Anyone think this can be recovered? Any ideas how, what to do?

I've only recently found these pages, there is whole lot here I could have used a few months (and years) ago.

This whole thing is a mess and I'm not sure I can make enough sense of it in this post but here goes (it'll probably be a novel so thanks for reading):

Some background:

About 8-1/2 years ago I started dating a co-worker, a few months later we moved in together and about a year later bought a house together.

At the time we met I was quite athletic - running, biking, rollerblading, sailing, skiing and going to the gym a few times a week.

She wasn't into these, just did her own Jane Fonda tape in the living room once in awhile. I had tried to persuade to go to the gym with me but she refused. She also refused to try skiing again, citing a previous bad experience. She also didn't know how to swim.

Over the next few years I slowly dropped my activity level, preferring to spend the time with her. After awhile we got her a bike and did sometimes go biking together. I suggested swimming lessons from time to time but she didn't bite. A bit later she started getting into running (which I supported whole-heartedly) though I didn't start up again right away. Her running improved her fitness and confidence and she started talking about doing a tri-athlon someday. She started doing some more biking with some friends from work. I wasn't quite ready to join her I guess but I supported her in this too. In fact I lured her into the bike shop and when she started looking at the road bikes said we should get it for her Christmas present. In February that year we found out she was pregnant (not entirely unexpected but not really planned.) We talked a bit about it and realized it would be difficult and re-affirmed out commitment to each other and to raising this child together. She was able to take a year of maternity leave and I took 10 weeks part way through hers.
She struggled a bit with confidence in herself and didn't have enough milk so we supplemented breast-feeding with formula. I was still at work in the early months but I did my best to constantly reassure her and looked after the supplemental feedings and bottle sterilizing and lots of other things. There wasn't much more I felt I could do, I would have if I could.
We had one fight - first ever really that I can recall shortly after my mother had for some unknown reason told this post-partum new mother all about her own issues with my father. We had been grocery shopping and it had been a very crowded and frustrating experience with people rude and blocking aisles, etc. The last straw for me was when we had finally gotten through the checkout, packed all our food into boxes and started heading for the door. A boorish individual completely ignored the fact that I was in motion, pushing a precariously laden cart with a very active infant and completely blocked the aisle directly in front of me. My hands were full, I was already frustrated - I didn't want to make a scene but I did reach over and kick his cart out the way. My spouse immediately lit into me (and did make a scene) and wouldn't stop - out into the parking lot and across to the next store. I tried telling her this was not a good time and to leave me alone for a bit but she kept at it. It seemed she had decided that I was my father and that somehow she was going to turn into my mother. Later that evening we yelled some more, guess we didn't really resolve it the last I left it with was that she and my daughter were the most important parts of my life and that I love them both very much before we went to bed.
After a few months we had some more friction when a large contingent of her family visitied (her parents, three sisters, one brother in law and an 18-month old and a 2-year old) most for a month. The biggest argument and I was very angry about this was that she had neglected to arrange any health insurance for her parents, one sister and 18-month old.
The other friction which I didn't realize I had created was to tell her that I felt crowded and needed a little space in the house sometimes for myself - to me I was just venting and didn't expect anything of it but she actually told her family and kept everyone in the rec room a lot after that. Honestly I at the time I was puzzled and hurt but was also busy with work and didn't entirely clue in.
Another thing which I should have realized and dealt with in our previous trip to visit her family was that when with them she tended to mostly abandon me and get deep into conversation (chinese which I don't understand) with the rest of her family. While her sisters translated and generally included their respective partners she did not include me. This repeated itself on this visit. Maybe she didn't realize she was doing it but I felt quite left out but since she only sees her family rarely I let it pass and fended for myself. Later she complained that I ignored her and family during the visit.

During the 10 weeks I had off later we spent a lot of time together going on bike rides and taking our daughter to the park and other places. Things seemed really good again.
Then I had to go back to work so we couldn't do these rides together anymore - I always volunteered to watch our daughter so that she could go on rides by herself or with friends again or running. And I didn't ask anything in return either - it didn't occur to me besides I knew she needed to recover some of her previous freedom and I wanted her to be happy.

