that my husband will ever really love me again? Or that trust can be rebuilt? That we will be able to have a wonderful marriage- if we work on it?

Lately BH has been....dare I say it??...better. He finally said that he was not planning on leaving, although he's just hanging on by a thread (I asked him if he was in or out of our marriage, he said he was out except for an arm). he said I just have to accept that and to STOP talking about a D and going ad nauseum on about "are we staying together? are we not? what do you want? what will happen to us? do you want this to work?"

He talked about a date night at a nice restaurant yesterday, and had a BIG blowup at my son (his step-son), after which he apologized....and it's not that he never apologizes when he's wrong, it's just he was REALLY REALLY mad. And he got over it and saw his part in what happened and thought of a solution to have it not happen again.

But I have been reading Larrygeorge and darkclouds posts, and I kind of can relate to larry......not as bad, I hope, lol, but I'm feeling the "I'm not worthy" feeling a LOT lately. Like, "I suck, why would anyone as good as you, BS, ever want to take me back?"

You know what, though? To give myself credit, I am sticking up for myself a lot more now, not letting him run over me because "I deserve it." But I'm trying not to LB, and except for my needy whining, which I'm WORKING on, dang it, I'm doing better.

But Bs's, can you tell me why you decided it was worth it to try to make your marriage work? Did it start out being for the children then evolve? Or not evolve? Or becasue you felt that once the alien was taken out of your WS you could see the person you once loved and forgive the other?

I'd just like some insight and hope about why I can believe that eventually he'll forgive and I won't have irreparable damaged my marriage and family.

Because if you don't believe it he won't!!!!!

You see it is an easy way out to say "I know no matter what I do he will want a D or never love me again".

That gives you permission to not try.

Somewhat of a self fullfilling prophecy.

What your H is doing is normal. He will have his ups and downs. Things that now happen that didn't cause an uproar before might now.

As time goes by if you keep trying and doing what needs to be done he has a choice to make. Stay with you or leave.

Every BS has the right to walk out the door because of an A. So far he hasn't. He is lashing out a little and saying mean things. Keep them in context. Understand his pain may be causing anger. You may be the source of his pain therefore he may be lashing out at you.

This should start to subside after a while.

Keep doing the positive things and I am not saying be a doormat but please understand he is still hurting.

After D-Day, it, honestly, started as a desire to get my wife back because I love her. But in the early days it was so difficult and emotional that I had to shift to thinking of our children just to hang on somedays.

Over time, I regained sight of the goal of sealing the alien that had taken over her body in an airlock and blasting it into space. That's where I am right now -- getting through all the nasty and uncomfortable truths with counseling and helping her see me as someone she wants to stay with at any cost.

Your husband is still there. Cling to that and keep moving forward...

Best of luck.

“But BS's, can you tell me why you decided it was worth it to try to make your marriage work?

Did it start out being for the children then evolve?”

Yes.


“Or because you felt that once the alien was taken out of your WS you could see the person you once loved and forgive the other?”

No. When dealing with a VLTA with multiple D-Days, a BS needs to come to the realization of who they actually married after all. The BS needs to lovingly detach for as long as it takes.

Also:

A valid marriage is a covenant with God. Can’t void it, even in the worst of times.

Plan B. My LBank never became insolvent. Almost, but not quite. Still can’t write any major checks on it, but it’s open for business at least.

FWW met all my Plan B requirements, more or less, to return. I felt, and still feel, stronger in my resolve because I did not sell my affections on the cheap.

Forgiveness is a process. Love is a choice. Feelings have little to do with it at this stage, even 2 ½ years in.


Listen MrsR, you and H should establish some communications protocols. This will help prevent venting to each other and regretting some things said in the heat of the moment. Also important, having a set time to look forward to alleviates obsessing by either of you.

Set up a time every day at first and phasing to once a week to discuss the A and your M. And whatever is bugging either of you at the time.

Each of you pick one specific issue/topic and write your feelings down and exchanges them in advance. Then discuss for a limited amount of time. Say ½ hour. If not resolved to mutual satisfaction come back to it in a later session.

Light a candle in a private place, get comfortable, and share. Just establish a process and stick to it for a while.

I suggest you attend Retrouvaille for the details. It works.

http://www.retrouvaille.org/

One more thing: will your H come here to vent? Can't hurt.

With prayers,

Hurting Less, that is very insightful. "Well, if he won't guarantee that it will work, why even bother?" That is a crappy attitude, and I will work on getting over it.

Artor, he still says- yesterday or the day before in fact, that if it weren't for dbaby, he'd have divorced me in a heartbeat. My BH doesnt' care if I see him as someone who I want to stay with at all costs. He truly doesnt' right now. I asked him the other day if he understood that if we decided to make our marriage work, then he would have some things to work on. He said, "That may very well be, but all I can see right now is what you did, and until that is different I'm not working on anything. IT's all up to you."


