That's what I thought.

I would still like to hear from someone who has had this actually blow up in their face and what happened though. Anyone?

I'm curious as well.

I'm trying to remember if anyone who had been able to rationalize not telling the OPS actually DID maintain NC or recover or was willing to expose with the A in the distant past when they had been unwilling to expose when it was active....no one comes to mind.

Huh? where? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I've never once said that exposure to the OPS is "sooooooooo damaging" and in fact consistently recommend it almost every day. You are very confused bigk. We're specifically talking about exposing years after the affair has already ended....I doubt you're likely to find much of an "ally" in the OPS after that much time has passed....it's another reason I tell folks NOT to wait to expose....strike while the iron is hot....don't wait for everything to go cold and then reignite the conflict....it's better for all concerned if you do it when the affair is ongoing.

I guess star it's statements like that one. And No. I am not confused - not even a little bit.

And this one.

I think your opinion is pretty clear actually.

Sorry for singling you out but I see that type of rationalisation all the time for silence and really, honestly, wonder where the evidence is to back up this so called damage.

Still waiting......

And more Star.

So I really just want to see some real examples of this "damage" Because I see this type of statement from many people here all the time as justification for not telling OP's Spouse.

And I do understand Star*fish that we are talking about exposure years later in case you think I still don't get it.

It's not hard to find people here who never recommend exposure to OP'sS at all (And I am not saying you are one of them BTW) It's also pretty easy to find clergymen who recommend not telling even the BS about an affair. I myself, have found clergymen pretty inept at dealing with adultery at all so I guess that's not too surprising.

And Star in your first post on this thread you attempt to undermine people who promote always exposing to OP'sS regardless of the elapsed time by indicating somehow that it's an either/or choice between Marriage Building and Morality - IT ISN'T and again referring to mixed results - where is the evidence for this statement?

bigk,

I didn't see any of this last night....so sorry about the delay in responding. This thread is about exposing an affair <years> after it's over, and you've completely ignored the countless threads where I've recommended exposure. I think there are some real benefits to doing it quickly and during an ongoing affair....and yes, I think there are some disadvantages to doing years after an affair. bigk....I'm entitled to say that and discuss that even if YOU think it's always the best thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MB strategies like exposure have a purpose....and the purpose of this strategy is to open the affair up to scrutiny, blow the roof off of the secrecy and create accountability on the other end.

The moral issue....of letting the OPS know what their spouse is doing....is something that's important to me and to many others....but it's a separate issue from the MB plan because it's about conscience/morality rather than part of the marriage building strategy. I'm not saying it doesn't work WITH the MB program, because I believe it almost always does....but more so in the beginning rather than years after the fact.

It's an honorable motive....but it's not really about marriage building....it's about personal integrity and living authentically. Even though it's a moral issue......and YES, I do most certainly think the other person has a right to know....when it's done during an ongoing affair....it very much helps the strategy to end the affair.....later on, when an affair is long over....it still may have some benefits, but it also has more drawbacks than if done early (I'll talk a little about what I mean later).

I'm trying to be honest about that....and it's not because I want to "undermine" anyone....it's because I think there are some legitimate concerns about late exposure and that people have a right to discuss those too without being insulted or vilified. The purpose of this forum is to "discuss" issues....do you really think everyone will agree on every detail? You don't agree with everything I say bigk....but I don't attack you for it.

But let me get back to your questions about why I see late exposure as having more risks and why it can even occassionally create more harm than good. (AGAIN....I never said it was "damaging" that's YOUR word that you've attempted to put in MY mouth.) Maybe if I explain where some of my thoughts are going....you won't feel as though I'm attempting to "undermine" anyone.

Strictly in terms of morality and ethics....*I* would want and NEED to tell an unknowing OPS. That would be important to me in terms of my own authenticity. I would do it EARLY to avoid confusion, keep it from undermining RECOVERY in both marriages, and give the OPS a chance to fight for their own marriage WHILE the affair was ongoing....just like I was doing! I would treat them like *I* wanted to be treated....so I'd give them that information as early as possible!!

So let me compare for a moment the possible difference between early and late exposure.....some of the pros and cons of each and why I have more concerns about a late exposure.

Purpose:

*In early exposure....telling the other spouse gives them the knowledge they need to fight for their own marriage. It puts pressure on the affair from the other end. It creates a potential ally (not always, but more often) in the other spouse. It clears my own moral conscience about the other spouse not knowing the harm being done to them. Even though it may be disruptive for the other marriage, the affair is already disruptive and damaging to the OPS and the children....the risk is outweighed by the potential good and the ability to work on the marriage if the goal of ending the affair is reached.

