Here's the skinny:

My wife and I have been married for just over a year and have been living together for over three years. I am 25 years of age and she is 24.

Long story short, one night she tells me that she's not in love with me anymore and has felt this way for about two years (even before the wedding). I asked her if she had been cheating on me, and she admitted to her adultery. It was with a co-worker, and she said it only happened twice.

She went on the vacation we had been planning without me, which put her with her family for a week while I was stuck at home alone, bouncing back and forth between severe depression and insatiable rage.

When she got back, I asked her all the questions I had been hoarding in my brain during my week of solitude. She still said she felt no love for me as a husband anymore and that she considered me to be more of a best-friend relation. I told her I would NEVER do to a best-friend what she did to me; ergo I did not accept her explanation.

She is willing to give marriage counseling a shot. We have our first session scheduled for next week.

But questions still wrack my brain, and every time I bring up the adultery and start scrutinizing, she gets angry and asks when I’m going to let it go.

What really bites is that we are still under the same roof – and I’m sleeping on the couch. She says she “doesn’t mind” if I sleep in the bed with her, but I don’t want to go back until she WANTS me there. She also trolls around the apartment as if nothing has changed, still calling me the pet names she uses. It hurts every time she does that, because it makes me realize what a fraud she has been during our whole marriage and how I’ve been played for a fool.

Today she told me she confronted the OM and told him it was over, that we were working things out, and not to contact her anymore unless it's work-related. I find this gesture on her part unacceptable and lacking concreteness. I need something more tangible.

I still have more questions for her regarding her infidelity. Mostly I want to find out the true identity of the OM, because I have pretty good evidence it was a 47-year old co-worker of hers instead of the 32-year old. I found a cell phone number in her phone belonging to this 47-year old, whom she happened to call on the days she was sleeping around, as well as the two days prior (I corroborated this by checking her cell phone bill). I would like to confront her with this information without jeopardizing our counseling.

Any feedback would be swell. I feel totally alone in this and need help. I apologize if I haven’t been clear enough in my post – I just need an open ear and some sound advice to assuage the tempest raging in my head.

Thanks in advance for listening…

Welcome to marriagebuilders. I'm glad you have found us.

You need to do lots of reading here. The starting point is Plan A. That is where you show her what a great husband you can be, with no disrespectful judgements or angry outbursts.

For your marriage to have a chance, she needs to have no contact ever again, for any reason, with the other man. Until that happens, counseling will be a waste of time.

Your wife is not remorseful, and most wayward spouses aren't at first. But that usually changes.

Hang in there, and stick with us. We can help you through this.

Welcome
Go back and read the basic concepts.
Start looking in Plan A
Realize she may still be in the affair or at least in the fog
You need to evaluate yourself what have you brought to the table as in way of baggage.

You need to get back into bed with her, if she will let you hold her hold her, if she will let you cuddle cuddle. You need to show her that you want to connect, standing off doesn't work, unless the you can prove the affair is ongoing.

Expect your history to be revisted, I love but not in love with you is the most common phrase out of a WW mouth.

You have to realize she is still ripe for another affair, until both of you find out what went wrong it will happen again

I agree. Your time is best spent reading this site, and the books you can get from Harley. You have a lot of self-discovery to do.

Bring all of your questions here. There are many wise people who can guide you.

foundareason

Let me welcome you to MB. This is the best source for getting the scoop on how WS wandering spouses act.

Just wanted you to know that your wife's behavior is not any different than any of the other ws.

The reason that she is spouting that she doesn't love you anymore is because she is involved with another man.

FYI,
Counseling is a waste of money and time until there is no contact with OM (other man).

Your first mission is to read up on Plan A.

Plan A is Part carrot
and
Part Stick.

Carrot is learning to be the person that any reasonable person would want to come home to.

Self-improvement, no lovebusting by, anger, clingyness, accusations, and other things that turn WS off.

The stick part is exposing her affair to those that can make a difference.

Since you are not sure who exactly the OM is, you need to do some investigating, being sure to keep your sources to your self, once you tell her your sources, you won't be able to use them again.

Once you know who the OM is, it is time to expose.

This is the stick part.

Exposing shines the light on the activity and the dirtiness of the cheating spouses affair.