Aphelion, love IS a choice! You are so wrong. I think it was Katie Mae? who said "love is a verb." And NOT doing something (LB-ing) is sometimes the action required. He does not want to talk about the A at all, unless he brings it up....and I'm okay with that. THere are no more details, and I have to allow him to say when he wants to talk about his feelings. BH won't come here, although lately he's acted like he read the LoveBusters book- in the way he reacted to my son. So maybe someday, but not right now, for sure.


He actually feels like, "she is no longer worth it."And I wonder why other BH don't feel that way? One of my problems is I get dramatic to get a reaction from BH (even before he was B) and that tends to send him running off into his cave (a little Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus, lol). It's like this EA was to see if he'd really divorce me? Obviously this wasn't the reason and in no way am I intending this to sound like I am blaming him in any way.

If he thinks I'm not worth it, what will change his mind?

You becoming worth it.

You see right after the A was the easist time to walk.

As you progress and as things do get better it becomes harder to walk out.

For me I never assumed I could find someone better then my FWW. The assumption I worked under was would my life be better without my FWW. No guarantee of finding someone better so why even put that into the equation.

So if you can make it so your H is better off with you in his life then you have a chance.

Focus on meeting his needs. If you really want an answer as to where you stand on him giving you a D it is easy to find. Has he filed? Has he acted on it? Or is he just saying it?

Until the day you get the papers he is still yours to win over. If there is a day you do get the papers you still have time until the D is final.

So until that day don't focus on that focus on giving him everything he needs to come to the decesion his life is better with you in it!!!!!

[color:"blue"]Why should I believe that my husband will ever really love me again? Or that trust can be rebuilt? That we will be able to have a wonderful marriage- if we work on it?
[/color]

because you vowed

for better and for worse

that's why

Pep

I can tell you it's worth it if you both want it! We are 16 months into recovery and our marriage is the best it's ever been. We both said we would not stay in it just for the kids because that wouldn't be fair to anyone. I didn't want to work it out with him until he decided I was the person he wanted to be with the rest of his life. If you both feel like that then your marriage can be worth all of the pain getting there.

I is so nice to see a guys side of it. The ole Mars, Venus thing is so true. I knew my husband wanted me a week into it but I wasn't sure I could get past the betrayal and the visions of him with the OW. I can say what helped me the most is he never waivered on loving me once he had decided he had made a huge mistake..and he never told me he didn't love me. Just remember that right now your wife needs constant validation from you that she's the one for you and you will be there for her recovery through good and bad..there will be a lot of both.Hanfg in there.

ALF, I am the wife, he's the BH, and he has the cave to prove it!!!!

Yesterday he told me that "the two things that pi$$ him off are me always asking about the R, if he's going to D me, and my sarcastic tone of voice that I get." He says I have a chip on my shoulder. I asked him if he ever was "out to get me" and he said that for every time I think that, there are 20 times that he is not, and I just think he is.

So the $1,000,000 question- how do I change this? How can I try to not get defensive when he does things that I misconstrue as mean and "out to get me?" I know how to change the talk about our R- that is to just shut up, which is easier said than done, lol.

He just says, he is here, that is all I get, to stop harassing him about it. So that I know what I can do to stop talking about our R, but the sarcasm and defensiveness? Harder to do. I'm so used to feeling like he's against me. This is a years and years thing, since waaaaay before my EA.

Any advice? I already started anti-depressants, but have been lax taking them the last couple of weeks, but even when I was taking them he said he didnt' see a difference (and he doesnt' know I'm taking them, he'd be FURIOUS!!). I just asked for a general "State of the Union" from him and he said he saw nothing different.

"Aphelion, love IS a choice! You are so wrong. I think it was Katie Mae? who said "love is a verb." '

Same thing. Choose to love. A verb. Feelings alone are usually wrong.

I still say you need Retrouvaille. It's made to order for both of you.

I have a question for you that you can ignore if you wish. It could be inflammatory. I don’t remember reading one way or the other in what you have written, but I may have missed it. Did your M start as an A?

With prayers,

Aphelon, no my M didn't start as an A. We are both divorced and were when we met online. I was in IA and he was in NC. And DUH- I meant to say you are so right!! about love being a choice, not wrong. Sorry, the ole brain is taking a beating at work...

I will look into this Retrouvaille, but he is soooo not into anything like counseling- he said he did it with his first wife, and she only went to one session, and he is not interested in it at all.

But who knows? I am working on thngs, read the LB book, starting on HN/HN. He won't take the EN quiz, I asked-although I need to find out where it is and take it "for" him, though I think I may put a bit of a spin on it, lol.

