I know infidelity is a decision and in some sense is always intentional.

But I've always labored under the idea that many affairs happen "by accident" in that the two people don't set out to have an affair, but the emotions and bonding happen over time and the EA leads to a PA.

I thought this was the situation for my wife. I think I was wrong.

My wife was at a scrapbooking class with a friend on Tuesday evening. I'm glad she has this activity and I feel I can verify that she was there when I ask to see what she made in class (she is actually very talented and artistic). I was depressed and sad all evening for some reason. I intended to be in bed before she came home (~9:30pm), but she came home early.

For the past several months, when I'd hug and kiss her she would always push away if the kiss lingered longer than a peck. The only time we'd kiss with any passion was during SF. I hugged and kissed her that night with the same results. This only fueled my sadness and I walked away.

She could tell I was melancholy and asked. I tried to explain that I have sad days sometimes. I can't always explain why I am overwhelmed with grief unexpectedly, but I am. She doesn't understand it since she says, "I'm going to counseling, what more do you want?"

The conversation spiraled out of control from there.

During the conversation I restated my desire that she leave her job (where she met her 2nd OM). I really do understand why this is hard for her. Without a college education, her opportunities are limited and making what she makes in this job would be difficult elsewhere. But the work environment is destructive (in my opinion) with lots of inappropriate conversation topics and travel (during which I can't trust her).

She told me during all of this that she gave up on our marriage last October. We were at a Halloween party for her work and they had a karaoke machine. Long story short, my wife singing with another man (a co-worker) served as a trigger in some feelings from her first PA with a friend of mine with whom she was in a band at our church. I can't sing and the only thing I can play is the radio. She acknowledges that music was a big attraction to him (first PA). The memories of her signing and playing in the band with this guy reminds me that I'll never be able to provide that for her. Needless to say, I didn't hide my emotions very well. I didn't react the way she expected to her duet at the party (she saw it as jealousy) and she decided she'd had enough. The result of all of this was that in November she started her 2nd PA.

I'm not sure what she said Tuesday night, but I was left with the horrifying impression that her 2nd PA wasn't something that "just happened" or a friendship-turned-affair, but something she sought out and intentionally cultivated. This was followed by the revelation that her continued contact with the guy from California with whom she had the long term EA with was "her little rebellion" (her words) against my constant snooping.

After she yelled about how tired she is of my pity party, I walked downstairs to cool off. My best friend these days is TiVo.

She came down 30 minutes later and apologized and wanted me to come to bed. I did and since then she has been loving and affectionate. I'm not sure if it will last.

I'm actually pretty devastated by this right now. I'm trying to focus, but somehow the idea that she intentionally went out to find someone else is eating me alive.

I'm actually thinking about divorce as a realistic option more so now than ever before. This scares me.

I want to bring this up in counseling on Saturday. Should I tell her I want to talk about it first and risk another fight or just bring it up without telling her?

Help, please.

I'm sorry for your pain...

Look it is always been my position that there is no such thing as accidental....there are way too many decisions that are made for it to be an "accident"...

It is no different than the guy who goes out and robs a bank and "by accident" shoots the poor guy with the shot gun to his head...he has put himself in the position to shoot someone...

just like our W's decided to have sex with another...at any time during the process they could have said no...

D is always an option..you must decide whether or not that is what you want...

I hear you SMOMY, and feel the same that it is always a decision and, in some sense, intentional.

I guess my difficulty is in processing the thought that my wife may have gone out "looking" for an affair.

Maybe I was too naive before about her first PA -- "We didn't intend to 'fall in love', but it happened and I'm sorry."

Her description (during the argument) of her second PA as more like -- "I was fed up with you and decided to go find someone else."

Divorce isn't what I want -- I've been the one through all our problems consistently dismissing it as an option. My wife's been the one that runs "there" first -- "We should just get divorced!" or "That's it -- I'm filing!"

I recently came to the point that I could accept it if she decided to divorce me. It was a bit of growth for me.

Now that I'm seriously considering filing for it worries me.

Thanks

Hello Artor,

I can understand that it's more hurtful when your partner deliberately sets out to have an A.
That doesn't mean your M can't recover.
But right now it seems to me that your WW is in a lot of fog - the self-justifying kind, and that she has a lot of growing up to do.
She seems to constantly take the easy way out when she's "bored" or when she feels she just doesn't want to do the hard work that is involved in recovery.