*With late exposure.....I still get to clear my moral conscience and let the other spouse know the truth about their unfaithful spouse. However, since the affair is long over, the other spouse has missed the opportunity to put pressure on the affair when it was ongoing, and the while the knowledge may still be helpful (in case the OP is a serial cheater) it may also take that marriage out of any recovery it may have made and back into crisis (not really where I want it to be). The OPS is unlikely to be much of an ally after many years because there is no longer a common purpose between the two BSs. The disruption it causes to the other marriage....is no longer about about a current threat....it's still an ugly secret that can undermine intimacy....it's exposes a past threat that the OPS is powerless to change...they can only hurt. The OP can claim it's "ancient history" rather than having to take the full brunt of his own actions so long after the fact.

Motive:

With early exposure....When you call an OPS and say "your husband and my wife are having an affair" it's done at a time when most people would most want to know, it creates a common purpose between the BSs, and usually an ally to fight the affair. Very few people are going to ask you...."why are you telling me this?" or assume your real motive might just be revenge or harm....because they know you're hurting as badly as they are....YOU ARE IN THE SAME PLACE. That gives you not just common purpose....but shared pain and understanding.

*With late exposure......motives are not nearly as clear. The affair is over, so the OPS can't impact that dynamic. Instead of talking to a fellow sufferer....they're talking to someone who has saved their marriage....and now it can easily look like you're just trying to destroy someone else's to clear their conscience. There will definitely be many people who appreciate the truth even long after the affair....especially those who have continued to have big problems....but for those whose marriages appear to be back on track....they might not be very appreciative and may question your motives big time. One day, out of the blue, you call up and clear your conscience? "Gee thanks, but who the h*ll ARE you?....hope you feel better now that your conscience is clear....but you've just destroyed my whole life. Why didn't you tell me sooner??? Why did you wait??? What do you hope to gain now?? Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy for your poor conscience, because you've been sitting on this information and letting me be in the dark for YEARS".

Squirm room:

With early exposure.....The OPS has the resources to verify what you claim. If it's ongoing, they have cell records, emails....all kinds of stuff that make it very difficult for the WS to accuse you of lying, minimize the affair or any much squirm room. At that time, the OPS can insist on the accountability necessary to ensure no contact or relapses and that helps BOTH marriages.

With late exposure: There's been plenty of time for the OP to cover their tracks, and it's hard to research the truth of something after many years. That gives the OP room to lie and convince their OPS that you're just some crazy psycho. The idea that late exposure will finally create honesty in that other marriage is not certain at ALL!....because the OPS may not be able to prove the truth after so much time. You are a stranger to that person....so without the kind of verification that is possible during an ongoing affair....your late exposure may simply cause conflict with NO resolution, no truth, no accountability and no benefit.

Morality:

With early exposure....the moral issue is clear and less complicated by OTHER moral issues that arise too and can seem equally as troublesome. There is no question that you have a responsibility to tell this other person....that moral issue doesn't change. Yes, it may create conflict over there....but even if the OPS has no idea it's going on....that family is ALREADY suffering usually from neglect, loss of time, betrayal, dishonesty, incompatibility, and often a lack of intimacy. The morality of telling.....has the added benefit of helping MB strategies to remove those obstacles to rebuilding the marriage. Chances are....the children involved are already feeling the effects of conflict and crisis in that other home....and even if they aren't....it's better that the husband and wife, have a chance to stabilize and rebuild that other marriage so that the family remains intact even if it causes some initial conflict to do. Affairs are a threat to families....but no time is greater than during an ongoing affair.....so that's the best time for exposure when it has the potential to do the most GOOD.

With late exposure.....The moral issues are compounded. Instead of clarity...it's often a time of anxiety/guilt that drives a person to expose the affair so long after the fact rather than the strong moral purpose of helping that marriage as much as your own. The purpose is often to clear one's own conscience....but sometimes it can nag them about the other moral considerations too. For instance, often the BS has no idea about the condition of the other marriage. Just like the original poster of this thread....there can be worry and moral questions about throwing the children in the other marriage BACK into conflict if the marriage is doing well since they are innocents in this fight. If the marriage is doing badly....there is the moral question about whether this will may add to the suffering of other children without any benefit at all to the other marriage. It's much harder to really know after so many years....and so some people may find themselves weighing the value of clearing their conscience against the value of creating conflict that will undermine the stability of the other marriage, or add to the unstability. It's not unusual to be really confused about whether the issue is one of morality or a selfish desire to feel like you did the "right" thing at the expense of someone else....which can ALSO appear to be a "moral" quandary. Aside from that....it does nothing to assauge the guilt of waiting all that time to do it....it's never going to really clear your conscience anyway because you witheld that information for so long. Prevention is worth a pound of cure....don't withold the information in the FIRST place!

