Nottoday, I don’t want to threadjack xzero’s thread, so I will respond to you here if you don't mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On xzero’s thread you’ve posted the following:

Nottoday, what you’ve said above concerns me and IMO, is a misconception many BS’s have and a gross generalization IMO. The truth is that not all people who develop a ‘spark’ or infatuation/attraction/’in love’ feelings towards a person of the opposite sex, willfully and/or intentionally and/or selfishly put themselves in a position where they can develop such feelings towards a person of the opposite sex. In fact, such feelings can develop unwittingly and even while there is no A or something inappropriate going on… And such feelings can happen to anyone (unselfish people included) and even before there is an A or relationship going on. IMO, only the moment a married person chooses to act on such feelings (whether it is physically, verbally etc.) the person became selfish and a WS IMO.

I want to illustrate my point by using the following letter from Dr Harley’s Q & A column[/u]:

[color:"blue"] Dear Dr. Harley,

I am female, 34 years old, and have been married 8 years. Lately, I have felt very ignored and restless in our relationship. I don't think my husband is aware of these feelings because I try to hide them, but they are in my heart. He buys me beautiful gifts and tries to give me his love and support. He has always been a very kind man, but he would rather watch TV and talk to our dog than talk with me. That's just the way he is.

Recently a man has come into my life that has rekindled feelings in me that have been dormant for a long time. I find myself thinking about him often and wish I could be with him. I feel so guilty and ashamed of these feelings, but nevertheless, they are there. I try not to think about him, but I do. I don't know if he feels the same way about me, but sometimes he looks at me in a way that gives me a signal that he might. Nothing has been said or done between us. I don't want to tell my husband about this because this man is my husband's best friend. There are things I can do to get closer to the "other man" if I will allow it to happen, but I'm afraid of the consequences. I feel I'm at a crossroads. I'm sure you've heard this type of story before. I would value your opinion. I cannot talk to anyone about this.

R.J.[/color]

Nottoday, as you can see in the letter above, R.J. had “fallen in love” with her H’s best friend even while there was nothing inappropriate said or done between them.

Dr Harley’s response on the above letter - especially pay attention to the parts I’ve put in bold:

[color:"blue"] Instead of posting my response to these two letters, I have decided to use their contents to illustrate how affairs begin. R. J. described the essential conditions for an affair quite well. First, there is usually a dissatisfaction with marriage that stems from the failure to meet an important emotional need. For R.J., her need is conversation, which is usually missing in marriage when women have affairs. She has a deep and pervasive need to talk to her husband, a need that all the gifts in the world cannot meet.

R.J.'s husband has demonstrated his care for her in many different ways. But he doesn't care for her in the way that would deposit the most love units. Because he has not met her need for conversation, she is vulnerable to an affair.

The best friend of R.J.'s husband (we'll call him Bob) didn't intend to meet her emotional needs whenever he talked to her. He was just being friendly, and carried on conversations the way he would with almost anyone. But whether he intended to or not, whenever he talked with her, he deposited scores of love units. After a while, he might have noticed how his conversations were effecting her, but I'm not sure he would have made much of it.

I'm also sure that R.J. did not intend to fall in love with Bob. Those feelings that he rekindled in her came as a surprise, and she is at a loss to know what to do about it. She knows that they are a risk to her marriage, and yet she feels compelled to draw ever closer to the object of her new love.

There are some who feel that those feelings of love are a signal from God to abandon past relationships and rush into this new relationship. But it's no signal from God. Instead, it's the way our emotions mindlessly encourage us to spend more time with those who meet our emotional needs. If we submitted to our emotions, and chased after anyone who at the moment deposited the most love units in our Love Banks, our lives would become chaotic in no time. And the lives of family and friends, to say nothing about our own lives, would be trashed.

The more sane way to approach unsuspected feelings of love toward those outside of marriage is to confront the problem honestly and intelligently. But R.J. did not want to appear to be an ungrateful complainer, so she violated the Policy of Radical Honesty. She did not reveal her true feelings to her husband so that they could resolve the crisis together.

It's true that in some marriages a spouse will complain about an unmet need, and find their complaint met with anger and recriminations. When there seems to be no hope for satisfaction, these people find themselves particularly vulnerable to an affair. After all, the spouse had a chance to meet the need, but refused. So why not have an affair?