So you can't sing - so what?
I bet there are things she can't do that you really admire in a woman.
That doesn't make you run to some OW.
Because you set your priorities straight.
Your WW, much like a young girl in puberty, seems to be thinking only of herself.
I hope counseling can help her get out of this fog.
Or has she always been like this?

How long has it been since you found out?
How long are you guys married?
Any children?

Thanks, brownhair for the encouragement.

I've come to grips with my inability to sing . . . but I went through a period after her first PA where I identified anything that connected her with the OM. I threw out (with her consent) her Nordic Track that he "helped" her find (she wasn't using it anyway). We changed churches (after she decided she couldn't attend it anymore). I refuse to go to restaurants where they went. Etc....

Music was one area I couldn't "conquer" and one in which her first OM would always have me beat. My wife is very talented musically (sings and plays piano). We bought a piano for the house so she could play. I like to hear her play and enjoy her ability. It was as shocking to me as it was to her that I had that sudden resurgence of feelings when she sang a karaoke duet.



I will acknowledge that she is the first (and very quick) to suggest divorce when we get into an argument that involves our marriage. She cites that as the easiest way out. I'm always the one holding on and lobbying for counseling or time.

I found out about her first PA 5 years ago and guess I had a false recovery -- I don't know.
I found out about her second PA in February (2006) and her continued contact with him and another man (long-distance EA) in July/August.

We've been married 18 years with two beautiful daughters (17 and 16).

Thanks for your time and support.

Artor, if your WW had a second PA, then you never really "recovered" your M.
In a recovered M both spouses know how to protect the M.
They both respect the boundaries that prevent A's.

This also means your WW never came to terms with WHY she goes looking for someone else, causing her mate of 18+ years and the father of her children immense pain, yet obviously she wants to remain married to you.
She says "ok, then let's get a D" but she takes no step towards that.
She want to have her cake and eat it too..
She acting in a very selfish way.

If your WW is still in contact with these OM.. that should be your next target.
Continued contact is poison to your M.
No contact (NC) HAS to be in place for your M to ever recover.

Have you read up on Plan A, Plan B and the reasons for no contact (for life)?

As far as I know and can verify, there is no contact with the OM.

I exposed the PA's and EA's to the critical people (spouses, pastor, etc) to ensure they had all the motivation in the world.

I actually have spoken or met with each OM to tell them in no uncertain terms that any continued contact would be "dealt with" -- the intimation of physical, legal or other intervention was left hanging.

I know at times she is a "cake eater", but can't seem to get her to see that.

I agree that what I thought was "recovery" the first time wasn't really. It was me learning to control my sadness, despair and desperation while my wife just let her PA get swept under the carpet.

I'm working on how to make her see that our counseling (which she is currently going to, albeit with reservations) must cover the entire span of time. She is vocal about her unwillingless to "go back and rehash the past".

We'll see how it goes Saturday.

Thanks

OK, I just thought there still was contact because you wrote "I found out about her second PA in February (2006) and her continued contact with him and another man (long-distance EA) in July/August."

Your WW will need to understand at some point that the past is what makes us who we are.
Or your M will do a lot of stumbling over the bumps of the "rug" where she's sweeping everything under, rather than dealing with it.

Of course it's not FUN to face the mistakes one has made.
I can understand that people choose to take the easy way out and just look for "fun".
And that's exactly how my X lost me...

Sorry for the confusion. When I found out about the continued contact, I personally called the wives of the two men and had a long talk with them. During one call (the EA in California), the wife actually conferenced her husband in to let him know that he was found out.

Talk about an awkward moment...it was actually very helpful as I was able to help ask questions for her since she was totally caught off guard by this. Questions like, "If it was just a 'friendship' with my wife, why did you create a secret email account to talk with her?" really helped her see that he as indeed involved in something he knew was wrong.

The OM from her 2nd PA called me that evening to apologize (at his wife's insistence). I listened, stated the need for permanent non-contact, accept his apology and (to my discredit??) refused to offer forgiveness. I still don't forgive him.

