The OW has been moving out of her house that's across the street all weekend. Her H has been no where in sight since last Saturdays episode and I believe that they are divorcing. They should be completely gone by Thursday.

My husband has shown no feelings toward this woman since I found out June 1st 2006. Since it has been going on for 3+ years I find that hard to believe He said that the A was ending and that he had been trying to end the last 6 mos.

He won't talk to me about the A anymore and says he wants her gone forever and never wants to see or talk to her again because of all the H**l we have been going through.
Do you think he is hiding his feelings? And if so, is this healthy?

My feelings are so sad, because this is a woman that I loved and would have done anything for. I am grieving the illusion of her 8 year friendship and that must sound crazy.

My husband still can't tell me why the A started or why he chose to violate our marriage vows. He said that there was very little sex involved and that they only had intercourse three times, plus a lot of petting. That he really wasn't into the sex thing with her (yet he admitted taking her to a Days Inn 3 times in the afternoons). I find after as long as this A has been going on that that is it.

I still do not have a time frame of when this started. Does a person actually forget how many times he or she has had intercourse or other sexual relations with another person? Does a person forget the things they did with this person over the years of the affair, like where they went, what they did, or where they ate? Where they together every Tuesday or just one or two times a month?

And is that a question that I should be asking? Because these are the questions that are driving me crazy! And I feel I have the right to know.

I feel I can't talk to him any more about the A as it might be pushing him away, but only he has the pieces of the picture of the puzzle that I feel I need to complete. He has been taking 3 months plus in telling me things and I just want it all out.

He has never voluntarily given me any information, he has never even brought the subject up, just says we should forget about it and go on. That this will never happen again. I always am the one to bring it up or to ask questions. Yet he says it is never the right time to talk about it.


He is extremely p*ssed at me for telling his mother.That I had no right to tell her. And feels that I have hurt her unnecessarily and their relationship and that I was extremely wrong for doing so. That these matters should be kept privately and be dealt with by ourselves.

Do I deserve to have my questions answered?

Am I expecting too much?

Is it considered Love Busting by wanting answers?

I am just so tired of the "I can't remember" and the "I don't knows".

I can't just sweep this under the rug like he wants me to do.

Randomm, I am a FWW, and my BH asked and asked and asked, and I answered with radical honesty, a MB principle. YES you deserve to have your questions answered! How can you make the decisions you have to make if you dont' have all the info?

I don't know if you'll want all the "gory" details, but if you do, you should get those too.

He should do full disclosure. It will hurt you to hear the details. But you should be able to know everything you need to know. How can you trust someone again who won't come clean? I can't remember and I don't know are not good enough.

You should tell him something like,"WH, I think that you think that if you don't tell me the answers to the questions I am asking, you are doing me a favor. I would like to think that you are doing it so you won't hurt me any more than I already hurt. But I need your honesty. You have decimated the trust I had in you, and I need honest answers in order to start to slowly rebuild that trust. I would like to ask you the questions I need to ask to start truly healing from what you have done to our M. This is what you need to do for me if you truly want our marriage to recover."

I truly hope he will listen.

randomm:
IMO,
you have EVERY right to ASK whatever it is YOU decide you Need/want to know.

I wanted it all.
Of course can't get quite that much (as its impossible) .....but I demanded as much as is actually possible.

Wanting answers is NOT a LBer .........but perhaps the manner in asking can be.

With that said:
Here is a letter that Helps to explain the BS's "Thinking"/mindset .......I dare say, it has Helped probably thousands .......So Maybe printing it out and showing it to your H will let him better understand what it is your having such a tough time getting across to him.

************************************************************
Joseph's Letter

I want to share a beautiful example of a letter one man wrote in his effort to get his wife to answer his questions.

So I'm including it here as a clear statement of the "need to know," as well as a clear explanation of why you ask the questions:

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away.
I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me.
I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand.
No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again.

I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue?
I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be.
But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there.
There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning.
You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings.
You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.
You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled.

If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question.
You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality.
There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality.
Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally.
The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both.
Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you.

So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do?
Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.
To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete.

You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing.
You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box.
You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you.
You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important.
When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important.
When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important.

Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion.
You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you.
When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.
You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything.
You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder.
You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened.

But how can I know that?
Faith?
Because you told me so?
Would you have faith if the tables were turned?
Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I?
I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.
I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings.
I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it.
That is why I ask questions.
That is where my need to know is derived from.
And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past.
My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.
It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer.
It comes from the fact that I love you.
Why else would I put myself through this?
Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away?
Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons?
Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

***********************************************************

There is a more detailed explanation on Dear Peggy (which you can find by just running a search engine about Joseph's Letter.