But in R.J.'s case, and in many like her's, the spouse is given no opportunity to learn to meet the unmet need, because it is not clearly revealed.

So far, R.J. is not actually having an affair. She is simply drawn to Bob. He is attractive to her because he is so easy to talk to. Whenever they are together, he makes a special effort to converse with her, and he shows a genuine interest her favorite topics. The friends of good conversation prevail, and the enemies of good conversation are nowhere to be found (see the Q&A column, "What to Do When Your Conversation Becomes Boring and Unpleasant"). The pleasure of her conversation with him deposited so many love units that she fell in love with him, and so it's natural to assume that she will want to talk to him even more. She is finding it difficult to wait for the next opportunity to see him. If she wants to talk to him more often, she will need to create new ways to spend more time with him.

R.J. is now at a crossroads. She can take the next step in developing her relationship with her husband's friend, or she can explain her problem to her husband and try to resolve the issue with him. The advice I gave her was to tell her husband about the entire situation. He should be the one she enjoys talking to the most, and her feelings for his best friend was a good wake-up call. If her husband were to learn to meet her need for conversation, the temptation to have an affair with Bob would be much easier to handle.

But if she were to do what most people instinctively do, her next step would be to tell the man how she felt about him, and ask him to get together with her more often, privately. She would tell him precisely what she wrote in her letter to me, saying that he has "rekindled feelings in me that have been dormant for a long time. I find myself thinking about you often and wish I could be with you. I feel so guilty and ashamed of these feelings, but nevertheless, they are there. I try not to think about you, but I do."

Once this honest expression of feelings is out of the bag, an affair is off and running. Even if her husband's friend had never given her a single romantic thought, the seed is planted, and starts to grow. Such an admission would lead to his thinking long and hard about his own marriage, and he would start seeing R.J. in an entirely new way. If one of his important emotional needs was not being met in his marriage, he would express his frustration to R.J., and she would willingly agree to meet that need. The rest would be history.

Of course, it's possible that Bob, all along, was feeling the same way toward R.J. as she felt for him, and after her declaration of love for him, he would immediately reciprocate, fall into each other's arms, and run off to a motel together.

But it's more likely that they would simply talk to each other more often, depositing even more love units. Sex is actually not the driving force in most affairs -- it is conversation and affection. In fact, most people who have affairs regard the sex as a minor player. What they appreciate the most about the relationship is the love and acceptance that is communicated in their conversation. But sex is usually the inevitable outcome, and since sex works best with great conversation and affection, the sex is also great. Once sex is added to the mix, so many love units get deposited that the couple cannot imagine losing each other. They are both addicted to the relationship.

At the crossroads R.J. faces, she should avoid telling Bob how she feels about him at all costs. And she should certainly not let him know that she is dissatisfied with her husband. As soon as Bob would know about her feelings for him and her marital dissatisfaction, the risk of an affair would be so great that she must end her friendship with him for life. From the moment he knows she loves him, their friendship should end.

R.J. should be able to talk to someone about her marital problems. I'm glad she had the courage to write me. We should all be able to tell someone how we feel deep inside. But R.J. should not complain about her spouse to anyone unless she has made the same complaint to her spouse. Furthermore, the person she confides in should be either a same-sex friend or a professional counselor (like me). To tell an opposite-sex friend about your terrible marriage is to invite disaster.

R.J.'s greatest failure was dishonesty. If she had been honest with her husband about her need for conversation, and they had resolved the problem, Bob's conversations with her would not have been so enchanting.

The solution to R.J.'s problem at the time she wrote her letter is to follow the Rule of Honesty. She should write her husband the same letter she wrote me. He should know about the disaster that is about to take place so he can protect both himself and herself from it.

Then, I'm afraid, they must both distance themselves from Bob. Even though this man may not have any feelings for R.J., her feelings for him make him too dangerous to have as a friend, at least until they are able to improve their conversations with each other. If R.J. stops seeing and talking to Bob, the feelings she has for him will subside, but at first she may go through a period of withdrawal where she misses him terribly. Withdrawal usually only lasts a few weeks, with those feelings popping up once in a while after that. If her feelings for Bob eventually disappear, her husband can remain friends with him. But if R.J. finds that they reappear whenever they are together, they should plan to end their friendship with Bob.