Recovery:

With early exposure.....Motives are far clearer to everyone involved when it's done during the ongoing affair. The OPS understands why you've called. The WS may not like it....but it's not really confusing either. The BS knows it's the "right" thing as well as the "smart" thing to do. The BS knows that until the affair is over....recovery is not possible.

With late exposure.....Either or both marriages can move out of recovery and stability and into conflict and crisis over the renewed feelings and arguments that surround reliving an old affair. A BS who has worked hard to rebuild their marriage....may suddenly become refocussed on and retriggered by the affair, rather than focussed on recovery and healing. The WS who has ended contact, and recommitted himself to the marriage....may feel as though his past trangressions are being paraded out again to hurt him and punish him. The OP will almost certainly think this is strictly designed to hurt their marriage and may be able to convince the OPS of that too. Since betrayal hurts just as much whether it's one day, one year, or 10 years ago.....the other marriage will be in the "just found out" stage. I personally, would not want the other marriage to be vulnerable or in conflict without determining how big of a risk the OP may still be to my own marriage. I would want that marriage to be as stable as possible so it isn't a future threat to either my...or other marriages.

Contact:

With early exposure.....contact already exists. Exposing the affair has the effect of ending contact NOT renewing it.

With late exposure....there is recontact. Recontact in any form is always a risk....no matter who is doing the contact. It takes a long time to get through withdrawal and stop thinking about an affair partner....late exposure....renews thoughts, fantasies, questions....and contact.

So these are my thoughts. Obviously....not every late exposure carries the same risks....but I have honestly have concerns about being "always" the best thing to do. I think it's definitely questionable as a marriage building strategy. Even from a moral standpoint....there are some valid questions for some people about the other moral issues it raises. This is why I say....AVOID the potential confusion later!! DO IT NOW. If you don't do it now....it's only going to get scarier and harder. However, if you find yourself somewhere down the line wondering whether you should or should not....these are the things that you're likely to encounter so be prepared to deal with any fallout.

Hope that helps.

bumping for bigk

Regarding exposing to OP’s spouse long after the affair has ended:

Aside from all the ethical and moral arguments pro and con, I have to say, in the past 2 years, at least, reading here on MB the reality is I cannot remember any case where it actually blew up in anyone’s face (well, hopefully it did in the face and all over the body of the original OP.)

This arises as an issue relevant to a specific situation here now and then, but not often. Maybe a dozen times since I have been reading here. Of the even smaller subset of these cases where latent exposure was in fact done there are no reports whatsoever of collateral damage.

This whole issue may be moot. A red herring, perhaps. Angels on pinheads.

I think someone should start a poll and ask if latent exposure to OP’s spouse turned out badly.

With prayers,

ed: In my case it was a six month delay, but it turned out very well. Actually, it was a 5 ½ year lag after D-Day 1. So all I can say is: yes, exposure to OP spouse breaks up even a highly entangled LTA and ensures continued protection no matter how long of a delay. And, OP’s BW was very grateful to boot. Better late than never, IMO. My only regret is that this exposure was via an anonymous third party instead of me. Still don't know who it was either. I'd like to shake his/her hand.

Aph,

I agree. The only possible relevency it may have at all (since late exposure is so uncommon) is to help people recognize the benefits of exposing early rather than ever having to worry about it at some future date. However, it's notable that thisthread began with someone struggling with late exposure....so it's not quite a red herring either. It doesn't happen often....but that's the question that was being addressed.

“However, it's notable that this thread began with someone struggling with late exposure....so it's not quite a red herring either.”

I meant delayed exposure to OP’s spouse turning out badly. Claims that long delayed exposure causes unfixable problems for the exposing BS smells fishy. I don’t think it has ever turned out badly for the exposing BS. No record of it, anyway.

Aph,

The fact that most people leave here after recovery or the end of a marriage, and the small percentage of those folks who are considering late exposure and are still posting may be so small....I don't know whether we'll get much of a sample here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I hope anybody who does have direct experience will respond though....that would very helpful.

Aph.....I didn't see the part of your post that you editted until now. I noticed that you didn't expose to the OPS....you don't know who did....what do you think kept you from exposing? Can you see any benefit from the exposure coming from someone without a dog in the fight? Did you struggle with the moral issue of letting the other person know what you knew?

I'm doing a search on Recovery to see if I can find people who exposed late....and there are very few. I found one that didn't have good results...but I want to find some who did so that I can present a balanced sample. It's not an easy search but seems to me that the R board is a good place to find stories about exposure after recovery.

Star - Only just switched on - not ignoring you!

Thanks for your response.

I am well aware that we are talking about exposure years later. I never suggested or intended to suggest you do not advocate exposure to OP's spouse at all. But I guess I am examining the claimed dangers of late exposure.

As Alph said - I don't think there are any.

