrisy, of having lied about being OK in the time between.


I need to work out the signs from my body that I've moved beyond the comfort zone; I need to learn to be able to say that it's hurting; I have to find a way to handle the reaction I get from that (not from DD - last week, for the first time ever, I told her that I had nothing to give her, that I was just too drained myself, and she accepted that and said she was sorry for laying all this on me, and changed the subject.)

Last year, I was honest with my mother about feeling hurt and scared of her actions when I was a child. I was honest because she invited me to tell her. Result: huge maternal tantrum, and a stream of aggressive calls from my father threatening me with violence if I talked to her like that again. The source of the problem isn't hard to find.

I need to think about the solution. It's me that's not protecting me here, isn't it?

TA

TA, I just wanted to drop in and give you a word of support. The things you describe from your childhood are all too familiar to me. In my case, it was attempting to manage the drunken rages that go with alcohol abuse. The skill serves me very well in work situations when things get hot. Others ask me how I stay so calm. They don't usually see me afterwards, though.

Your last line is so true. You get to choose to protect you. It's hard to do. Not just because it takes courage, but because sometimes things really do cause us harm and we can't always get out of the way fast enough. The more you listen to those signals, though, the better. They are there. Trust 'em. Get jumpy for a while. That's okay -- you'll learn where the right level is pretty quickly.

[color:"red"]*ding*ding*ding* [/color]

You are manipulating this to suit your needs... there is no relationship... so how could there be love. We are talking about not interfering int he first place... so there would not have been an opportunity for love. LO... I don't mean to offend you here... and I know there are BS with your line of thinking... but it is easy to see how you allowed yourself to have an A with this line of thinking... that you can love someone before even sharing a relationship.