I like the imagery of tripping over the bumps in the rug. I'll use that in counseling this weekend with your permission.

Thanks

Hi Artor-
Reading your original post in this thread reminds me of me and Messdup (my husband).

First: As a FWW, I confess that I, also, gave up on my marriage at one point. And that directly lead to my own EA. So I see myself in your wife. I tell you this because that was 4 years ago, and I changed my mind (I now want to rebuild my marriage, and I have no interest in anyone else but my husband). If I can change, then your wife can too. Don't give up on her.

Second: I also can't sing at all. Or act. I am talentless, but my husband (Messdup) is very very good at both. His first PA was with someone he met while he was in a musical- she is quite artistic and beautiful and talented. So I see myself in you too.

I think my mistake in that first affair was that I backed out of his stage experience. In previous plays I was very active (working backstage, changing scenery and stage construction, I was there at all rehersals). For this particular musical, I was not involved at all. His affair may have happened anyway, but I think I might have made it more difficult if I was present more at that crucial time.

I'm telling you this story to demonstrate that there are ways for you to be involved with your wife's music that don't require you to sing. Basically I think she would prefer your wholehearted admiration of her talent anyway. That may have been what she was looking for at that fateful duet---> your smile at her. Maybe?

It will be ok Artor. Don't give up.

Thank you very much for relating your experience. It's good to hear some hope.

I encourage her to play the piano at home and encouraged her to get involved in the choir at church or some musical pursuit.

As of now, occasionally she plays at home, but I think she has been trying to put it behind her. I don't know why -- I have always praised her talent and skill.

I haven't given up yet, but I know where I can find a white flag.

Thanks

Artor:

It is amazing to me that everytime that I have a personal issue that I struggle with in our own recovery, it seems like someone else here has the same struggle. I am a lot further down the road in recovery (1 year +) so I will try and share my thoughts on this subject and hopefully it will help.

Whether or not an affair began accidentally or intentionally is probably something that you will never really know for sure. We could even argue as to whether most affairs actually start out innocently and at some point cross the line to an inappropriate relationship. There is a pretty recent exchange between me (a FBH) and Suzset (a FWW) that I think is usefult for you to read. If you will click on my name and then go to all users posts and look for the call out, the thread is titled something like Nottoday, Over here please.... I think that this does give you some insight from both perspectives on this issue.

I think that Brownhair makes some very valid points here. What you are dealing with is really how to you rationalize your FWW's actions in order for you to have your own personal recovery. This is a really touchy issue...on one hand, in order for you and your FWW both to experience a full recovery, you cannot downplay the poor choices that she made. At some point, whether intentional or accidental, she put herself in the position and allowed the boundary to be crossed. She has to understand why that she allowed herself to be put in that position. It is likely, that she believes at this point that she was really engaging in an exit affair, the marriage was over in her mind and she just wanted to get a jump start on her new life. In reality, I personally believe that very few affairs are actually exit affairs. Rather they begin by that person recieving and enjoying their needs being met by someone else. Only after the affair is full blown and they have to rationalize their actions in thier own mind do they start rewriting marital history and make themselves believe that they only put themselves in this position because their marriage was over.

The human mind is a powerful tool and it can and does give us some head fakes to allow us to live with our own conscience. It is very possible that your FWW believes that she accidentally fell into this second affair when in reality she sought it out. Either way, I understand why that it would make you feel better if it occurred by accident. I am the same way and still struggle with exactly the same issue even well into recovery. My inability to deal with this one last remaining issue is an obstacle to both my full personal and marital recovery. My decision and I believe yours as well is for us to be able to resolve this internally even if we really don't get the answers that we are looking for.

In my own sitch, I have accepted what happened, a ONS that turned into a nine month long PA, I have come to grips with all the factors that allowed my FWW to be completely out of character to put herself in this position and even though we are committed to absolute radical honesty in our relationship now I know that she has told me everything that she believes to be the truth. Now her believes are the key here because I know that with regards to certain timelines of the where and when there are some inconsistencies. Now I have the disadvantage of having a memory like an elephant but D-Day occurred more than ten years after the AE. It is logical that for most who do not possess my memory capacity, that they would be unable to connect all the time frames, etc. on something that happened ten years ago. I was able to come to grips with most of these issues because I understand and have respect for the power of the human mind. My FWW had compartmentalized things for so long prior to D-Day that even she was believing her own lies. Some of those inconsistencies are just her self defense mechanism trying to hide what horrible things occurred in her life ( no different than selective amnesia that some trauma patients have). So in short, once I was certain that she told me all that she believed to be true and that those inconsistent details did not change my overall plan for recovery, I was resigned to just live with the simple explanation that I was trying to make sense out of an affair and nothing about an affair makes sense. I am at peace with those issues.