A little while later she had to come back to work too. It was a tough transition for her and a challenging new role too. At first she complained to me quite often and said she hated her job. Later she seemed to be getting back into it. Sometime after that (and I didn't see it at the time) our relationship started a gradual decline, about 2 years ago now.

What I have found out since is that she started discussing our issues with her boss (with whom she has worked most of her career) and considered a good friend. (He is married with two children around 10 years old.)
At some point in this he expressed his attraction for her and claimed he had felt this since they had first met. He then told her she should try to work things out with me but if she couldn't to come to him (some friend!). She said nothing to me of this at the time. A while later she came home one day and told me she was in line for a promotion at work but that it would mean more time, even some evenings and weekends. Being in the same type of job as her and knowing how professionally well regarded she is at work (an insecurity of hers I realize now) I tried to explain this to her and that promotion for her is not a function of more working hours (she already works plenty extra) and put emphasis on how good she is at the job. I think this fell on deaf ears, she just kept saying how this was her chance and she was going to go for it. Guess I should have clued in a bit here too but didn't, too stressed with work and child and not enough hours, and maybe too naive too.

Again in hindsight this was followed with some increasingly passive agressive behaviour on her part to which I responded (unwittingly) with frustration as the support I was used to was being unknowingly pulled from under me. Meantime he suddenly took up running with her group at lunch time. I was still playing catch up (to her speed and distance) on the treadmill and a little trail running at home in the evenings so I didn't see this for what it was either. As the fall came it was increasingly difficult for me to find her at the end of the work day - she wasn't at her desk or in the lab or any other normal places. Turns out she was mostly locked in conference rooms with her boss in some love-in. Yet through all this she was still loving most of the time and continued to call me love of her life as always and we continued to make suggestive jokes and tease each other. But I was definitely feeling stressed - I thought at the time it was mostly work but now I suspect it was the situation at home.

Anyway, in mid-November it became a full affair with the two of them disappearing for entire afternoons and 'working' some evenings. I know because that is the time at which she really started to withdraw. Guess it was a mistake to let her have room then but I did. Just before Christmas she provoked a big fight with me - at work I couldn't find her so went and picked up our daughter from daycare at the last minute then came back and still couldn't find her (no prizes for guessing what was going on) for another half hour at least. When I finally did I didn't even feel like fighting about it, I just pretty much ignored her the whole way home (yes, petty I know but I was angry and didn't want to fight in front of our daughter.) She started yelling at me after our daughter went to bed - the odd thing was it was exactly the same things that she had blown up at me with the time before. I tried to tell her again how I felt about her and our daughter but I don't think anything would have gotten through to her at this point. She ignored me for a few days - I was very hurt and it took awhile for me to try to approach her. When I did she confessed the affair. I thought for awhile and told her I loved her that with time and I could forgive this, and asked her to end it so we could work things out together. She refused initially - I asked her to get away from both of us for a few days and think things over then give me an answer. She didn't get away (in fact I have since found out she was with him nearly every day) but at length told me she had ended the affair and would try to work things out. That lasted all of a day. She talked about moving out, I asked her to stay. She did but her behaviour towards me was distant, stiff and formal at best. Mostly she ignored my attempts to talk to her. She decided in the midst of this to take up skiing (how I wish she had done this years ago) and we went skiing together a few times, once or twice I felt like we were getting closer to being able to work together but then we'd have to go back to work and it would be right back where it started though the affair was definitely losing its gloss she kept hanging on. She started giving him ultimatums - stop sleeping with your wife, leave your wife, decide now. And every time he would pacify her with another trinket and slick line - be patient, trying to reconcile with his wife, considering the impact of divorce, etc. This went on for four more months then he convinced her to move out (I tried to convince her not to) and and moved out himself (which surprised me). Somewhere in there he managed to hurt himself with the running without training and had to stop, she managed to hurt herself a little overtraining but recovered.
Through all this she kept telling me this was true love, love she had never felt before, her chance and she was going to go for it (yes, exact same line as with the promotion, etc. But the very next day she came and told me he had let her down that he thought there was too much baggage, that they couldn't have a relationship. Again a little while later it was back on again. Then he claimed that he was trying to reconcile with his wife (again). At this point she has told me that it was completely over at the end of May (a couple of weeks ago she claimed it was over in January). I don't know for sure but I have a pretty good clue that it wasn't over in May at all and saw them together for at least an hour again just a couple of weeks ago. My guess is they have gone back underground but it is only a guess, maybe I'm too suspicious. Did I mention that he has had affairs before? I don't think his wife knew about them. I only found out recently.

