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Hi guys! Thought you might enjoy this NY Times article about Pope Benedict's upcoming seminar with his former doctoral students. It will be a weekend discussion on evolution. I was a little hesitant to post this, since I know it will re-open a debate that didn't really get anywhere last time. Nonetheless, it's interesting reading. The full article is here: Professor-Turned-Pope Leads a Seminar on Evolution. Here are a few quotes from the article: (Okay, I ended up taking most of it except the back-and-forth commentary from Americans who are on either side of the evolution debate. I figure we can do that part ourselves.) Is this merely another yearly seminar? Or is the leader of the world’s billion Roman Catholics signaling that he may join in earnest the emotional debate over evolution, intelligent design and all that might mean for politics and faith, especially in the United States?
There is no way to know immediately, though many church experts believe that the pope has fewer problems with the science of evolution than with its use to wipe God more cleanly from a secular world. No document will be published afterward, no news conference given.
But the seminar comes after a year particularly fraught over the issue of evolution, in America — with the fight over intelligent design — and in the church. Last year a leading cardinal, who will speak at the meeting, expressed doubts that Darwinism and Catholicism were compatible, and the pope declared the creation of the universe an “intelligent project.”
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The meeting opened Friday morning at Castel Gandolfo, a papal palace that stands as a sort of symbol for the church’s coexistence with science. Castel Gandolfo houses a world-class observatory — with a telescope that Pope John Paul II enjoyed looking through — built a century after the church acknowledged its mistake in condemning Galileo for his postulation that planets revolve around the sun.
Similarly, the church has moved from neutrality to something like acceptance of evolutionary theory, though drawing a thick bottom line that God is the ultimate creator.
In 1996, Pope John Paul declared evolution “more than a hypothesis,” and in 2004 as Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict endorsed the scientific view that the earth is roughly four billion years old and that species changed through evolution. Indeed, there has been no credible scientific challenge to the idea that evolution, the foundation of modern biology, explains the diversity of life on earth.
Given that history, scientists and church experts say they cannot imagine the study session ending with any alignment of the pope or the church with intelligent design or American-style creationism, which often posits that Earth is only about 6,000 years old.
“I suspect they will try to avoid it,” said the Rev. Joseph Fessio, an American priest and former student of the pope’s, who is taking part in the meeting, “because intelligent design has been represented either as a religion, which it is not, or as a science, which I think is indefensible.”
But Father Fessio and others say the pope, based on his statements and writings, remains deeply concerned specifically about the contention among some supporters of modern evolution that the theory refutes any role of God in creation.
“Given this ideology, the temptation or danger is real to say that you don’t have any need of God, that the spirit doesn’t exist,” said Msgr. Fiorenzo Facchini, an Italian priest and paleoanthropologist. “And the church should keep guard against this and denounce it.”
Monsignor Facchini wrote an influential article this year in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, praising as “correct” the decision in January by a judge in Pennsylvania that intelligent design should not be taught as a scientific alternative to evolution.
Nonetheless he cautioned that the mechanisms of evolution are not all known — and that just as religion has no business in science, science should not overstep its bounds in declaring that God could have no role in creation.
That is a similar line of thinking presented over many years by Benedict, whose main preoccupation is growing secularism, and it is likely to be a central part of the discussions this weekend.
In his book “Truth and Tolerance” (Ignatius Press, 2004), written when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, he wrote of what he called an effort to turn evolution into a “universal philosophy” that explained all of life.
“This evolutionary ethic that inevitably takes as its key concept the model of selectivity, that is, the struggle for survival, the victory of the fittest, successful adaptation, has little comfort to offer,” he wrote. “Even when people try to make it more attractive in various ways, it ultimately remains a bloodthirsty ethic.”
After John Paul died in April 2005, Benedict signaled a similar concern in his homily at the Mass in which he was formally installed as pope.
“We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution,” he said. “Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary.”