Right now, it feels good, the endorphins are suring through her body, and this is the feeling that she compares to your love.

That is not love, just plain ole simple, hormones....

She doesn't know that yet, but eventually you will be able to show her, that what she has is based on fantasy and not facts.

These books might be helpful:

Love Has to be Tough James Dobson

His Needs Her Needs Williard Harley

Surviving an Affair Willard Harley

Lovebusters Williard Harley

Not Just Friends Shirley Glass


Keep your emotions in check right now, even though I know that is very difficult at this time.


Check back often,

There are great posters that have all been through this.



k.d.'s Heartbreak

hello ther. Greetings from Jamaica. glad you found this site.

first. be calm. second dont DO ANYTHING without advice.

You have incredible resources at your fingertip here.

dont let her spewing affect how you look on life.

as i was told it is just standard WW textbook talk.

Remember start Plan "A" like crazy and wait for ADVICE.

pray. YOU WILL MAKE IT.

You have the power. You set the rules. Don't worry if 'she doesn't like it'. She made the choice to damage the marraige, not you. Now it's your choice on whether you forgive her or not, and try to save the marriage.

Very young for this experience. Sounds like you have 'not much' economically yet, and no children. I would caution you greatly on this endeavor...especially with her flippant attitude, it's a sign of her youth...but yet still more.

Find out who OM is. Expose it to his wife. Don't worry about your wife being mad. Who cares? Do you think your marriage is actually gonna get worse? You have the power.

-hang in there

Thanks for the advice.

I have done much self-examination over the last several days, and I am putting Plan A into effect immediately. I have already nailed down many things I can improve about myself with regards to our marriage.

I have also provided WW with copies of the Emotional Needs, Love Bank, Love Busters, Radical Honesty, etc. and we are going to go over those materials together. We also plan to take the questionnaires for Emotional Needs and Love Busters. Is this a good move? Am I doing the right thing by including her in what this website has to offer? I want to show her that I am committed to making this work.

I need something to pry open her shell - she keeps telling me she has always been the type to bottle things up, but I hope these materials will give her a little coaxing.

Again, feedback is much appreciated for a greenhorn like me.

Yes, it is a great thing to get her involved in this site!!

A lot of WS's feel their A is unique. When they come on here and realize almost all affairees talk and think the same and all think they had (or have) something "special" when in reality it wasn't (or isn't), they may start to come out of the fog.

Let me just tell you if YOU are willing to save the M, it is a long, SLOOOOOW process. The pain is unimaginable and the thoughts are uncontrollable. I don't want to discourage you, but I feel if my kids weren't involved in my M it wouldn't have been worth it for me to try and save it. I am young also, 28 and that is one of the reasons I feel this way.

And I'm actually in a better position than a lot of BS's here (if that's possible <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) since my FWH ended all contact with OW immediately and is more committed to saving the M than I am. It is soooo hard.

But it can be done.....and if you are willing to do it, it will be worth it.

Keep us updated.

--CO

zx:

Plan A has no downsides for the BS. If you implement it well the worst thing that can happen is that you will become a much better person and partner for whomever you choose to spend the rest of your life with. As the I love you, but not in love with you and haven't loved you for more than two years..yada yada... standard wayward psyco babble. I don't know what manual they all have to get this crap out of but if you read any number of sitches on here, they are all exactly the same.

I have read that even though Dr. Harley is extremely pro-marriage, he suggests that were there are no children and early into the marriage that the best solution often is for the betrayed to chose to leave the marriage and "cut the losses". However, I will tell you that I believe this is a very personal decision that you and you alone have to make. There is nothing wrong at all with you implementing a phenomenal plan A, trying to rebuild your relationship and if at some point down the road you decide that it won't work for you, it makes it much easier to move forward without children in the picture. That being said, I believe that you should ensure at all costs that there is not a pregancy in your near future. If you are engaging in SF, for your own protection, use protection...even if she is on the pill, etc.