Other things I should mention - she blew off her closest friend as this all started and only talked to her once to tell her what was going on just after she moved out at the start of May. She hasn't talked to her since.
In fact the only friends she hasn't blown off are the ones who don't disagree with or question her decisions.

Any time I try to tell her how I feel about her she gets angry with me and tells me there is no relationship, that she doesn't love me, that its been eight months and I should just move on.
We both partook of some (I think very poor) counselling early in the year which has only reinforced her, telling her she has to make a decision only for herself (selfish?) and never questioning the affair and continued clinging to the affair. She constantly brings this up yelling "Listen to your counsellour, What did your counsellour tell you?" (Actually I never told her what my counsellour said so I think she's projecting a bit).
Not only that but her arguments start jumping all over the place - why did we have our own accounts (neglecting our joint account), this couple just has one account, why do we have to pay for things equally (I don't understand this one). Then onto physical activity - she wants someone who shares her love of it (somewhat ironic given our history) not to mention the fact that I did start trying to catch up to the running and biking but it does take time. Then she'll yell at me telling me I haven't changed at all that she can't go back to me and be a better person for yourself not me. Telling me I am just a negative person (because I don't see any positive in this whole mess or in separating?) Telling me I am only thinking of my self, that it is all about me (quite ironic I think). Then asking do I take responsibility - at this point I don't know quite what it is she wants me to take responsibility for, again she really seems to believe that I am my father (I'm not) and that I am entirely to blame for the whole situation. It seems to me to see a change in me (which I am more than willing to make) she would have to give us a chance to reconcile and to attempt to resolve the issues that let us vulnerable to the affair (yes, we both made too many withdrawals from the love bank and both engaged in bad behaviour.)

Given that this is a very small town and that there aren't any other employment opportunities (type of job, career prospects and money to continue to support our daughter) even similar within a reasonable commute I've tried to suggest as a compromise that we both more to another centre to give us equal opportunity to put this behind us and move on with our lives. But to this she says I am still trying to control her (something I never did) that I should just adjust. Then she suggested I should get a job at a local manufacturing plant (nothing near what I do or make.) My feeling is that despite what she says, despite her claims to be enjoying the single life and despite his claims to be attempting to reconcile with his wife she is still addicted to the affair. Then she jumped again, claiming the calender I put together (since it had to be done) to plan our childs shared custody was just another example of me controlling her. She got heated about my having our daughter for the August and September long weekends but didn't even clue in that she had her for her 3rd birthday. She the yelled at me for not bringing our daughter to see her the day I got back from the travel part of my vacation this summer and making her wait another 3 days (even though this and my itinary was in the calendar long ago and she had plenty of time and opportunity to discuss it with me before.)

Should also mention this is/was a common-law marriage - she had asked a couple of times if we were going to get married but it never seemed important to her. Adding to the irony of this whole situation I was starting to look at engagement rings and wanted to propose to her on her birthday but that was after she really started to withdraw and it just didn't feel right.

This is affecting every part of my life - everything that is important to me is damaged, my love, my family, my job, even my health - the other day I had a really bad round of hives after trying to talk to her, first time since I was about 12.

Maybe I'm just stupid but I still love her very deeply, I know she is hurting and probably pretty messed up by all of this but I still believe our family is worth fighting for - for our daughter, for me and for her.

But I don't know what to do. I can't get her away from him. And I don't know how to get through to her. The only thing I can think of is to talk to his wife - since he is claiming to be trying to reconcile she might have some leverage to help truly end the affair permanantly.

Again, thanks for reading and any thoughts or help you can offer.

PJW

Welcome to marriagebuilders! Glad you have found us.

When in an affair, people find faults with their spouse - it helps them justify their awful behavior in their own minds. So no matter what the history, or how fast you ran, it wouldn't make any difference.