But some students of the pope say his doubts go deeper into the science of evolutionary theory. In his writings he has echoed the questions of anti-Darwinians about how evolution can transform one species into another.
The pope “does not accept at face value the scientific theory,” said Dominique Tassot, director of the French group, the Center for Studies and Prospectives on Science. “He wants to make people reconsider the question.”
As might be expected from a German professor, all sides of the evolution question will get a hearing, though with an emphasis on skepticism. The seminar on Friday reportedly began with a presentation by Peter Schuster, an eminent molecular biologist, president of the Austrian Academy of Sciences and a defender of evolution.
There will be three other speakers to the study group, most notably Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna, who sparked a contentious debate last year after he wrote an Op-Ed article for The New York Times questioning evolution. The article was submitted by the same public relations firm used by the Discovery Institute.
The two other speakers are Professor Robert Spaemann, a German philosopher who has criticized evolution as a full philosophical theory; and the Rev. Paul Elbrich, a Jesuit priest and scientist whose work on proteins questions whether chance alone could play the decisive role in evolution.
The pope’s annual seminars do not shy away from difficult topics. Last year the issue under discussion was Islam.
Sunny Day, Sweeping The Clouds Away...
Just J --
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I have been following this ever since Coyne was removed as the Vatican astronomer a week or so ago. In the interim, it's been reported Coyne has cancer, casting some doubt that he was "removed" because of his support of evolution. Who knows the truth? What's that commandment about bearing false witness? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Anyone who thinks that the Pope's conclusion on this matter carries any real legitimacy could do well to Goggle > "Galileo". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT ----------------- Lions eat the slow gazelles first.
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You have to understand that Galileo was a jerk, and the pope at the time was also a jerk. The whole conflict could have been avoided with a little less jerkiness on both sides. In fact, the Vatican was on its way to accepting Galileo's theories -- but an egotistical scientist insisted on playing power games with an egotistical pontiff.
And both science and religion have suffered as a result.
It wasn't a case of science vs. religion -- it was jerk vs. jerk.
See Collin Wilson's "Star Seekers" for the full, unexpurgated story of this unnecessary confrontation.
"Virtue -- even attempted virtue -- brings light; indulgence brings fog." -- C.S. Lewis
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So if Benedict embraces ID, is he a jerk or just uninformed?
But the "jerk" story is a new one on me. "Star Seekers" is a novel, not a non-fiction account of Galileo and the Pope. And Colin Wilson is not whom I think you want to hold up as an authority on this. He's is a self proclaimed "authority" on the paranormal. He regards himself primarily as a philosopher concerned with the meaning of human existence.
JMHO
WAT
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Wrong. "Starseekers" is a non-fiction account about how science and religion split, to the detriment of both. Several pages deal with the a-holiness of the whole conflict.
Yes, I'm not really a big Colin Wilson fan either -- but this is simply a recounting the historical event. Much has been recounted about the pope's jerkiness, but little on Galileo's unnecessary belligerance and defiance, not based on defending the truth, but simply on a personality problem. This same belligerance makes him easy to romanticize, as in brownhair's quote above.
I didn't doublecheck Wilson's account with my own research, but I have no reason to believe it's faulty.
"Virtue -- even attempted virtue -- brings light; indulgence brings fog." -- C.S. Lewis
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Non- fiction? Starseekers
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Yup. Sometimes even websites are wrong, WAT.
I've read at least part of the book. They obviously haven't.
"Virtue -- even attempted virtue -- brings light; indulgence brings fog." -- C.S. Lewis
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Well, I never heard of it, so I obviously can't comment from direct evidence.
Regardless, even if both the Pope and Galileo were jerks, or just one, or neither, Galileo stands as an example of what goes wrong when the church runs amuck and delves into areas it has no business. Hopefully the current Pope won't turn back the hands of the church's time. If he does, no one will be served - and many will be dis-served. Galileo deja vu.