This may seem very harsh and unrealistic, but the alternative to ending such a friendship is to create a huge risk of having an affair. And if Bob were to know how she feels about him, then they most certainly should end their friendship with him. [/color]

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

Suzet:

I almost missed your post. I am not around here all the time and so if ever again you want to have a discussion with me and I don't answer, please just bump until I do.

Suzet, first of all let me say that as a BS who works everyday with his FWW for both of us to recover our marriage, I have respect for any former waywards who have committed the effort to rebuild their marriage. I have also read many times your responses on different people's threads and believe you to be a genuine person whose opinion should be highly valued.

That being said, I will gladly engage in a discussion regarding the differences in PERCEPTION between a BS and a WS. I really don't think that if you read all mine and your posts that we are that far apart as far as our belief in the MB principles, etc. and I hope that further clarification of my statement will not only let you rest easier but also will be somewhat enlightening to both BS's and WS's who are closer to the betrayal and earlier in the recovery process than either you or me.

I said in the post that all waywards are innately selfish or they would have never put themselves in the position to begin with....or something to that effect. You have responded with some of the great letters from Dr. Harley that you feel like support your position. I don't disagree that they support your position but also think that a strong case could be made that they support my position as well, to wit;

Do many A start out very innocently and then at some point cross the line to an inappropriate relationship? IMO, most affairs start out that way. With the exception of a true exit affair where the wayward really just wants to get a head start on their new life, or where the wayward shows a repetitive behavior to engage in affairs, I would argue that at some point, probably almost all of the affairs whether emotional or physical start out somewhat innocently. I am not a women and not a former wayward but I have done a significant amount of research in this area including conversations with many FWW's (research for my book which is essentially a recovery guide for men) I think that the overwhelming majority of women who have an affair, NEVER believe that they will engage in an affair until after the affair is already full blown. Their needs for emotional fulfillment and other non-sexual EN's usually being at the top of the EN list, I believe that women are much less likely to just start illicit behavior from a biological design standpoint than men without first getting some of the EN's met by someone outside of the marriage and then have the EA or especially a PA just because it is the only way they feel they can continue to get those other needs met by the OP. In short, especially in a long term PA for women, often I believe the sex with OP is mearly a bad side effect of WS allowing her needs to be met by someone other than her spouse rather than a need for sex being the need met. I believe that Dr. Harley would see this exactly the same as evidenced by many of his responses to letters and other comments.

Secondly, although I rarely buy into the biological drive, the devil made me do it mentality that is often used by many less than repentant waywards, especially males, there is very little doubt that the attraction, infactuation, etc that is really the spark to take the possible appropriate relationship into an inappropriate relationship is enhanced by chemical changes in the body. Of particular importance in this regard is the levels of dopamine that occur in the body of those engaged in an affair, whether emotional or chemical. Dr. Harley does not spend a lot of effort addressing this change in body chemistry and I am neither an chemist or a medical doctor, but a search on the internet combining chemical, dopamine and affair will yeild plenty of support for this contention. Obviously, we cannot control our body chemistry and so a wayward could in fact argue that once the line was crossed, the devil i.e. body chemistry really did make him/her do it. I will answer why this is incorrect at the end of my post. I would suggest that this chemical change in affair partners supports your contention that a wayward is not innately selfish. If we were talking about less developed animals, this conversation would end and I would agree with you whole heartedly. But we are talking about humans who have the ability to reason and make choices and sometimes those choices are bad choices. Nothing to do with body chemistry, just faulty logic.

So getting to my point, if I accept that most relationships that turn into affairs start very innocently (at least with one of the A partners) and also that the relationship causes chemical changes in the body as the relationship develops from appropriate to inappropriate, how can I make the assertion that selfishness has anything to do with an affair, must less the decision to put one's self in a position to spark the relationship that COULD eventually turn inappropriate?? The answer, IMHO with all due respect to you, is that almost everyone has appropriate relationships with members of the other sex and depending on whose statistics you choose to believe somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3'rds of those people who have those same innocent relationships with people of the opposite sex NEVER allow that line to be crossed to turn into an inappropriate relationship. Why is this? Luck, different body chemistry, lack of motive or opportunity, or could it possibly be personal differences in each of our own mantra, e.g. selfish vs. unselfish, honest vs. dishonest, etc. and our ability to make CHOICES is all that seperates those who have an affair from those who do not have one.

