I'm either stupid or this forum is hard to navigate but I can't find my original post so I'm starting a new one.

As I said before, I disagree with the exposure piece to this program. I think it amounts to nothing more than revenge, which is fine but let's call it what it is.

I just don't see how involving a spouses's employer, community, church etc. helps anything. Especially when said spouse loses their income.

I also disagree with this whole justification of "well, they should've thought about that before having the affair" and the reason I disagree with that is because having an affair is awful and it wrecks your marriage but it should not wreck everyone's life. Did anyone consider also that the employer may not give a darn??? I think it makes the victim in this look stupid and desperate.

Messing with someone's career and income is wrong and not very good advice IMHO.

Now someone called me a troll because I posted something like this on my second post as a newbie. Sorry to disappoint but I really don't have time for trolling. See how long it took me to even respond from my post a few days ago.

Yes, I am the wayward spouse (hate that term) and yes I was correct in using the word *encounter* when I described my situation. Someone asked for details well here ya go:

My husband and I have had intimacy issues for years. I tried everything to get him to see that. I got a blank stare back. I've been in therapy for other issues (ADD/Depression) and once that got worked out my therapist and I started discussing my marriage.

The short version of this story is I've had years of rejection, non-affection and couldn't get my husband to see the problem. So, I started chatting on-line. I talked to about three guys for roughly a month.

I only visited one of them for lunch one time. Yes, we did a little kissing but that was it. So, this to me is an encounter. Considering it was one time one person.

I told my husband everything just this week after one of my therapy sessions. I didn't want this to get worse and wanted the nightmare to be over quite frankly.

Long story but husband understands, also shares some responsibility in this and we are moving forward. I came here to get information on how he and I can do something more to help our marriage so we don't have a repeat on either side.

I showed my husband the questionnaires on here and he likes that idea on filling them out and talking with each other. But he also agreed with me on the exposure subject. He also would never have considered that.

We just don't see that as helpful. The whole situation is embarrassing enough without piling on the whole community and telling the kids. Again, this is our opinion though...obviously others here disagree.

wecansurvive....

I don't think that people would think that exposure would apply in your case.....

it is a horse of many different colors....

and is NOT applicable to your situation....

in SOME situations it is an appropriate option and choice of an individual...

and each individual can decide if it something that works for breaking up an affair...that is using others to exist..
or whatever the case...

it is a principle held to by the owners of this site...
you don't have to agree to it...

so why the need to enter a futile debate.....
each will choose as they see fit.

and blanket statements won't apply as each affair is different..

do you have a question about it...or just voicing a blanket opinon?

ARK

Then that explains your views regarding exposure.

I'm not surprised in the least.

Since you are not a betrayed spouse, you do not have any exposure to conduct and thus, your view is a moot point. You don't get to decide NOT to expose.

wecansurvive--

My feeling is that exposure is essential when the threat or potential of continued contact is real or when the other person has a spouse/significant-other that deserves to know about the "encounter".

In my case, I didn't involve anyone but those immediately affected (spouses and minister). I have told my wife that I need her to change jobs since one of her affairs was with a man with whom she has contact at work (he lives in another state and occasionally travels to her office). Right now, knowing his wife knows of the affair (3rd party) and having personally talked to her about continued contact, my next step, if contact continues is to involve his employer and my wife's employer.

I agree that exposure can sound and feel a lot like vengence, but it really does have a purpose in most situations.

Do you REALLY know this man you met through the internet? Anyone can be charming on-line and for short in-person visits. If he is the kind to continue to court you or continue contact, you must tell your husband and expose his unwanted advances to whomever it takes to get him to leave you alone.

Best of luck in your recovery.

[color:"red"] " intimacy issues " [/color]

every M has intimacy issues ... intimacy within a marriage is not a constant ... it comes and goes ... we learn true intimacy by staying married & connected despite internal or external forces that work against intimacy

we marry our equal when it comes to one's ability to be intimate ... everyone of us has married our equal ... and the trick is to use our integrity to stay connected during those times we don't feel like we want to .... INTEGRITY is KEY for marital intimacy

Pep

wecansurvive,

Welcome to MB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm either stupid or this forum is hard to navigate but I can't find my original post so I'm starting a new one.