However, I still have one issue unresolved in my mind and that has to do with the details and time frame of the events that led up to that point in time where the new relationship (friendship) took its evil turn to the inappropriate (EA quickly turned PA). One thing that I believe is that we all have much better memory of things that are significant in our lives. Think about the details of a funeral that you may have attended when you were very young. Do you remember things like the flowers, words said at the service, clothes of the deceased, etc. Chances are that most if they really think about this could have those supernatural memory experiences about things that were really inconsequential but they remember because it was the event i.e. the funeral that was signicant. Now using this example, what event is more significant for either a wayward or betrayed in their adult life than an affair? Why shouldn't the wayward be able to remember many little things about the events leading up to that even if they had blocked out the major events (e.g. first touch, questions asked, comments made, etc.). Therein lies the problem. We know that there are additional details about the inflection point (the point in time when they chose to take this R to a level where that the boundaries were clearly crossed) but for most BS, this point in time is the most vague of all of the details that we have asked for.

Now here are the possibilities in this regard?

1) They know additional details but are unwilling to share them in order to protect either us or them.

2) They believe that they have been forthcoming with the truth but cannot truly remember the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

If it in fact a self defense mechanism like discussed in preceding paragraphs and the memory lapse is due totally to number 2, then we as BS just have to find a way to move forward and resolve these issues without really ever knowing the whole truth. Tough medicine, but I am not sure that we have any alternatives. We must decide if this additional information is needed by us just so we can continue to dwell on the issues or if it has a bearing on our ultimate decision on how to proceed with the rebuilding process.

But, if number 1 is more the case, how can any marital recovery really start in earnest if we think that we have anything less than complete, total, radical honesty. The burden is on the WS to provide us with whatever information we need to be able to process and move forward...regardless of the consequences to them. There is no room in rebuilding a marriage for WS to continue to protect themselves. Their role has to be at some point to protect us from further pain and suffering and contrary to what many of them believe, if they try to internalize anything or sugarcoat even a minor issue, they are putting the knife even deeper in our gut, not protecting us at all.

That being said, one word of caution that I recieved early on by a brillant MB poster. Be careful what you ask for. Before you drill further into this issue, you need to ask yourself three things:

1) Does this information make a difference in what my long term plan for personal recovery is? If not, is it even relevant.

2) Does obtaining this information allow me to accept and resolve these issues in a permanent way or just give me additional fuel to the fire of my pain and suffering? The only reason why you should pursue this is if it is necessary for you to move forward. This includes a need for you to "feel" like that your W has been honest with you.

3) What I am going to do with this information if it is what I feared was true rather than what I want to believe was true.

I think that one thing that is really different in terms of perspective between the betrayed and the waywards is how important full disclosure is for the betrayed. Especially for males. Full disclosure is necessary for the betrayed because most of us cannot believe that it happened right under our noses and in order for us to be able to commit to vunerability again, we need information on how that it happened so that we can prevent or at least detect that from happening again.

NT

Thanks, nottoday, for your time and thoughts.

The issue of full disclosure has been a sticky one between my wife and I.

Immediately following her first PA, I asked what I thought were some pretty straight-forward questions such as, "Did he ever come to our house?". All my questions were met immediately with, "I'm not giving you any details!" (there was a snarl after that, sometimes).

I struggled with my need for details, not only which details, but why I needed to know things that I knew would hurt. In some of my reading (I didn't know about MB then), I came across an explanation that it's not the details that matter as much as the wayward spouse demonstrating that they were willing to be totally honest, even about painful and embarrassing details, that mattered to the betrayed spouse.

That explained it.