Just KNOW that your completely NORMAL in your reaction, as well as your expectations.
Its now up to YOUR H to prove and SHOW (with actions ...NOT words) ....exactly Where his intentions and loyalties are Now!
Giving you YOUR Truth for your Life would be a Great FIRST Step! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Wishing you Only success in finding your Healing!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dang Top I was off searching for Josephs letter for her and what do I come across the letter here aleady good job.

Random read my tag line about an honest person.

Anyway. Almost 3 years after D Day my fww finally somewhat came to the conclusion that honesty was important.

I can tell you first hand what will happen. You will somehow come across a detail he "forgot" That detail will the be inserted into the timeline of the A. That detail will make other things he has already told you a little unbelievable. You will then spend time figuring it out again. Then you will probably go back and tell him something doesn't make sense. New version will come out to explain the series of events. This will probably continue until he is honest with you.

For me it lasted 3 years.

What also happens in that time is you will be trying to fill the needs he said you may have neglected before the A.

A portion of what he did may contridict that. So you work on doing something to make him happy that is nothing more then a justification.

It took 3 years for my FWW to admit the real reason she had the A. Wow how can you recover from something when you are putting bandaids on a heart attack. LOL.

So now we are in MC. She has still not committed to radical honesty about the A. I know enough though to work on the real issues behind the A. HOWEVER she will never achieve the kind of trust she could have if she would have just sat down and been honest with me.

I would say 3 years is a hard amount of time. He should know the start date and the end date. If it was really only 3 times great.(i would be a little weary of that).

I would stay away from the gory details you may think you want them but remember this, every thing he tells you will play over in your head like a movie. Do not ask for movies you can't watch.

Give him Josephs letter and a calendar. He probably can't remember everything.

What I told my FWW is I wanted to hear from start to end about the A minus the gory details. I wanted to hear it more then one time without any changes. If there was a change we were back to square one.

If he wants to stay in this M and is commited to you this is something he should do for you.

Sorry you are hear but good luck.

I did write my version of Joeseph's letter and gave it to him the end of June. He said it was the best letter he's ever read.

I do not want the gory details, just the truth.

Is he really just an unsensitive man? Does he have feelings? He said it was coming to a closure when I found out. Email records prove that that's probably true.

But I find it very hard to believe that they spend 3+ years together in his truck, at Wendy's and Taco Time, 3 times in a Days Inn and 1 time in our airplane.

Those are the details I want to know about. I lost my business in 2004 because I thought I was going crazy, he made me feel guilty about it. Our phone records now prove he was having the A when I was running our business. We have lost close friends....I believe now it is because of his A.

I feel like an empty shell. I have no life in me and my husband says that he chose to be with me, he loves me, he never told her he loved her (even thou she told him) and we just need to forget about it because he's tired of being reminded that he's a lousy husband and father.

Do I tell him these things, "No". I tell him I love him more than anything in the world and can't imagine my life without him. I tell him I just need to know the truth. He thinks I'm sick for asking and just don't want to heal.

ran,

You are entitled to the details you are looking for. He is not insensitive and yes he probably has feelings.

His actions IMVHO, have real and perceived consequences. Each of his actions have those.

Minimization of the A is typical. The less they did or the less the OP meant the easier it is for them to avoid these consequences.

But do you want to build a new M on a solid foundation? If yes then radical honesty is important.


You may beleive this but it does not make it true. You are hypothosizing that if your H wasn't having an A that you were suspicious of then you would still have your business.

That is a big burden to place on him. In order for him to be radically honest with you he needs a safe environment to do it.

I personally would have a hard time being honest if I was going to be responsible for your business closing.

I am not saying that is or isn't the reason it happened but placing that on him could make it hard for him to be honest.

Most people here recommend Harley for councling I could not afford that so I just stared MC with my FWW. I would suggest that to him.

BTW there is a statistic on the web somewhere

80% of marriages survive after an A if it is discussed in depth a lot.

55% of marriages survive after an A if it is barely discussed.

To Me i like the higher odds so I wanted to discuss it.

Randomm,

""He thinks I'm sick for asking and just don't want to heal.""

You cannot heal if you keep picking at the wound. The picking is the questions you continue to have that are not being answered. They are picking at your brain...and they are always there.

""he chose to be with me, he loves me, he never told her he loved her (even thou she told him) and we just need to forget about it because he's tired of being reminded that he's a lousy husband and father.""

HE...HE...HE...its all about him. But for a WS it always is all about them. They are the self centered, selfish ones, who put their self-gratification above you, your family et al.

Tell him, sorry, but it is not about you right now. IT IS ABOUT ME!!! My sanity, my wellbeing, and the rest of MY life...with or without you.