To find your old post....since you only have a couple....the easiest thing to do is to click on your own name. A page will come up....and one of the options says "show all user's posts". When you click that....your posts will come up and you can find the one you need. Don't feel stupid....I was here for months not days before I discovered all the features.

As I said before, I disagree with the exposure piece to this program. I think it amounts to nothing more than revenge, which is fine but let's call it what it is.

I think many folks disagree with exposure when they first arrive (especially the waywards)....because it really is counter-intuitive and does sound like a vengeful act. If you'll let me explain a little, I might be able to help you understand the method behind the madness so to speak. It might not change your mind....and that's okay....but at least hear me out and let me know if any of this makes sense.

I just don't see how involving a spouses's employer, community, church etc. helps anything. Especially when said spouse loses their income.

There are times, when loss of income is not nearly the biggest loss some families are facing. Losing a mother/father for children for instance and the tragedy of how divorce affects children, takes precedence over monetary considerations. One of the things that affairs need to thrive is "secrecy"....it's absolutely vital to it's survival. Afterall, hardly anyone would cheat if they knew that everyone would immediately know....would they?

So exposure creates accountability, protection and lack of secrecy which are some pretty powerful tools for ending affairs. Amazing as it may seem....churches are apparently fertile breeding grounds for affairs. The church community also provides the kind of moral accountability that helps affair partners resist future temptation. It might seem cruel at first.....but think about any kind of addiction treatment you know....and the first step is always "admitting" that the addiction exists....that's what provides accountability. Exposure does something similar. It helps not just the husband and wife....but the community to support the boundaries of good marriages....which are the building blocks of communities.

One of the great tragedies of modern society is that it's "normalized", "glorified" and hollywoodised" affairs. Exposure brings folks back to earth and out of fantasy to the reality that an affair is not a romance...it's a tragedy for almost everyone involved.

I also disagree with this whole justification of "well, they should've thought about that before having the affair"

Yeah....I don't buy that much either. Nobody can "undo" their mistakes....so speculating about what they should have done....is not that helpful. It sounds to me like the affair in your sitch has ended....and so exposure might seem harsh under those circumstances....but please consider the risks of recontact that we see here everyday. The purpose of exposure is to lessen those risks as much as possible....and prevent far more pain than exposure causes....not just for the BS and WS...but the kids, families, even communities.

and the reason I disagree with that is because having an affair is awful and it wrecks your marriage but it should not wreck everyone's life. Did anyone consider also that the employer may not give a darn??? I think it makes the victim in this look stupid and desperate.

I personally don't always advocate business exposure. There are some companies who do give a darn and some who don't. My husband's company couldn't have cared less....they facilitated affairs. But when you get folks in small companies, church jobs, scouting, places where people consider "reputation" an important commodity.....affairs hurt their business....and it's just as bad for them, as it is for you. It also often leaves them open to litigation about sexual harassment.

Messing with someone's career and income is wrong and not very good advice IMHO.

You can change careers....you can't change daddies and mommies, and you shouldn't have to change husbands and wives. If income is more important than fidelity.....then your marriage probably has lots more problems than just an affair.

Now someone called me a troll because I posted something like this on my second post as a newbie.

I'm sorry about that. Tension seems to be high lately....and we had a poster that kept coming back as a newbie and disrupting the board.

Sorry to disappoint but I really don't have time for trolling. See how long it took me to even respond from my post a few days ago.

Please know....in this environment....the more you try and defend yourself ....the worse it gets. Just post about what's important to you. It's probably not very good manners to show up on a new board and begin your experience by telling folks what's "wrong" with it....yanno? That's what trolls do.....so establish who you are....talk about what is helpful to you....make some contacts. Try that first.

Yes, I am the wayward spouse (hate that term) and yes I was correct in using the word *encounter* when I described my situation. Someone asked for details well here ya go:

My husband and I have had intimacy issues for years. I tried everything to get him to see that. I got a blank stare back. I've been in therapy for other issues (ADD/Depression) and once that got worked out my therapist and I started discussing my marriage.

The short version of this story is I've had years of rejection, non-affection and couldn't get my husband to see the problem. So, I started chatting on-line. I talked to about three guys for roughly a month.

