Coles notes verson of yesterday...

I am still looking for a new job/career. I have Executive experience but no degree to back it up... so I am getting over qualified and under qualified from prospective jobs.

I don't mind taking a lesser paying job and starting down the chain... but we need a certain salary to maintain our current lifestyle and keep our house. Again, I don't mind moving but my W does not want to... we moved twice in the last 2 years... doesn't want to move again.

Yesterday, the topic came up again... started into an argument but I refused to get upset. I continued to say that what I want is to be able to discuss it... I am not pushing for any one result. She left the room upset at one point... I didn't chase her but she eventually came back to talk some more. I am not looking to move yet... but I want her to be in "enthusiastic" agreement that we will if we have to. No enthusiasm yet, but she did say we will move if we have to.

My W was very depressed yesterday. We talked for a couple of hours without much interuption from the kids. She still feels like I am settling and that she doesn't know if she can give any more than she is. We talked for a while about her past. She has had to see her "father" a couple of times this week and that brings up a lot of bad memories.

In another thread I was following it talked about a WS not there for the kids... in my W's case, it was her Mom who was there for her even though her Mom left her M for a new A marriage. Her father had previous A's, was verbally abusive to his W and kids, suicidal... and when the M broke up, he used the kids as weapons against his W. My W, as a 13 year old felt she had to give an ultimatum to her father... to stop putting her Mom down in front of her if he wanted to see her still. Her Father stopped the car and told her to get out. She hasn't spent much time with him since.

Years later, she found it this was not her biological father... she was happy about that... but torn apart again when her biological father refused to acknowledge her and her twin sister.

My MIL also married again and the stepfather was abusive verbally to the girls. He was better before he died of cancer, but a hard teenage life for my W. Last year while during her A, her boss was very dissappointing... cold and difficult to work with. And then her A partner said mean things about her after they broke up.

She held me yesterday and thanked me for not being like all the rest of the men in her life.

She thinks she is "messed up" from her past. She took medication for the first time in months yesterday. She never wanted to be on it but now thinks she has to.

Later, we talked some more. I read on the recovery forum about an Oprah show... my W's favorite. I ran to the tv to see if we could get it still to watch... about marital infidelity... but was too late. When we talked, my W mentioned... "It was an interesting Oprah show today"... I didn't know she saw it. (someone was looking out for me) She found it hard to watch but did anyway. She initiated some conversation about the A for the first time in a long time.

She said that she does not ever think good thoughts about OM and hasn't since shortly after ending it. I was relieved to hear this. It was a question I was afraid to ask because I realize it is normal to still fantasize but I didn't know how I would react. Oprah talked about it being a fantasy and my W agreed. We didn't get further because, of course, my kids came up to interupt.

A couple of days ago, she passingly made a comment about feeling like she is a piece of meat. I asked about this yesterday as I was hurt by it. It was a comment she made to me while in her A a year ago... and I have been extremely careful to be respectful of her body and her...SF is rare in our house and most cuddling is done without roaming hands. She said she was mostly joking but still feels that way sometimes... finds it difficult to be touched. Going to bed last night, I was going to sleep without touching, but she pulled my arm over her.

During the day we talked about the relationship. I asked if she still wanted to be together. She questioned why I was asking...did I want to leave. I talked to her about the lighthouse... that I was there to stay. The only way I would leave is if she honestly felt she could be a better person on her own. She said that I could be... I said no... that learning to be patient, to have unconditional love... to be her Husband made me a better person. I am not always happy... but I am better.

We talked briefly about my triggers... that I still get them all the time, but generally they are not followed with strong emotion. Most days I am not upset or sad... but I do remember. She is afraid that this will always be there. She knows how much she has damaged our life... both of us had to leave our jobs (mine was one I was in for 18 years), we are leaving our church, friends have been lost, etc. I just told her that it will get better. I don't think she believes me at this point.

She said it was such a bad day. I said that a day like that gives me hope... when she can talk to me about the A, I have hope for the future. She lauged and said on a day when she has no hope is the time when I have hope.

There was much more that was said, but I believe I got the important parts down.

A good day or bad...

I'm thinking good.

BTW,,, I am waiting to hear about a 3rd interview with a company. This company was the primary competitor for the company I worked 18 years with. I feel strange about this, but right now any income will do. Later, I can choose to find a new job if it isn't the right fit. Say some prayers for me that I get the job.

I'm finding the whole interview thing difficult. I worked with the same company so long, I never really had to interview for jobs in my life. I'm a pretty humble guy (definitely not from Texas <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) and learning to sell myself has not been fun.

Shaden

Shaden, can you POJA something that is out of your control? If you can't afford the house, that is not a matter of POJA but a mattter of REALITY that must be faced. She might not have a choice in the matter unless she wants to get a full time job and supplement your income. Is she willing to do that?