Your best course of action is the expose the affair to her boss's wife. That will very likely end it.

It you don't expose it, your marriage will probably end. No matter what the cost, she must have no contact with this man for your relationship to have a chance.

Thanks.

I figured out the justification part awhile ago - her arguments just got too specious and attacked just about everything in our relationship, she got as far as never having loved me which I know is ridiculous. Not that it helps me much.

Thing is her boss's (ex-boss now, employer thought a reporting relationship unethical though apparently attached boss coming on to attached employee doesn't break any law and is therefore perfectly ethical???) wife does know - he moved out and convinced my spouse to move out back in May allegedly so they could be together then the very next day he told my spouse they couldn't have a relationship because there was too much baggage. He's been playing her - reeling her in then pushing her away since it all started. I don't know if his wife realizes they are still in frequent contact. For that matter I don't know if she and her husband are actually trying to reconcile or if that is just another of his lies.

In December he couldn't commit because he was apparently still trying to figure out how to tell his wife, in January/February was pretending to try to work things out with his wife (but refused even to his wife and counsellor to stop seeing my spouse, so she told me), in March I believe he couldn't commit because he was contemplating whether he could live with divorce, in April my spouse had to move out to show him her commitment, ...

We don't talk much anymore - I just can't get through to her at all.

In fact as I was typing this, she just stomped over to my office, threw our daughter's bag in and stomped off without even a word. Seems to me she is directing all of her anger at me too.

But her latest claim (amidst all the same justifications) is that the affair has now been over since the end of May. That he is trying to reconcile with his wife (again). Given that I saw them together in his office for over an hour just a couple of weeks ago (August) it obviously isn't over. And I suspect there is more. Plus she seems to think they can continue to be good friends - she is still on the hook and can't or won't get off. She still wears the jewellery that he has given her each time he reels her in.

I know she is angry, I'm sure she is hurting, I guess she probably feels guilty but I love her and care deeply about her.

What can I do? I don't know how to get them separated we all spend over 40 hours a week in the same building and it is killing me.

Thanks,
PJW

Despite being exposed in January (and I know to be faltering ever since) the affair doesn't seem to be ended -can't get them separated plus they both moved out in May. Most recent thing my WS told me is that he is trying to work things out with his wife. I suspect she is still deeply fogged - pretty much borne out by her continued conflicting justification arguments.

I spoke with his wife briefly last night, we both recognize how 'textbook' the A is and both want the same thing - we're going to meet for a chat (at a neutral venue) tomorrow.

Thing is although I'm sure I will learn some new truths about the affair and her view of his alleged "working on his family" and can share most of what I know with her I'm not sure what else we can accomplish.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

ll,

It seems to me you have been in plan A for awhile. Have you read the articles on this site? If not do so and get familiar with plan A and plan B. It seems to me it is time for plan B, and also a formalized situation with your daughter. Go see a lawyer. You say you are common-in-law spouses now. Make sure that is legally so or it is not.

Then have drawn up official custody documents concerning your daughter, no more playing games, no more uncertainty. You are hurting your daughter if these things are too flexible. Further, give that it is her boss having the affair with her, there are legal ramifications and the company is very likely at risk. Speak with a lawyer about this as well.

You need to get off of dead center and quit discussing much of anything with her, as well as drawing your boundaries. Do you have boundaries? What are they with respect to how you expect to be treated by your W, your friends, your family? You need to know them, and then state them, and then enforce them.

Her anger will get worse as YOU begin to take action, but IF there is any chance for this, you starting to take action, define your boundaries, and act on them will alert her to the impending loss. Right now she has and can do as she wishes, with no consequences, thus you get the attitude you have gotten. She feels entitled, she has no respect for you, and she is in the fog.

Time to step out of the fog yourself, and start to see what is really going on, protect yourself legally, and protect your child from this nonsense.

Do these things first, because frankly as long as the affair continues you have no chance, so there is no reason for you to be trying to encourage her to do anything. You job is to await the ending of the affair if you want to, or move on. You can shine light on the affair, and that may hasten it.

You also need to consider going to the boss's boss and discussing what is going on. Those two should NOT be together during work.