A marriage can be rebuilt and be even better after an affair ends. Ending the affair and absolute no contact with the OM are priority number one, taking care of yourself and starting your personal recovery are a close second. You need to start your plan A immediately and do the things that you have started like doing a EN questionaire and discussing with WW. Then set some loving boundaries to your relationship. I would approach your wife something similar to this. "WW, I love you dearly. You have made choices that has put our relationship at risk but I love you so sincerely I am willing to put all of my energy and ability into salvaging our relationship and rebuilding it to have a much more intimate and fulfilling relationship than either of us have ever imagined. I have read a lot of stories on MB where this is possible, but it is not easy and will require much effort from both of us. I refuse to live in a loveless marriage but I am committed to make you love me even more than you ever did. However, in order for me to commit this energy to this rebuilding process, we need to agree on the following:

1) No contact, no exception. Contact with OM has to end immediately. There are no exceptions. Since you work with OM, you will need to find a new job. If he contacts you for any reason, in any way, you will immediately notify me.

2) Radical honesty. This is the prerequisite for any successful relationship. Both of you need to read the radical honesty concepts on MB and discuss. There is no room for dishonesty in a relationship and practicing RH is the best way to affair proof your marriage.

3) Total transparancy and accountability. Recovery is a rollercoaster ride regardless of your age, number of years marriage, etc. As a BS, you most likely will have wild swings of emotion from a love attack to feelings of hate and resentment. Often, early on you can experience the full range of these emotions almost simultaneously. In order to speed your recovery and allow you to focus your efforts on the rebuilding process instead of what has happened in the past, your WW needs to provide you the tools to monitor her future actions. This includes without exception access to all email accounts, phone records, credit cards and she also needs to be able to fully account for her time. Trust but verify. Worked for Reagan with the Russians, it can work for you in your marriage. There can be no unexplained, unaccounted time for her even if it is totally innocent. You gave her your trust once before and she abused it. Now she has to earn it back.

4) Be compassionate towards one another. This is part of the avoiding lovebusters idea promoted by Dr. Harley but goes a little further. You are entitled to know as much information about the affair, how it developed, certainly who it was with, etc. as you want. (Be careful what you wish for here though). However, the information that you obtain from her radical honesty cannot be used as a weapon against her for eternity. Big LB'er that will ruin any changes of recovery. At the same time, she cannot even imagine how much emotional and physical pain you are feeling right now. You both need to learn how to be compassionate towards each other. When you have rage and anger towards her, try to change that feeling to compassion. When she doesn't understand how sick you are, she cannot feel your pain but she owes you to try and be compassionate and supportive. Early after D-day, my priest told me that the most important thing I could do was to pray and ask for the gift of compassion. As hard as it was, I did and believe that God granted me that gift. It was the salvation of our marriage.

5) Don't try and solve all these problems overnight. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will your new marriage be. For you, don't focus on forgiveness yet. Just focus on acceptance. You cannot change what has already happened. You can positively impact what happens from this point forward. Your WW is deep in the fog. She doesn't believe she loves you. This is really her self defense mechanism trying to help her justify her actions that deep down she knows was really wrong. Don't demand that she get the loving feeling back immediately, but ask and expect that she will treat you will common dignity and decency. In return, your plan A should show her just how good of a person she risked losing in her poor choices. Given time and a good plan A, she will not only love you again but will most likely go through a period of deep remorse, poor self esteem, and a myriad of other issues that she will have to deal with as she realizes that she has to live with what she did for the rest of her life. In the long run, I am not sure that the wayward doesn't have it the hardest, we were just cuckolds, our willingness to see the best in people and trust too easily caused us some pain when they made their bad choices, but they have to live with those choices for the rest of their lives. Once again, the ability to feel compassion for them is great. The best advice that I can give you right now is to just take one day at a time. Time is on your side. Time doesn't heal all the wounds, but time does give us the opportunity to make changes in ourselves that will heal those wounds.

5) You, me and every other betrayed spouse in the history of the world failed to establish boundaries in our relationships that ultimately allowed this to happen under our noses and behind our backs. She owns the choices that she made and you bear no responsibility for those choices. However, you are equally responsible with her for creating the environment that allowed the A to happen. You can change that by implementing your Plan A to allow your true feelings for her to be shown, by establishing boundaries in your new relationship that are not guidelines for how each of you should treat one another, but rather absolutes that are expected from both parties in a relationship i.e. no inappropriate meetings with other people, especially those of the other sex, no sharing of personal feelings, disappointments, etc. with other males, total radical honesty from both, working to meet the other persons most important emotional needs, avoiding lovebusters, treating each other with respect...the list could go on and on. You need to establish your expectations for the relationship and she needs to establish hers. You need to use the Policy of Joint Agreement to define those specifically and it should be understood by both of you that if you want to salvage your marriage, those boundaries must be upheld at all costs.