I only visited one of them for lunch one time. Yes, we did a little kissing but that was it. So, this to me is an encounter. Considering it was one time one person.

You have complete freedom to call this whatever you want to....but it's unlikely that the folks here will use the same title. You were involved in 3 EAs (emotional affairs) and one of them escalated to physical contact PA (physical affair). Your husband may be happy you never had sex with this guy.....but for women.....kissing is often far more intimate than sex. As a woman....expect me to consider what happened to you every bit as important, and destructive to your marriage as sexual contact. (Fortunately LOL....you're married to a MAN who is probably relieved.)

I told my husband everything just this week after one of my therapy sessions. I didn't want this to get worse and wanted the nightmare to be over quite frankly.

Good for you....keep being honest.

Long story but husband understands, also shares some responsibility in this and we are moving forward. I came here to get information on how he and I can do something more to help our marriage so we don't have a repeat on either side.

Well you came to right place....now if you can remove the chip from your shoulder, and get a thick skin about how some folks post.....you'll learn some great stuff to rebuild your marriage. I hope you stick around.

I showed my husband the questionnaires on here and he likes that idea on filling them out and talking with each other. But he also agreed with me on the exposure subject. He also would never have considered that.

Were the men you were involved with married? If you were their wives....would you want to know? It's pretty early for you to make your mind up about exposure.....take your time to discuss it a little bit. I thought alot of the stuff on this site was "off" when I first arrived....it wasn't until I'd been here a long time....that I fully understood the reason for some of them.

Good Luck. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WCS-

Think about what exposure would have made sense for your husband to do, had he known about the online affairs and you refused to end them.

Going to your family, and asking them to remind you of what you stood to lose by continuing this behavior.

Perhaps communicating with your other online friends and ensuring that they knew you were married...or finding a way to contact the other men's wives if they were married to put an end to the chatting and such that were ongoing.

Think about it...if you were married to one of those guys, wouldn't you have wanted to know what they were carrying on with someone else online like this?

If you had a friend that you KNEW was married, but cheating on her husband, would you not try to get her to end what she was doing?

If your sister was fooling around and meeting with some man and kissing him during lunch, wouldn't you think that you'd want to try to convince her to quit, and to tell her H?

Somthing else you might work on coming to grips with. Your H is NOT in any way to blame for YOUR choice to engage in inappropriate relationships in other men.

He IS responsible for his share in the state your marriage was in. Just as I was responsible for the state of mine.

But, the choice to engage in the behavior you did was YOURS ALONE. It's hard to swallow, but you know deep down that you weren't FORCED into this...you still had other options that you hadn't done yet.

To include ending your marriage, or making it clear to your H that if things didn't change you were willing to end your marriage.

Exposure is unpleasent for EVERYONE. It's MEANT to be. Because it makes it difficult for the WS to continue the behaviors that they know they shouldn't be doing. But it has the benifit of giving BOTH spouses a support net to deal with the issue if it's done right.

Case in point...my wife began talking with one of my sisters to whom I'd 'exposed'. Turns out my sister had gone through something very similar...and became a place my wife could talk to. Interestingly enough, my sister had recovered her marriage...and became a source of support for my wife in FIXING OUR MARRIAGE.

This put things into more perspective for you?

And if this text was written by a BS...?

If the affair is so right and good and meant to be like the affairees think, then why the problem with exposing it.

If by "this text" you mean the originating post, then of course my answer would have been different.

Isn't that obvious?

Your point?

WAT

What would your answer be?
And why/how different?

My point - I'm FBW, and would not use exposure (not to WH's employer, community, his friends... but only to a friend of mine or to SOME (very close) members of family)
I.e. not to EVERYONE as "suggested" here...

Wayward spouses are not the only folks who question exposure. I see lots of BSs who also question the importance of it....and frankly.....I think it's okay for ANYONE to express their opinions and question these concepts. It gives those of us who understand them a chance to help not just the newbie...but the tons of lurkers on this site.