Let me illustrate this by using myself as a probably typical example. Prior to and during my FWW's A, and to this day, each and every day, I am "attracted" to someone of the opposite sex. That attraction may be their physical appearance, the intellectual capacity, or just something like their accent, but the attraction is very real. Typically, that attraction causes a reaction from me. Often I seek them out for conversation, or they may become both mine and my wifes best friends, etc. but that attraction is real. Additionally quite often, I am attracted by mutual interests to a new friend of the same sex. There is no sexual attraction whatsoever (I am certifiably, very, very hetrosexual) but since I am married and I want to spend time with my new friend of the same sex to share our mutual interest, I hope that my W also has that same attraction to his spouse and vice versa...walla, a new friendship is born. But since we typically hang out with people who have characteristics similar to our own (physical attractiveness, mutual interests, socio economic status, etc.) every new same sex friend that I make has the potential for me to be attracted in a very sexual way to his spouse, especially since we have already laid the ground work between the M and OMW to have something in common to discuss and very likely in a purely innocent way if we both have kids, we may be at an event together as friends of opposite sex and discussing very personal issues because our families are very good friends. Throw in both people not getting their most emotional needs met by their spouse on a consistent basis and now we have the recipe for an A to begin. Did it begin innocently...absolutely. Could it end less than innocently, without doubt the board is full of sitches similar to this. Was the start of that innocent relationship due to that person being innately selfish? No, but either or both of those people not respecting the proper boundaries and allowing that relationship to cross the line is IMHO an innately selfish action. Why is it selfish??? Because once the boundaries are allowed to be crossed by either party, the other party has to opportunity to stop that from developing in it's tracks. At this point, is it harder to stop due to the innocence of the R up to this point and the body chemistry make that choice to stop it in its tracks even harder, without question. BUT, at that moment in time in order for that to take even one more step in the inappropriate direction, both of those involved have to make the very selfish choice that fulfilling their needs (regardless of whether those needs are for conversation, attention, sexual fulfillment, etc) are more important than the respect and duty to their spouse, children and other loved ones. This by definition is selfish...the act of putting ones own needs, desires, etc. ahead of others.

So to clarify my original post, do I agree with what Dr. Harley has to say about how that the start of the affair may be very innocent...absolutely, he is the expert and I am just a poor bugger who had to learn way more about a deplorable act than I ever wanted to know and more importantly had to learn how to truly love the sinner and hate the sin, how to replace hate and rage with compassion, and how to accept and forgive, not for the salvation of those who had wronged me but for my own salvation. Do I think in order to ever put yourself in a situation where that an affair could start you have to be innately selfish? Absolutely...that relationship is still very innocent until you allow it to cross the line and you can only allow it to cross the line if you are willing, if even just for a moment to put your own selfish needs in front of others.

In closing, we as humans are the most developed creatures that God has made. He has given us each different traits, personalities, etc. and we have continued to develop the race by utilizing heterosis to improve our lot. This is evidenced in every facet of life. Athletes are bigger and stronger, scientists are smarter, beauty queens are more beautiful. Most importantly, he gave us the ability to reason and to make choices...and by offering his only son for our sins...allowed us to still obtain salvation from judgement despite our poor choices and lack of reason. Our ability to reason and make those choices is why that the biological aspect including body chemistry and attraction to the opposite sex is not the reason why affairs occur. It prods us along the wrong path but our ability to make choices, whether right or wrong, is what differiates us from all other species. If you think about it, except for humans all other animals are on one end or the other of the spectrum when it comes to mating with others in our species. The Canadian goose is totally sexually monogamus (sp?). Once they chose their mate, they only mate with that particular animal for their entire life. Even if the mate dies an early death, their biological design does not allow them to find another mate. On the other hand, almost all other animals will mate with anything that will stand there long enough to be mated, regardless of how they look, where they came from, similarities or disimilarities in socio economic backgrounds etc. But humans ability to reason and make choices has caused us to seek for monogamy through committed relationships but our freedom to make those choices allows us to get outside the defined standard of committment and monogamy in order to satisfy our own selfish needs.