As far as I can tell you have done little, yet. You can do a lot more. Read up, get a plan, and get after it.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for reading my post.

I have been reading as much as I can on this site and others. I'm not in plan A anymore - I limit interaction with WW to the absolute minimum required for my daughter. But having found MB later than the ideal I don't know if the plan A (not having known it was a plan A I was doing at the time) was enough. Guess I need to make a formal plan B anyway.

I haven't tried to encourage anything in WS since before D, not sure what your comment there was directed at.

I have seen a lawyer. I have not yet acted on this. Too bad adultery isn't a case for full custody.

At work he was moved to another role in January (part of initial exposure). Unfortunately it was on a very closely related project so they continued to have that excuse to interact. Recently he was moved to another more separate role but again A is still active. Employer thinks they have done their legal duty.

With the number of times OM has played her, telling her it is over then reeling her in again I don't know how she can remain in the fog and continue being exploited but she is - I don't think any amount of reality is going to wake her up plus she has found her enabling friends. And I do know the A has to end for us to have any chance but it is exposed, OMW knows it still continues at work despite OMs claim to her it is over and they are working on their M, not sure what else I can do to shine light on it.

I think I'm going to write to her sisters and parents - they know there is an affair but not the details so I want to share facts, suggest this site for insight and enlist their support though that is probably unlikely.

I have told her that we're not going to be friends if she continues down this path. The other day when she tried to call me over (in the middle of her conversation with OM, what world does she live in) I just shook my head and walked on.

At this point I'm still here and trying to hang on because it reminds me everytime I see my daughter that she doesn't deserve this at all. And that only seeing your own child half the time is just plain wrong (and how that can disappear in WWs fog I really don't know, it is killing me). But I'm on the edge, I can't sustain this.

I appreciate your thoughts,
ll

You are looking for a magic bullet that will fix this all in one shot. I'm sorry, but one does not exist.

MB is a program, not unlike AA, a complete and total concept that needs to be put into place 100%, and not just picking and choosing those things that are easy and comfortable to do.

Start from scratch. Purchase and read "Surviving an Affair". You will learn all about the dynamics of an affair, and how to help bring it to an end. You will learn about self improvement, how to evaluate what YOU bring to the marriage that may need improvement. Gaining this knowledge in conjunction with relying on the kind and knowledgeable folks here on these forums can be a GREAT weapon in winning this battle.

But you need to "buy in" to the concept, understanding that much of it is counterintuitive, and sometimes difficult.

Read everything you can on these sites. See what others are doing that works. See also how utterly difficult a WS can be. See how to counter with your own actions that will possible compell your WS to re-evaluate hers.

No quick fix is known. Learning, taking action, getting input here on the forums, dedication and assistance from a higher power CAN work, if you are up to the task.

Are you?

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks shattered.

I have no illusion that there is a magic bullet or quick fix - but other than the certainty that my daughter deserves better I'm not sure there is any hope left in this situation.

And I don't intend to pick or choose - I didn't find MB until quite recently and wish very much that I had found it months ago. I'm still learning here.

So in my uneducated bumbling after D I did expose to everyone close (but should have gone wider, fixing that now) and then spent about 5 months remarkably close to plan A, 4 months before and 1 month after she moved out - but with a few holes in it since I did not then fully understand the fog, I attempted a couple of rational discussions to my endless frustration. But aside from those lapses I continued to do activities, to invite her and accept her sometimes joining and sometimes declining the offers. I continued to support her (non-A) activities and continue to look after and build my relationship with my daughter. Basically put the emphasis on demonstrating what she stands to lose. After that I was on vacation for awhile.

When I came back from vacation I told her that I still loved her, still believed in our family but that I couldn't sustain this situation. That as long as she continued the A (she of course claimed it is over that she is on her own but I know it isn't, they still talk everyday) we have no chance and that if she continues this path we are not going to be friends either. A little while later I found MB.

I recently met with OMW (which I should have done way sooner) and exchanged information and passed on MB link to her as well.

And that is pretty much where I am now.