I for one....often question the "method" of exposure sometimes recommended here. I have big concerns about it being used to heal rather than harm....and that's why I've agreed with you WAT....about the sort of "concentric ring" theory based on "risk". I don't think "wide" exposure is always necessary....but I think the "inner circle" must include the OPS...and age appropriage honesty for the children so they don't blame themselves. Business, community, church, bowling leagues etc.....are "outer-ring strategies" to target entrenched affairs with very high risk for professional and social re-contact.

At all times.....I think exposure needs to be compassionately done so that it isn't confused with revenge and distructiveness. Dr. Harley is one of the classiest men I've ever met.....I think exposure is meant to be conducted with poise and civility to reap the most helpful responses.

And that would be your preogative.

I personally do not always advocate exposure to an employer, for example - especially if it's not a workplace affair. But if "close in" exposure didn't work and the employer is, for example, the US military or the Catholic Diocese - even if it wasn't a workplace affair - you'd be a fool not to expose there because it's advertised as being against the rules.

As star*fish stated, some of us advocate for a concentric circle approach. But based on my observation here for many years, if exposure doesn't work very close in, i.e., with confrontation of the WS, OP and the OP's spouse, then close family members, it isn't gonna work until MANY more people know.

JMHO

WAT

Here's the concentric ring approach that Wat and I have talked about periodically:

*One thing to note is that all of this should happen in a matter of days....not weeks or months....exposure should be done quickly.

When a BS finds out about the affair....the smallest ring is the people most affected by the affair.....front line. This includes confrontation to your wayward spouse, and exposure to the spouse of the other person (if there is one). The OP usually finds out in that process....and while some folks recommend that confrontation....I think catching them offguard and just telling their spouse is preferable.

Children, are often also on the front line....and it's important that they understand why mom and dad are crying/fighting so that they don't blame it on themselves. Their exposure is more "fluid" than others....timing is important....and age appropriate honesty is important....but it's also important that they aren't in the dark long enough to make their own conclusions. I place them on the cusp between the inner circle and the next....only so you can gather your thoughts and be supportive for them.

If the affair ends and NC can be verified after the inner circle....exposure ends right here.

If the contact continues...the next ring....is the ring of confidants. Family (mothers, fathers, siblings.....hopefully in good health....physicaly and phsychologically....be choosy), good/close friends, the pastor of the church....the folks who provide the the moral compass for the WS and support the marriage the most. The people most likely to intervene and influence the WS to do the right thing and end the affair.

If contact with the OP ends at this point....exposure ends.

If contact continues because of high risk, continued workplace interation, continued social interaction or entrenchment....then the next ring is a last ditch effort to create accountability for high risk affairs. This ring is the hardest (and most public) to do....and has more volatility than the others....when it works...it really works...when it doesn't....it REALLY doesn't. For that reason, it is a last resort effort to put pressure on an "entrenched" affair.

Some folks don't ever feel comfortable about that last ring....I've know many BSs who weren't. If your marriage needs that last ring....many folks think it's preferable to move on....but for the folks who aren't ready to give up....it can provide one more ring of defense before giving up on the marriage altogether.

I understand you
And I don't say you are wrong and I'm right (like some pople here would "kill" to prove to be right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)... just that we have, in some ways, different approach...

You know that total ('last circle') exposure does not stop every affair, right?
And in some cases it IS contra productive.
And might harm BS (and kids) much more than WS and their A.
Agree?

Therefore my opinion - it is not applicable to EVERY case.
And here I see some people pushing hard EVERYONE to go to this last circle... and I really cannot see any good for SOME BSs in it... (in the long run)

However, I (personally) see it from a different angle...
E.g. if my WS stops his A ONLY because he's threatened by losing his job/career, and not because I asked him to do so (and let's say his parents, siblings...)... what would that mean then?
For me, it's forcing him to get back to M.
KWIM?
At least, that would not make ME happy/pleased...
Yes, the one can say he was "in fog" and he will appreciate it one day in the future, but... well, it's just me and MHO... and my awareness who I need to spend "the rest of my life" with... (Not with 'forced' one, above all...)
(I guess that's why I'm alone now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> BUT HAPPIER! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
(I.e., if what I "should" do doesn't make ME being myself, and proud and with untouched dignity... I do not do it for any cost I'd have to pay later on... for it wouldn't be me anymore...)