Suzet, I hope that my post and response to your concerns has not further distanced you from my thoughts as I truly believe that we are similar in thought process and motive. We both want to help others save their marriage through our own experiences. My posts whether to BS's or to WS are always intended to try and help them find "truths" and "answers" just as many others here did for me when I was a newbie. As BS's and WS's we all have different perceptions of many different things. Our discussion on those differences in perception can help others from both camps learn and understand. I do not write out of rage or anger at what my wife did when I say that her acts were innately selfish and her allowing herself to be put in that position was innately selfish. She made those choices and she owns that and she could not by definition made those choices without being innately selfish regardless of how innocent the first contact and all contact up to the point that the relationship became inappropriate was. For her to suggest otherwise, would suggest that she has not been able to accept the responsibility for those choices, and until full responsibility for all of our choices is accepted, we cannot find the honesty and intimacy in a new, renewed relationship that many of us have found post-A.

NT

Nottoday,

For now I just want to let you know that I’ve read your post and appreciate your thorough and explanatory post very much – thanks for the time you’ve taken to do this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> After I’ve read your post, I’ve realized that we don’t differ so much (or don’t differ at all) in our opinions about this topic and as you’ve said, are similar in thought process. I think the differences we still might have on this, is because of different perceptions and definitions on what exactly constitute the ‘spark’/attraction/infatuation/’in love’ feelings etc. between two people of the opposite sex in a relationship/interactions which have started out innocently and have not yet crossed boundaries into any inappropriate behavior.

I will send a full response as soon as I have time.

Thanks again for your time and candour! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings and take care,
Suzet

I agree that all waywards are innately selfish and that even former waywards were innately selfish…otherwise they would have not crossed boundaries into inappropriate behavior with the OP and engaged in EA and/or PA. During my friendship with OM I also crossed boundaries into inappropriate behavior and eventually EA, so that make me a FWS and mean that I was innately selfish too… However, if I would choose to not cross boundaries into inappropriate behavior and EA – in spite of the strong emotional attraction and romantic feelings I developed towards OM – this would not be the case and then I wouldn’t be defined as a WS and selfish person… Again, as I’ve said in my first post:

“…such feelings can develop unwittingly and even while there is no A or something inappropriate going on… And such feelings can happen to anyone (unselfish people included) and even before there is an A or relationship going on. IMO, only the moment a married person chooses to act on such feelings (whether it is physically, verbally etc.) the person became selfish and a WS IMO.”

Nottoday, the reason I’ve posted that letter and Dr. Harley’s response on it as an example to you, is to show you that there are cases where people can “fall in love” with a person of the opposite sex even while there is no A or something inappropriate going on… In that example, R.J. “fell in love” with Bob and had a strong temptation to engage in an A with him, but she reached out for Dr Harleys help before she has taken this step…which was a very unselfish act IMO. That the fact that a person can develop that “spark” towards a person of the other sex not necessarily means that the person is innately selfish…and the fact that a person can experience the temptation to get engaged in an A or do/say something inappropriate, isn’t inherently a sign of selfishness too… Such a person only become selfish if he/she gives in to the temptation, acts on the feelings and cross boundaries into inappropriate behavior. In other words, a person always have a choice to not act on inappropriate feelings or a temptation, but the fact that the feelings are there, doesn’t define a person as selfish up and until the point the person act on such feelings and practice inappropriate behavior. That was the main point I was trying to make with my first post.

I agree with this. The thread ”15 Steps Of Unfaithfulness” also explains this process well and how “adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.”

I 100% agree with you that such (to blame body chemistry for infidelity & wrongful behavior) is very faulty thinking and not true. I belief a person always have a choice…in spite of the body chemistry and “in love” feelings for the OP. A person might not be able to control and help for their feelings, but they can control their actions…in spite of the feelings.

IMO, a chemical change in a person due to “in love” feelings/attraction/infatuation he/she develops towards a person of the other sex doesn’t itself define or make a person as innately selfish (take R.J. in Dr Harley’s Q & A column for example). Such a chemical change in a person only becomes a problem and makes the person selfish if he/she acts on that feelings/change in body chemistry and engage in inappropriate behavior and/or A.