I tried to share this with my wife, that while I needed to know some of the details, her willingness to answer my questions was worth much more. She still refused and tried to frame it as, "Tell me what value knowing those details will add?".

Since that affair was over 5 years ago, I don't think there are many details that matter now, although I still never had all my questions answered.

This time around (2nd PA), she has been a bit more forthcoming -- probably since I spoke with the OM wife and he told her everything which she relayed to me. You have no idea how much this angered my wife and did more than anything to drive a wedge between her and the OM initially.

I still struggle with getting her to be open and honest about details. I catch little discrepancies and pursue the important ones, usually to find a revised story at the other end.

We're moving forward, I think. Had a real bad evening Tuesday when emotions and words got out of control. But I have been much better this time in standing my ground and not backing down in an effort to spare her feelings.

I look forward to the day when all this will be a distant memory.

Best of luck to you -- it's good to hear that BS' can move on some day.

Exactly...but for some reason,many/most waywards never get this...and it seems to be the worst very close to D-Day and then after about six months (and probably forever after that). It is not the gory details that matter to the BS. That in fact is pretty useless information...it is the willingness of the wayward spouse to open their heart to rebuilding a new relationship. The betrayed spouse is now somewhat cynical and untrusting (imagine that after an A) and they are looking for any signs that their WS has changed...honesty, vunerability, caring about the feelings of the BS, willingness to protect the BS.

Really IMHO, radical honesty is a two pronged relationship builder. First, it opens the door to two people really being one through sharing everything . The good, the bad and the ugly. Through that sharing, they truly find intimacy because they feel the joy,pain, whatever the emotion of the other spouse. Then the logical next step is that they do whatever they can to protect the spouse from bad feelings and encourage more good feelings (because at that point, they are feeling those same things).

The second prong is protection. When we took our vows we knew that we had responsiblities towards the other spouse. No one gave us an owners manual that told us which bearings needed to be greased and when. But after an A, we are cognizant of things that we probably never even considered prior to D-Day. Full disclosure and radical honesty from both spouses not only clues us into what the others needs, thoughts and vunerabilities are but also kicks our own defense mechanism into gear to protect the other spouse from those vunerabilities.

Now if I could just find some more of that magic dust to spread around and make all the WS and FWS understand that concept, we could all move forward much quicker.

NT

Artor,

IMVHO you cannot move forward in recovery without the details. NO GORRY DETAILS.

I believe this because this whole exercise it to feel loved and most importantly safe.

It also gives you a gauge to how remorseful and repentant the FWS is. If they did things wrong shouldn't they try to make up for them? The more they did the more work there is to win you back. So if you want to feel valued you need to know what it is the FWS did to see if they are willing to work just as hard to make things better.

My FWW actually asked me one time "what difference does it make if I did it one time or every night with him, all you need to know is I had an A." I said really. She said yes.

I said so if I went out of town and ended up in bed with another women and instead of regretting it and cutting it off right then and there you would be ok if we did it three times a day for the entire time I was there? She said no. I said but you just said what difference does it make. If it makes no difference you are saying if I ever make a mistake like that just go at it until I get home. I said I will keep that in mind. In it for a dime in it for a dollar.

The point is the things that they think are unimportant are important but they try to minimize them. Them knowing you know the truth does not allow that internal minimization of what they did.

My FWW like yours would not answer my questions. Well what happened for me is I was chasing my tail trying to fix my side of it. Well my side of it kept changing depending on what the truth today was.

Finally after 3 years she has come to terms with the fact that I was a wonderful husband and father. There was one issue that she kept resenting me over. We both shared in that issue. Quite frankly her more then I.

But I would never feel safe in this M if she didn't admit to that. Only the details of the A helped bring us to this point.

So I think all A's are intentional. YES.

Unless both of their clothes were blown off and then one fell on top of the other then got stuck there for some reason. It was intentional.

Even a ONS is a whole set of little decesions. You cannot unintentionally make a decesion. IE I was away from my S. I was out with some friends. Attractive women comes up and talks to me. STOP. Would I engage in this conversation if my W was here. NO. First bad decesion then it goes from there. Each step they have an opportunity to make the right decesion but they don't.

Really what it comes down to is the WS/FWS knows what they are doing is wrong but they like it so they keep going forward.