Listen here, you silly foreigner, we Texans are the MOST HUMBLE people on the North American continent!! Foreigners! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I do realize that this might come to not having any control... I just want her to realize this as well... to not be resentful over this. She has said she will get a full time job... only working PT right now. But I believe it is in our best interests if she only works PT... our MC had also suggested this. She says it's not about the size of the house or being materialistic... just right now the comfort. (We're not in a large house...nice, but average... but we already made one move in November to downsize after the A.) She doesn't think she can handle the stress of moving again right now... needs it to be her haven. She thinks it would be hard for the boys also... I disagree.

I have said that if we move I prefer it to be our decision... not the banks. I am also ok with "starting over", but that scares her. Her father pinched every penny and was mean about it. That was a big part of the arguements her parents had... which is normal. But from what I understand, he used it as a form of control. Eg... I heard about a time the night before Easter... leading up to it, he would not give any money to his W for her to buy a treat for the kids at Easter. Finally, the night before he said go get something... at about 10:00 at night. My MIL went out trying to find any store that was still open. I realize I am hearing one side of this story and this is a small example, but what I know of him this is a good example of his personality. He had an abusive childhood as well. My W has a hard time discussing budgets and financial responsibility.

I don't think I blame my W for our current financial situation... I blame my own weaknesses and trying to "buy her happiness" in the past. I will move if I have to, but my first choice is that it is a joint decision... or that we come up with other solutions together.

And you're right, Mel... there ain't anyone better at being humble than you Texans. Noone can beat you in that regard.

Shaden

Which is exactly why it is important that you both face the reality of your financial situation like big kids. Because if you don't, the bank WILL make that decision for you. In America, the sherrif helps in this decision making process also when folks don't pay their mortgages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why not ask her what her ideas are on ways to afford the house? If she had a part in the problem solving, she might be more involved here instead of taking unrealistic stances. Just saying "I DON'T WANNA MOVE!!" is not a solution. That is a FIT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Since she is a big girl, what ideas could she come up with to resolve the problem? I would ask her that and get her more involved so she feels like a partner.

Mel... That is exactly what I am saying I am trying to do. In the past when I have brought it up, she has refused to discuss it. My point is that I want to discuss it with her and come up with solutions together...NOT to make the decision on my own. I want this to be a partnership... and for her to take responsibility for reality not live in a fantasy. Thus I am trying to POJA.

The financial situation is not desperate yet. The issue here also surrounds what type of job I get. In order to maintain the house, I need a certain salary level... which drastically decreases my options for jobs. This decision is also about my happiness... being able to choose a new career that I am happy with as opposed to just finding a job that makes enough money. I believe one of my W's EN's is for me to financially support my family. This is a conflict on different levels. I have not hidden this fact from the discussion... and she has said more than I that I should be taking this opportunity to finally get a career I love. But won't back this up with "we'll be fine with whatever you decide".

Shaden

On another fine thread, I read advice about a difficult POJA topic... to POJA the final outcome first... and then to figure out how to get there. That is how I normally manage and what I've tried to do with my W.

We both agree that we do not want to be financial burdens on our children come retirement age (her Mom has no money and is looking like it will be a financial burden in the future).

We both agree that we want to have freedom to travel in the future and to assist with our kids education.

We have started discussing these topics... but in order to do so, some major changes have to happen now. This is a logical step but a difficult one when you are used to certain things. It is pretty easy for me... most of my spending has been tied emotionally to supporting and making my family happy... very irresponsible at times. But I am fine personally with little.

Creating change in any situation can be difficult. I realize that if I just make the decisions... even if they are obvious to me, it is controlling. I am trying to create an atmosphere of discussion and joint decision... before the choices are taken away from us.

BTW... this thread was intended to be about much more than our financial situation... but I still appreciate the input.

And I guess if I'm gonna make fun of Texans, then I deserve to be called a kid...

TJ here:
Mel, in a store the other day I saw a tank top that reminded me of you. In fact, I started laughing out loud. It said: Put on you big girl panties and deal with it!

TJ over

Shaden,
I know that financial concerns must put a strain on your marriage and may even give your esteem a few body blows. I agree with Melody Lane that if you can include your wife in the decision, brainstorm the problem together, consider all possible alternatives (sell house, second jobs, move, etc..) and discuss the pros and cons of each (not from positions) but based more on each of your interests (deeply held desires regarding family, parenting, marriage, friends, etc...).
Good luck. I will keep checking in to see how this goes.
Heartsore

Hi Shaden,

I have read quite a few of your posts, and have wanted to chime in a few times, but could never find the right words. You seem like such a dear man, and the way you have handled everything reminds me of my H.


Me too!! Here's why...