I understand what you’re saying…but again, IMO, a person is only selfish if he/she acts and give in to the temptation. As long as the line is not crossed into inappropriate behavior or inappropriate relationship/A, the person is not selfish…in spite of the inappropriate feelings or ‘spark’ which might be present.

Actually, you’re an perfect example here how an attraction to a person of the opposite sex isn’t a sign of selfishness, as long as you don’t act on that attraction and cross boundaries into inappropriate behavior. You can help for the attraction…you can’t control the attraction…and there is a ‘spark’ because of the attraction…but you can help and control your actions and not react on the attraction… This is the main difference here.

I agree with all of the above…especially the parts I’ve underlined. From this paragraph of yours, I could see that our thought process on this topic are actually the same and that we don’t really differ in our opinions on this.

Again, IMO, a person only have to be innately selfish to allow an attraction/infatuation/’spark’ to cross boundaries into inappropriate behavior. The fact that the attraction/infatuation/’spark’ itself exists or has developed without any inappropriate behavior, doesn’t mean that the person is innately selfish.

100% agree.

Very true.

Thanks nottoday, your posts did help to clear up some things for me and understand your view better now. As you said, we are similar in thought process.

I agree with this too. As I’ve said in the beginning of this post, I know I was innately selfish too…otherwise I would have not made the choice to engage in inappropriate behavior with the OM and let it escalated to an EA.

Thanks for the discussion nottoday – it was great having this conversation with you and should you want to respond and/or elaborate further on this topic – please feel free to do so! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet:

I had to reread both of our posts a couple of times and sometimes I forgot which one of us was which...lol, not really but I really believe that we see things very similarly.

I think that this discussion has/could be valuable for many on here as I believe from both perspectives it does show that we live in a very dangerous world where the temptation is great and there are many different forces that pull good people down the wrong road.

I guess that we can agree on this... the act of starting an inappropriate relationship is innately selfish once that the boundary from appropriate to inappropriate has been crossed. Those times that we allow ourselves to chose to keep that relationship appropriate especially if the forces are great pulling the wrong direction and we seek help through professional advice, prayer, radical honesty with our spouse,etc. is an innately unselfish act.

I think that is should be said as well that once the wayward for whatever reason has chosen to end the R and try to rebuild their marriage, that is an unselfish act as their personal needs could/were being met by the OP and they put others needs i.e. not hurting others anymore above their own needs.

We all have times in our lives where we are selfish and times where we are unselfish. Some people are designed to be on one side more than the other for whatever reason. And we all make bad choices...and those choices impact all of those around us...but we should not be defined by our bad choices but by our reactions to fix the products and consequences of our bad choices and by our willingness to accept responsibility for those choices.

Suzet, funny thing is that I really don't see you as a FWW (same could be said for SmartCookie, Mrs. W, KiwiJ and many, many others). Rather, I see you as a very brilliant person who has taken a bad situation and made some good out of it. I know you have helped many others on this site and I know that your heart is good right now. Does that change the fact that at one more confused time in your life that you made bad choices, nope...but IMPO...as is often the case, your bad choice and your choices on how to respond to that bad choice have made you a better person in the long run. I wish you the best and hope that our discussion has clarified for all that not only do you and I feel the same ways even though we may have different approaches to explaining those feelings but that we are both examples on different sides of the aisle that MB principles can and do work, not only for marital recovery but also for personal development and recovery.

NT

Nottoday, thanks so much for this kind, sincere and encouraging words…it means a lot to me and I appreciate it very much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know there are people on this board who don’t view me as a sincere person with a good heart anymore (after my “relapse” and massive e-mail exchanges with FOM more than 2 months ago) and this is especially why I appreciate your words so much and why it means so much to me… Thanks again… My H knows I’m inherently a sincere and good person who’ve made terrible mistakes and choices…but who’ve taken corrective steps and therefore not defined by those mistakes and choices anymore…and I believe this is part of the reason he has decided to forgive me and give me a second chance.