Finally, I would suggest that you don't make long term decisions too quickly. If you need to move or she needs to find another job in order to ensure NC, those are things that have to be addressed immediately. On the other hand, unless you have a crystal ball that is better than mine, it is impossible to determine at this point how either of you will feel towards the other six months, a year or two years down the road. Everyone is different and everyone handles this sitch differently. Rather than to recommit to each other for a lifetime, recommit if that is your choice to next week, then next month, then next year. I believe that all BS's even if their intial reaction is to do whatever it takes to rebuild this relationship, should leave room for an out down the road if you give it everything you have and it still doesn't work. Worst case scenario using this approach is that you have developed skills that will be quite useful in other relationships and if it ultimately ends in divorce, perhaps there can be some civility in that process and you will always know that you did everything within your power to try and make it work.

NT

profound advice...even for me to read.

take note and seriously ask yourself these questions.

Do YOU want this. if so then FIGHT for it. FIGHT with patience, QUIET but potent love.

One thing it will make you. A better person.

Go with God.

NT, thank you for your advice and yes, nc007 I am going to fight tooth and nail to prove to WW that she is making the biggest mistake of her life if she lets me slip away. Plan A is in full swing.

I do have a question, however. With regards to laying down the "no contact" rules; one of my LB's I have identified is I tend to be overly-staunch sometimes when dealing with WW with regards to debt, finances, etc. She accused me of trying to be a "father figure" to her. I see it as trying to get her into healthy financial habits to rebuild her credit (which is ruined, by the way - mine is top-notch). I was looking at the big picture, because you have to be fiscally savvy to balance all that building a family requires. I know now that WW didn't see it that way - she saw it as me trying to manipulate her by imposing onto her what I thought was the right way to handle her finances.

When I told her that no contact with OM meant having to find another job, she told me she was happy at her job and didn't want another one. On the other hand, she says she's willing to fix our marriage. How do I communicate to her that no contact MUST occur in order to save the marriage, without coming off as the LBing father figure?

Thanks again; you are all making this MUCH more bearable for me.

The reason why NC has to be absolute is that especially during the fog period, any contact has the potential to rekindle the old flame and start the process right back at the beginning. I think an especially good thread to send her to is one about six months ago by KiwiJ, one of the more grounded waywards here. She fell off the contact wagon, I believe quite innocently by agreeing to meet the OM to "see how he was doing" and "more importantly to show him that she was fine without him". Although that meeting did lead to another meeting but stopped short of any physical contact, Kiwi realized the power of the draw to the OM and also realized that she not only risked losing her BS for good after she told him of renewed contact but also started the recovery process all over for her.

This is how I might suggest framing this:

Wife, I really do want to try and do whatever we need to do to save our marriage. I am certainly not an expert at what steps need to be taken but I am willing to learn what we both need to do in order to protect each other and rebuild our trust and relationship. Most pro-marriage counselors and experts are rebuilding relationships after affairs all agree that absolute no contact is required in order to have any chance of success. Since you chose someone that is at your workplace, either you will need to find a new job or he will in order for no contact to be possible. I wish there was another possibility but the consensus of the experts is affairs are complex and involve chemistry as well as emotions. I feel like that it allows me to feel much more protected and risk the effort that it will take to rebuild our relationship if we utilize experts in our decisions of rebuilding. I don't want to give you ultimatums but if I am going to put all the effort into this that rebuilding a marriage will take, I think we need to follow the methods that have been tried and truthed over time in order to give us the best opportunity for success. That is why that getting a new job is a prerequistite for this process.

Give something like that a try and avoid ultimatums and talking down to her. I have the same father figure issues with my wife and have found that if I can phrase things to allow her to be included in the decision, she is much more receptive to those decisions...even if they really came from the father figure in me.