1. She's talking to you, opening up to you. Isn't this a relatively recent development?

2. Her raw pain. Maybe she thinks it was a bad day because it brought up a lot of painful stuff. And when you go through a day like that, it can be so overwhelming, you litterally feel like you're drowning. But if there's one thing I've learned through all of this -- it's that pain/fears/emotional wounds must be faced and WORKED THROUGH. There are no shortcuts. I have also noticed that, for me, there seems to be a cycle I repeat with my IC: The most painful sessions -- the ones during which I cry and cry and cry... and leave feeling drained and exhausted -- are ususally followed by some sort of breakthrough. So, IMO, your wife's pain right now is part of the process. And a sign of progress!!

3. Shaden: "She held me yesterday and thanked me for not being like all the rest of the men in her life." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



So I agree with you Shaden -- a difficult, but good, day indeed.

One other thing I want to comment on:



Is this a new revelation for her? Because, under the conditions you've described here, it would be a very rare bird who would grow up the way she did without some emotional wounds and scars. Big ones. Do you think she might go to IC?

I also watched Oprah's show on infidelity yesterday. (Funny, because I used to watch Oprah almost every day, but don't anymore because I'm home with my girls when it's on and don't want them exposed to most of the topics... but just happed to see it yesterday when I turned on the TV to check the weather... hmmmm... fate?)

ANYWAY...

I thought it was such a good show... full of valuable little nuggets of information and insight. I remember thinking how hard it might be for a BS to watch. But the part that really got to me as a FWS and a CSA survivor was when Dr. Robin was talking to the FWH and asked him who in his life had disrespected him... blown away his mind and heart... pulled the rug out from under him the way he had done to his family with his affair. And she told him that part of his responsibility in healing his marriage would be to heal himself.

I wonder if that part of the program is also rininging in your wife's ears?

Good luck with your next interview Shaden. And bless you for being the patient and compassionate person that you are.

--SC

Heartsore,

thanks for your input. I received a message yesterday about another interview for a position I thought was long gone. Still hope of finding the right job.

I liked what you said about discussing according to interests rather than position.

I am used to strategic planning and budgeting for work. We brainstorm, decide on the best course of action, and do it. Sometimes this meant cutting, other times growing. I am always very team oriented with decision making and believe "buy-in" or POJA is always the best method. I enjoyed this part of my job, so to easily want to discuss with my W is right up my alley. The difference with being the boss at work is I could call in the right staff and say we are going to brainstorm this problem.

I know that creating change is generally avoided when the change is perceived to be more difficult than status quo... and to move someone to change, I need to show the options are not so scary and difficult... or that status quo is scary. What I was saying in my original post here is that for the first time my W did sit down and discuss the move. We didn't get to talking about options the other day, but we talked about some of our fears and wants surrounding the move. This led to relationship talk and in the end, I felt it was a good day.

I was always in agreement with Mel in that this was something that had to be discussed. But it is a little more difficult to force someone into a discussion they don't want to have. Telling them they are behaving like a kid just doesn't work very well... atleast not if you want a civilized discussion. A couple of times in the past I did get "fine, put the house up for sale, that's what you want". I could have ran with that and said you agreed. But it was not enthusiastic and real agreement, it was a "fit" as Mel put it... a resistance to a difficult change. More than the decision (which of course is important), I want the value of the good discussion... which would include talking about needs, wants, dreams, etc.

I've said all of this to my W... but I think she is still focused on the fear of change and is paralyzed when it comes to talking about it. Afraid the outcome has already been decided... which it hasn't. I also think she is holding onto the fact and belief that I will get a good job and avoid this messy topic. But as I said earlier, the discussion for me is just as important as the decision.

Thanks for joining this discussion.

Shaden

Smartcookie,

Thanks for your words. You covered many of the things I was hoping for... encouragement and insight into what the day meant.

I would like to respond more but have to get ready for an appointment and my son is waiting for the computer. I'll get back to you later.

take care,

Shaden

Lots of good days recently... always mixed in with the occassional bad.

Just wanted to share the words on the Anniversary card my W gave me recently...

"To My Husband...

Because you let me know you completely...
because you are still a mystery.

Because you do not wish to change me...
Because you have changed me forever.

Because you see the good and true in me...
Because you forgive all else in me.

Because you gave me beautiful yesterdays...
Because you promise me beautiful tomorrows.

Because you asked for my hand,
Because I gave you my heart...

I love you.

Happy Anniversary,
All my love,
(FWW)"


My W, like most women, chooses the words on cards very carefully. Last year was a fairly generic card.

Heartsore... if you read this post, it has taken a while to get to this point... and still a lot further to go until I feel fully recovered. But a year ago, I was where you are at now. There is hope... be patient.

Shaden

Shaden,
I couldn't be happier for you! The card from your FWW says a lot about your progress in the marriage. I can only hope that on our next anniversary, my WW:

1) is still around
2) feels something more than bitterness and discontent
3) can see the beauty of our past and optimism for future

I'm sure that reading this card has made all of those terrible days, anxious days, insecure days seem worth the fight....

Couldn't happen to a nicer man!
Heartsore