Congratulation if you really understood me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


So, imagine now, being the way I am, (and not so few people are like that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />), imagine 'this type' has A and BS threatens me to ruin my career that I invested so many years into... you know what I would do?
I would stop A (to prevent ruining my career if possible), but I would never want to see him again.
To go so far to ruin that... cannot be a person I could ever live with...
For there are much better ways!
If he makes himself again GOOD for me.

Hi WCS,

I have a question. If it was your husband that had done the above, would you still be calling this an "ENCOUNTER"?

It was one time- one person for my husband and I certainly do not consider it an encounter and he didn't have 2 other EA's to go along with it.

Right - the affair may continue, it may die anyway, and/or divorce may take place.

I guess - and you end up not married anyway.

I don't know how much more the BS and kids can be harmed. Either way, you end up not married and the family destroyed.

That would mean you get a chance to rebuild your marriage. Otherwise, you may get NO chance.

I sense you are thinking about the waywards as rational humans and you're trying to apply rationality and logic to ending the affairs.

They are typically NOT rational.

They are under the influence of the love drug.

Exposure can upset the fantasy so that they can ween themselves off the love drug and return to rationality.

THEN your rational approach can be used.

JMHO

WAT

Star*fish,


Hm... And that age is...? (Or you meant just parents in recovery stage, not divorced ones?)

E.g. my son was 2 when we D, now he's (almost) 5...
I said nothing to him.
A few weeks ago he asked me why we don't live together and we lived together (saw pictures in the album).
I said nothing, avoided the question. For the time being.
But soon he will ask again. And I am not going to tell him it's because his father had A and that ruined our relationship.
Why?
He's too small IMO. And it WOULD make him to have negative feelings for his father. And also, I don't want him to grow with resentment for his father. (Note - my X, as much as he was *(*&(* in our M, is a good father... so far).
Above all, he will really understand nothing.

If you think kids blame themselves... yes you are right, BUT they might blame themselves even if they know about A ("if dad/mom loved me enough, mom/dad wouldn't go for a 'stranger' and ruin our family", one of samples...)

However, I keep everything in one (BIG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) folder (all correspondence with his dad, during A, D, and after) when my son is big enough, I won't say anything, just let him to read all... and make his own conclusions...
(I cannot avoid a part of my contribution to his A, nor I want... for I learnt from it a lot...)
And I want my son to learn - for any action there is a consequence... and responsibility that has to be taken...



And, IMO, a person should know if that would work or not BEFORE they decide to go for it... (if they are type to go that far, that is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Otherwise, what have you got?
(You will make sad people they like you, and happy people they don't like you... no good either way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)



And again, don't mind me to disagree, I think this last ring (i.e. a couple of last ones) should be exchanged for - work on yourself, make yourself again attractive, wanted and better than any other person - to your S.

WAT,


So, where is 'satisfaction' then... if not in just 'revenge'? ("Now everyone knows WS is a **(&)&, and all is his fault not mine", "Let's see how you like this now", etc.)

Btw, it doesn't have to end up not married...
Affairs have their 'circle of life'... sometimes the one just have to be patient enough... they most of times die by themselves anyway...
And that is contra to make contra productive steps... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I have never been financially dependant on XH, I could support 3 kids with no problem, therefore, have plenty for just one I do have).
But, there are (many?) women they are.
So, if 'the last circle' doesn't work re: A and they D, but WS lost his job, it'll take some time to find a new one, etc., ... how much CS would be? What could WS provide for children if jobless, or paid for a job that they are not qualified for?
Life goes on after D, we know that...
That's what I meant...


Well, it's my personal choice not to want THAT as the ONLY chance, right?


No, not at all.
Just thinking of other (IMO better) ways to smash their 'fog'.


I agree. It breaks their 'fantasy world' they are in, illusions, secret (and therefore) sweet fruits and passion... and that can be done by exposing to WS, his parents/close members of family that WS respects and love... And if their words to him won't get his 'rationality' back, why would some employer (especially in cases a WS won't be fired for that...) be more sucessful in that?
We know how often people cheat nowadays, right?
Many employers included...

Again, "waste" energy on working on yourself, would be my advice...
(For people they are still married and trying to keep it that way, that is...)