NT

Babblematic Translator 2000: I have realized that the man I am having an affair with cannot be someone I spend my life with so perhaps I'll end it (perhaps not). But I will accept no consequence for my actions. I will stay at work and put my priorities above the safety of my family. Oh, but I will agree to put minimal effort toward fixing our marriage if it will keep you pacified.

if (Spouse.Status == StatusEnum.Cheater)
{
Spouse.NoContactPriority = Family.PriorityLevels.Maximum;
}

NT:

Could you direct me to KiwiJ's thread you referenced earlier? I am very eager to have WW read what she has to say...

Thanks a million!

zx:

I looked for KiwiJ's thread and she posts so much that it would not let me go that far back. I am going to start a new thread for you and others regarding the dangers of just short of no contact. I am not an expert in this matter, but others here are and I think that their perspective would be very valuable for your wife and others.

ZX,
Knowing what you wnat is the most important determinant here. SInce you know you want to fight for your marriage, all I can say is, it's time to start being proactive and thoughtful in the things you say and do. You have some great advisors here (I"m not one of them, I'm more of a supporter)... so listen to the advice you get, trust it, and hope for the best.

New thread is started under the title of Dangers of Just a Little Contact. Hopefully you will get some good examples and advice really soon. JFYI, the OM in our case now lives more than 1000 miles away. However, there is one activity that both our families are deeply involved in that creates an opportunity for renewed contact. At this point, I am relatively sure that there is no attraction by my FWW towards him and probably the same with him. But my boundaries are this: If we attend an event that we might see OM, my FWW agrees that if it makes me uncomfortable that we will both leave...no questions asked. I have talked to OM and created boundaries with him as well. My boundaries are that he will not have any contact with anyone in my family, ever for any reason, period. Since he is involved in a sport where both my kids and other members of my family are involved as participants and coaches, there is always a chance that he could accidently bump into any of them. I have "suggested" that in the event this accidental bump ever occurs that he find a quick exit with not even modest conversation at the risk of losing his fingers if I find out. To date, he has honored this boundary as far as I know.

Problem with these messy affairs is that they impact way more than the fantasy partners ever dream. They think that their little fantasy world only impacts them in search of their escape, soul mate, whatever and that no one will get hurt in the process. In reality, almost always in recovering from an A, there are activities, jobs, and other friends and contacts that everyone loses if the recovery is to be successful. In my case, both of my kids are competitive in the activity on an national level. My FWW's brothers are involved in that activity as coaches, etc and known on an international level. The OM used to be a coach and where the A started was at one of these events. Although I never participated in this activity, I used to love it as a spectator. My W's choice to pursue this A and the subsequent fallout has had serious consequences. I no longer enjoy the sport as much as a spectator because it is too much of a trigger. The OM cannot even get a job coaching in the sport because...well I won't get into that but let's just say that I had my revenge, right or wrong. Unfortunately, my kids who are now both in high school and most likely will be able to compete in college in this activity but don't know about the A do know that something is different now after D-Day in that I am unable or unwilling to take them to see competitions that i used to really enjoy both taking them too and also being a spectator. But, the most important thing to me was my personal recovery first and then trying to rebuild my marriage. Both have made significant progress, but many things in our lives have changed as a result of my wife's poor choice. We have both been able to deal with what we have lost but it is a long uphill battle.

Next time your wife makes a comment that she likes her job and doesn't want to move, I might respond as simply as "unfortunately you made your bed, you have to lie in it. I liked your job too but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are serious about recovering our marriage, a new job, maybe even a new city...is not negotiable."

NT

The one thing I've learned and am having problems with because of the hurt I am feeling, is to remember that you cannot, no, must not beat your wife to death with feeding her things constantly about working on the marriage. She will tire of hearing about it start "running". If you constantly pressure her, she will resent you, and give herself more cause for justification of her actions.

Also, you must remember to take care of yourself. Eat right, get to know Jesus, and keep a good physical and emotional appearance, despite how hard it might be.

Another good resource for you, go to these links and listen to these carefully:
http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Turning_Point/archives.asp?bcd=6/7/2006

http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Turning_Point/archives.asp?bcd=6/8/2006

God bless you.

Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself. Thanks for stopping me from doing something foolish. I guess patience is a virtue I could use right about now...gotta work on that.