As far as improving me it's very hard to sort through the foggy justifications to figure out what left us vulnerable in the first place. I think the biggest was that we felt unable to spend enough time together with the pressures of work and a young child who wasn't ready for a babysitter yet and neither of us has relatives really close by to give us a break. When she was on maternity leave and I took parental leave too we spent a lot of time together and things were going really well. But almost as soon as she came back from maternity leave OM (boss) started coming on to and exploiting her in every possible way. He piled on work and schedule stress, listened to her complaints and then fed back to her that she was absolutely perfect just the way she was, then told her of his long term feelings for her, offered her promotion that he was in no position to do (along with need for extra hours and weekends...), apparently turned off phone ringers so I couldn't find her, held long meetings (with just her) at the end of the day when we needed to leave to pick up our daughter, etc. And it isn't his first affair either. So what did I do wrong? Maybe I wasn't possessive enough. I can hardly find that to be an endearing trait that I should develop.

It certainly doesn't help that I work in the same place and see them both everyday, especially that sob. I really can't understand how a married man with two children coming on to my wife at a time when we struggling through the trials of a 1 year old first child can be, "the nicest person she knows" and "treats people so well"...

Thanks again,
love_left

Another month has passed.

NC has not been reached.

Now WS is deluding/justifying that she is on her own and happier than together. Problem is she is happier than she was in the history she re-wrote in justification but has forgotten or pushed aside the real life we had together.

WS now planning a trip with DD3 (part of which I'm okay with but part is quite worrisome) and also planning to buy a house next year.

Had a conversation (or as close as it comes) with WS yesterday. I'm concerned about DD3. WS didn't bother going to her swim lesson on the weekend. DD3 was disappointed. I told WS this which sparked a discussion.
Touched on continuing A (she claims its over but that they are and will be friends), I reiterated my position. Still sounds to me like fog. OM has claimed to OMW and my WS that he wants to recover his family. My WS doesn't even see the lack of respect she gives in continuing to allow him to call her/talk to her. She was defensive about where she was during swim lesson too - out with named friends, not OM.

At one point after she mentioned the trip she was surprised to find that I would want to go again. But of course that previous trip (which at the time we both enjoyed despite a few frustrations) became one of her many justifications for the A so now it appears she really believes these things. Other than that discussion of course went nowhere - she cries anytime she talks to me of these things and either covers her ears or walks away when it gets too close to the truth. Other than my initial comment about DD3 to WS (I was a bit angry and should have calmed down first but it wasn't an AO) I did manage to keep a pretty calm approach. She was all over the map again. "I don't love you", "Why can't I just end this relationship?", "Maybe I should start drinking so I don't care any more.", "Which part of me do you want, you want this arm?", etc. I managed to keep to my position about our family and need for NC. She told me I'm stubborn too - guess that's true.

Then she tried to explain to me that they had gotten together for a long conversation a couple of weeks ago because "something had come up" - my guess that would be OMW becoming informed since the time-frame is right.

An odd thing happened awhile later - walking down the hall I passed by WS, glanced at her but just kept going (what else am I to do?) A little later she phoned to explain to me (defensively) that she had just been out to her apartment since the landlord had called and needed to go in to fix a water leak and that she hadn't just been out with OM. (I didn't even realize she had been out and had just seen OM hard at work.) Then there was a bit more of the same, I kept calm and then she hung up on me.

I think OMW is very close to D but not in a Plan B way.

So where am I? Where should I be? I really don't know. Do I need to go back and try to do a Plan A without mistakes this time? Is that even possible - and if so how, she did move out and avoids contact with me and now didn't even go to DD3's swim lesson.

Does this call signify anything?


Thanks,
love_left

Last night my car broke - after I arranged for it to be towed I tried a number of friends but in the end the only person I could get hold of was WS. She let me borrow her car for a day or two. This morning I called to see if she needed the car (rain in the forecast) but she had already left on her bike to take DD3 to daycare. It started raining so I went by the daycare to offer her a ride. At first she refused but then changed her mind so we put her bike in the back and drove to work. She didn't seem very comfortable sitting in the car with me - didn't even take off her bike helmet - we talked about my car and the course I'm taking and I thanked her for lending me the car.

I really don't know what I'm doing.

love_left