Work beckons....

ENQ: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf

Just print them out. You will need Acrobat reader.

MrsRob-

You ask:

One word...

COUNSELING

You both need to get to a GOOD marriage counselor, who is PRO-Marriage. The retroville suggestion is good, but it seems to me that you both need some 'long term' assistance in working through the aftermath of the affair, and especially in learning how to communicate now that your relationship is in crisis mode from the affair.

You don't understand his viewpoint...and he doesn't understand yours.

My wife and I went through EXACTLY this issue. And it took us two counselors to finally find one who could help us work through this. You need to find someone who UNDERSTANDS the damage to a marriage and to the communication in the marriage due to infidelity, and KNOWS HOW TO HELP.

Obviously, the Harley's would be ideal. But you can also look for one local to you, or one that your work's employee assistance program will help cover.

By finding a counselor to help us deal with exactly what you describe, we made it through this rough time. I credit our MC with saving our marriage in a lot of ways. This is what they're there for.

Thanks Aphelon. I'm printing them now.

Owl, he will not do counseling. Our bishop at church offered to even PAY for it, and he (the counselor) is definitely pro marriage- and MrRob will not do it at all. He even made the appointment and then cancelled it. I cannot bring it up without it leading to some LBing. So is there no other way? AND- I went to IC last October, before the EA was even a thought in my head, and he found out and ripped me apart- it was not nice. at all. anyway, so that is a non-starter. What to do in this case? He is NOT changing his mind. Maybe sometime in the future, never say never, but absolutely not now- not for us, and not for me.

MrsRob,

Love is a choice=True. You make a choice to take action, so love is an action/verb and so you must choose to take that action.

If he hasn't left by now he probably won't and every day that goes by makes it harder for him to justify leaving.

Your tone of voice is very important as is his, but right now we work on yours. You may not think your tone says anything or the opposite of what he is getting out of it. So you must work on that, listen when he says attitude or tone tells him you are being opposite of what you are relly meaning. Clue in on this and work on it. A subtle change in tone can and will make a big difference. Been there done that and paid Jennifer a ton of money to learn that (sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake LOL).

You are doing fine, it just takes time. Last Monday my FWW finally said LY over the phone and started occasiionally saying ILY. Now understand my D-Day was 14 Oct 05, do the math, it's been a while.

Lastly, MB does work, the timelines are fairly accurate, it just takes a lot more time than anyone wants to go through.

Hang in there, you and H are doing fine.

Hi Mrs. R,

Many FWS's would be very happy to get such clear directions from their BS. Why do you refuse to accept what he is saying? It seems as if you are deliberately antagonizing him. All you have to do is keep your mouth shut when you have the urge to ask these questions. Just stop it, OK? You are not helping recovery by deliberately doing things that irritate him.

You 'talking about a D and going ad nauseum about on about "are we staying together? etc.' is a HUB LB's, according to your H, so I have to questions your intentions here.

I'd say focus on meeting his top EN's and eliminating your LB's. Those are practical things YOU CAN DO. Please take care - Dru

Eagle- I am happy to hear about your FWW, and ILY. Yes, a long time in coming, for sure! I am working on it- and had a small victory today on the phone, we were talking about something and he was being kind of reticent, so I asked what was wrong. He said, "I really don't like talkign about important things over the phone." I USUALLY would have said, "well, we need to solve this so keep talking, buster." or something to that effect, lol. Instead I said, "That's fair. This is important to me, so if we can, could we try to solve this in the next couple of days?" He said sure. So this no LB thing probably works, lol.

Drucilla (pretty name, BTW)- you are right. I had an inkling these were pretty big LB's, but yesterday was the direct confirmation. Unfortunately, it is so hard to undo all the bad habits! And I know when I should just shut up and sometimes my mouth just disconnects from my brain and keeps going. I am proceeding forward with many "self-help" strategies and shutting my mouth is one of them. The reason I continue has been that I am so insecure in my situation- and have felt insecure in my marriage for years, really for no rational reason- and so I want him to reassure me like crazy. Getting desperate at times. I'm sure it's wearing. I just feel like he's just going to walk out- boom, like that. ANd I've felt that way since way before the EA. And it really is all in my head. MrRob has never done anything that would make me think he would. He has said some things in anger, but hey, join the club.

So I need to change that. And change is hard. But not impossible.

Have to agree with Dru. If you can't do anything else, you CAN do this.

And plan A on the other side of it...start doing things to take care of YOURSELF, so that you become a more attractive choice to him. Show him the YOU that he fell in love with and married.

sometimes I think the BS has to fight for both spouses, because the WS isn't capable at the time. you have to have enough love for the both of you.

thank you for sharing your story.

hugs