My position is pretty simple - if the other WS hasn't exposed to their BS, they may be a serial cheater, or their marriage may be progressing along in a ditch or happily regardless. I have however read enough material about the effects of secrecy or this type particularly in a marriage long term and the cost to the marriage in intimacy. I simply cannot see any valid reason for that not being exposed to the other BS. Sooner is god, best. Later is better than not at all.

I am not in the least concerned with motives.

I don't think truth and making ammends has a use by date.

But I am really sick of seeing posts warning about the dangers. I found 3 of your posts, quoted on this thread, talking about that. And what I really want to hear is from someone who has experienced these touted problems - simply because I think the number is small or zero.

Star - I agree with most of this - of course earlier is better. I do disagree however that The marriage is already in crisis - unfortunately the other BS knows it's in crisis but doesn't know why.


I, personally would always want to know. Marriages supposedly on-track are an illusion IMO. I don't disagree with your thoughts.

Star - I could comment further but we really don't disagree at all I think.


I agree with that too.

However, my major question relates to real world people who have exposed late who have experienced these ill effects. I would really like to hear from them.

Warnings about the dangers or whatever words you would prefer I used onlt sway and give people an excuse IMO so I would really like some real cases where these dangers have been experienced. Otherwise statements just get repeated over and over without a scrutiny and before you know it they are "fact"

and finally Star, if you are having difficulty tracking down cases of these mixed results, I wonder how you came to that conclusion in the first place?

bigk,

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you.....I've had company all weekend.


I really do understand your concerns that talking about these things.....you think it could possibly discourage folks from exposing....but it sure doesn't give people very much credit. Must we really refrain from looking at the individual applications of these strategies for fear that people will be led astray....like sheep instead of individuals? There were lots of opinions on this thread....is mine really so dangerous or any more dangerous than anyone else's? I do believe that one of the strengths of MB is that there are many different opinions, perspectives, styles etc. which gives people a chance to look at these issues from all sides....and hear more than ONE perspective on Harley principles.
I think where we might be missing each other a bit is that I'm not making an attempt at all to keep someone whose interested in exposing 5 and 10 years down the road...that's a choice only they can make. The reality (as Aph/you suggests and I agree!)is that the people in that situation (posting on MB) are going to be a miniscule percentage of the people who will be facing exposure. The important message here is for the <large> percentage of people to understand the benefits of exposing EARLY....because those folks will be plentiful and the ones we need to reach the most. Do you not agree that early exposure is preferable? If you agree it's preferable....why? I have been talking about the "why" I think so....and I don't think that undermines the general idea of exposure.

I know you'd rather that I just said "exposing to the OPS is always the right thing to do <for everybody> no matter what the timing". [/b]I [/b]would always want to know too bigk....and so *I* would always tell the OPS...sooner, later, always.....because I believe in treating others the way I would like to be treated...that's about living authentically and it's something I encourage everyone to do. So it would be easy for me to tell people that they ALWAYS have to tell the OPS because that is in keeping with my own thoughts/beliefs/moral standards....but I'm not living their life and I don't have to live with their choices...they do. I respect people's right to choose for themselves even if they choose a path that I find doesn't meet my moral standards.

Calling someone immoral/bad because they decide years down the road that exposure is just not for them....is not the authentic me either....it's just not. I can be empathetic without agreeing with their personal choices, and in that instance....I would have chosen differently and exposed in the first place.

It's not enough for you that I agree....I have to agree to tell everyone what they "must" do or I'm subversive, right?


If folks decide that the opinions on this site....mine, yours or anyones....are FACT...that's nobody's fault but theirs. Do you take every one's opinions that way here? Did I sway YOU? Do you think other people are "weaker" than you and more likely to be swayed? You can "sway" just as well as I can....I've not got some superpowers to make my words carry more weight than yours. So disagree!! Present logical arguments, influence people to do exposure as you think is best. Instead, you just expend your energy getting angry about mine. I took the time to present my thoughts....not as fact....but as articulately and clearly as I could. Why is that so threatening? Because I don't always agree? Yikes!! We agree on most of this....but if I don't agree with every single detail....am I really a rotten apple whose going to spoil the whole barrel?

bigk....if these strategies won't hold up to a little bit of discussion and debate about them....then how good are they really anyway?

I think I really do understand your point....and I appreciate it. I'll be careful to keep from misleading anyone....does that help?

Thanks for taking the time to respond Star. I hope you did have a nice weekend.


Definitely not. I would not silence anyone from expressing a view. But we should indeed critically examine some ideas that seem to have no basis in fact.

It is a fact that Harley says the other BS should always be told as should children.


Not at all and I really should not have singled you out - it was just that you expressed the view multiple times in this very thread. I have seen the same mantra pushed by others.


Well Star - That's exactly what I thought we were doing.

But can we be quite clear that you formed your view without any evidence about the problems you describe?