Also, like you, my H are aware of the fact that (as you’ve said) there are many different forces that can pull good people down the wrong road; that we all have times in our lives where we are selfish and times where we are unselfish...and that we all make bad choices...and that we should not be defined by our bad choices, but our reactions to fix the products and consequences of our bad choices and by our willingness to accept responsibility for those choices. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Take care and Blessings,
Suzet

S:

The initial mistake and the forces that pulled you back towards that mistake not so long ago are a perfect illustration why the extraordinary precautions both before a A starts and A recovering from one are necessary in all sucessful marriages. The potential to start down that slippery slope is present in all our lives and once gone down, as you have been a perfect example it is really easy for a relapse to occur.

Many of us have grown up thinking that this is something that only happens to "loose moraled" people. Time and time again this board shows that a staunchly religious person is really just as likely to have an A as the town slut. Obviously, morals and religious beliefs are not the primary protection against this. But unfortunately for you and others, many BS on this board and other places have hardened their heart with their rage and cannot see that this choice that you made NEVER made you a bad person and you NEVER had a bad heart, you just made a bad choice.

I said what I did about how I feel about you and others sincerely and despite my continued battle with the bitterness that all BS's endure. But I believe that my prayers for compassion to replace that hate and rage have allowed me to look at all waywards in a different light and to experience the teachings of Jesus in a way that would not have been possible had I not been on one side or the other of this ordeal.

Good must come of all things for those who intend good. Your continued sharing of insight and experience from the FWS perspective is invaluable for those who are trying to recover their own personal lives or even prevent them from going down the wrong road. We will never know how many people that are near that inflection point and one more step they cross the line that happen upon this board and are saved just in time. Since at that point all of the body chemistry, etc. that we have discussed is likely in full gear and the entitlement mode in engaged, they are much more likely to read your experiences and make the right choices than reading mine or any other BS. You should remember that and be proud of those whom you have helped in this regard.


One other thing that all BS's should remember on this board is that it is easy for us to stay around here. We didn't have a choice in the actions that our WS took and will always be treated here with kind of kid gloves. Waywards and FWS on the other hand often take the brunt of the rage of the BS who are battling the rage they have over thier own sitch but behind a computer is easier and safer to vent on other WS than their own. It takes a lot of guts for a WS to come on here and share their stories, take the crap that comes from every direction and ultimately make the journey to recovery that we all know is possible. It is pretty easy for a BS to project his/her rage on other WS even if they have made substantial efforts in making amends for their poor choices. A lot of good people who were once wayward (my FWW included) are unable to come around here and help others because their shame and guilt is just too great. The FWS who are on here have no less shame and guilt, but somehow they believe enough in their ability to help others that they weather the storm and take the punches that are often not deserved. When a WS comes on here deep in the fog and is rationalizing and justifying their actions, we all pounce on them...not out of hate but out of love because we know that we must exorcise the aliens out of them before they can start their personal and marital recovery. But when a recovered wayward gets pounced on only because of the rage of a BS and they continue to come back despite those punches, I have to believe that they have done some of their pennance and God's work.

NT

Absolutely agree… That’s why (on the other thread you started for xzero on the dangers of contact) I’ve given myself as an example on why any type of contact (even sporadic accidental contact with the OP) doesn’t work and is very dangerous for personal and marital recovery.

Before my EA, I thought the same thing e.g. that A’s can only happen to ‘bad’ people with no morals, values etc. My experience was indeed a HUGE eye-opener and wake-up-call for me… I’m the type of person who is normally very cautious & shy towards the opposite sex...very conservative. Before my EA I never engaged in any opposite sex friendship (only couples who were friends with both me and my H)…so my friendship (and eventually EA) with OM was VERY out of character for me.

I think it’s not so much about the fact that I made this bad choice and had a relapse recently, but the fact that me and my H didn’t expose to OMW and the fact that I still work at the same company than OM due to personal circumstances.

Thanks… I can see you are a sincere person with a good heart and I have much admiration and respect for BS’s like you. It can’t be easy for BS’s to try and replace their hurt, pain & rage with compassion and empathy for the FWS…especially after they had endured one of the greatest betrayals possible...

Thanks for the encouraging words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If my experience can help just one person to not make the same mistakes and go on the same path I did, then everything and the whole painful experience was not wasted!