I would maybe throw a little fear into the boy. (and I mean boy..as in little spoiled boy!)

Stand up for yourself and let him know you need this or else.

Also, he has had 3 years of getting used to this, going through the whole gamut of emotions, and his regrets, guilt, etc.

THIS IS ALL BRAND NEW TO YOU!!! So he should MAKE YOU HAPPY!! whatever and however long it will take.

ASK AWAY!!

IMHO

krk

Sorry about that hurtingless .........I've had posters scoop me before <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> .....and its kind of frustrating (in a good way, I suppose).
So I understand where your coming from. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Next,
krusht is sooo right in that the A was ALL about your H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

However,
YOUR personal Recovery is ALL about you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You Get to decide what you need. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Top,

NP I hate being lazy and telling someone to look for josephs letter.

I third what Krush said.

He chose to have an A you get to decide what you need to recover.

randomm:

This tactic kind of worked for me:
Let him KNOW (be calm, but Firm) that this ISSUE will Never Just GO Away.

IT will always be ON your Mind .......and then WILL come back up in conversation OVER an over (that is: until met and dealt with in honesty and completeness).

SOOOO,
if he doesn't LIKE going over it ......then explain, lets get it all out of the way NOW ......and let you Absorbed the info., take the emotional Hit ......then get back to living.

But let him KNOW in NO uncertain terms that it WILL ALWAYS be there and will be addressed again and again (up and until you have satisfaction).
In addition,
explain that it will also always be a Divide and a barrier that will exist between the 2 of you. (not your choice, but HIS)
Yes, you Can get back to the day to day .....but the healthy and happy won't come till he decides to Come clean and give you what you need.
Not a threat .....simply Reality.

Cause honestly they many times think they can just stone wall their way into getting YOU to let it go.
OR the other tactic is to bully you .......or even make YOU go on the defensive.
Please Don't own or buy into any of those tactics.

Now,
perhaps his Shame is making him NOT want to LOOK in your face as you ask and he tells.
OK,
that's common.

So perhaps write down your questions (either paper or email).

That way he can take his time in answering (reasonable mind you) and will not "reAct" to your expressions and [sighs] .......and perhaps have a ClearER head to give you MORE complete details (without all the pressure of you Waiting for an answer "right NOW"!)
If you know what I mean. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

This method of me sending my W emails and her answering in a journal worked REALLY well for us.
It kept me from getting so out of control and gave her time to process a thought,
without me interrupting OR just getting impatient and asking "what are you trying to think of another LIE??"

There are many ways to achieve the same goal,
so hopefully you'll find one that will work in your situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[edited sp]

randomm,

You might want to make an agreement to stick to one topic when you have discussions about the A. That helped my FWH. He didn't want to talk, wanted me to just get over it, etc., same as your H. Another thing we did was that we limited the time (no marathons!) to a reasonable timeframe, and we agreed on a time for the discussion and what the topic would be ahead of time. That gave him some time to think about it beforehand, and he didn't feel so blindsided. I would tell him that I wanted to talk about "how the affair started" or "the timeline of events" for example, and that we would talk on Saturday from 6 to 8. That way, he could collect his thoughts before then, and I could get my questions focused. It helped me keep from being so disconnected and tearful as well.

It can also make him feel a little safer, because he will know that the topic is limited, and that you won't just be jumping all over the place about things - and you have to stick to the plan for your part of it, because if you break his trust on your end he will be less likely to talk in the future. Try not to be judgmental, try to be very objective, and try to approach the talks with the mindset that you are there to get questions answered (not to solve problems at these conversations). These are information-only conversations. What happened for me was that at some point he opened up and started relating things without my asking - once he felt safe enough. It took about two or three sessions in which I didn't lose it, no crying, etc. Just made him feel safe enough to tell me what happened.

Hang in there, you are early on in the process. This isn't easy for you, or for him.

Yellow child -transport makes some great points. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'd like to concur that time Limits also seemed to help my W immensly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cause honestly,
once we got going ......I could talk about it for 3-4 hours EAZZZY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
However,
my W was usually burnt out by the end of the first Hour. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

She'd basically just get numbed and then retreat and begin not saying much at all ........which would then REALLY get me going. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Then later on,
she'd NOT want to have any more discussions .....cause she just thought they would drag on and on and ON ....until she would begin to shut down ....and she just wasn't up for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

So we'd put on the timer (microwave) and I'd have "that" much time ......and when it was over .....it would be done until the next time.
This made her MUCH more comfortable to agreeing to talk. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for telling his mother and damaging their relationship, that's a logical consequence - part of the exposure concept.