JMHO
WAT
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Well, I think that is Wilson's contention. That the whole way we frame the question -- either/or, this-or-that, religion-or-science -- goes back to the enormous post-Galileo split in our thinking. That until then, science and religion had worked together to their mutual benefit, and their p.o.v.'s were not seen as oppositional.
In which case, the whole way we frame the question is defective and wrong.
"Virtue -- even attempted virtue -- brings light; indulgence brings fog." -- C.S. Lewis
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If you don't mind, I'll take a pass on this.
I could really care less what the Pope thinks, or for that matter what the problems were with Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church.
The Scripture does not "contend" that the solar system revolves around the planet Earth and it never did. Now if you want to talk "philosophically," if the universe is infinite in size, ANY point, including planet Earth, could be chosen as the "center," but then so could any other point.
As WAT has continued to show, he has extreme animosity for anything other than Evolution as the "cause" of everything being here and will not consider "in the beginning God created..."
That is his privelege, unless the radical Islamists win, and then freedom of thought will be a "thing of the evolutionary past."
I happen to believe in the Word of God as inerrant and inspired, and it reveals to us what God did "in the beginning." WAT rejects the Scriptures, along with Jesus Christ, and prefers humanistic and secular "answers."
In the final analyis, either WAT, and other evolutionists, are right or the Word of God is right. There can be only one "right."
One last time, though. Evolution is not a theory, it is a model that attempts to "explain" origins and the diversity of life that we see. It interprets facts available with the preconceived notion that all can be explained by "evolution" and dismisses "out of hand" any attempt to interpret the very same facts from a "creation model" viewpoint simply because it denies out of hand a "Creator" and supplants God with so-called natural processes and random chance as the "cause" of everything.
For anyone who rejects Jesus Christ and the Word of God, there is NO alternative other than evolution to explain "how things got here" and "why we ARE here."
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That is his privelege, unless the radical Islamists win, and then freedom of thought will be a "thing of the evolutionary past." And what will become of thought if the Christian Supremists "win"? WAT ---------------------- We are here to procreate and survive - any other reason is a product of human imagination.
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I was a little hesitant to post this, since I know it will re-open a debate that didn't really get anywhere last time. Nonetheless, it's interesting reading. [/quote] JJ - thanks for the article. It is educational to read the viewpoints expressed in the article, and on the forum. far
foundareason D: March 2006 (xw - multiple a's)
I have found a NEW REASON!!!! A Treasure!!
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... the radical Islamists ... Every time I hear that expression I always ask myself if the person saying it uses it as differentiation or as redundancy. And I usually assume the latter given the context. It just seems to be the American mindset.
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E por si muove is more about this discussion it will go round and round and just keep doing that.
Because anyone taking a strong POV here will not change it unless they change their complete belief system - which is rather unlikely <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
I don't like people ridiculing/attacking each other's belief systems because they believe they are right and the other is wrong. I think it's a complete waste of time and energy. That's my POV.
I would suggest that it's more important to consider what we do with Mother Earth NOW. If you believe she was lovingly created by the Creator (no matter how long ago) He/She asked us to take care of her;
If you believe it was an accident, a coincidence what a wonderful and rare accident it is to be treasured and not tred upon
As per the words of one of my favorite persons: [color:"purple"]"The earth is like a mother. No matter what we do to her, she endures it. That is why we should moderate ourselves." - the Dalai Lama -[/color]
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Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is his privelege, unless the radical Islamists win, and then freedom of thought will be a "thing of the evolutionary past."
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And what will become of thought if the Christian Supremists "win"?
WAT Gee WAT, we've had this sort of discussion several times before, so I guess "one more time" wouldn't hurt. So to answer your question: "And what will become of thought if the Christian Supremists "win"?", I'd put your question right up there with "what will become of thought if the Secular Elitists "win?"" By the way, which group is engaged in "mind control" today, the Secular Elitists or the Christian Supremists? One look at the schools today should be enough to answer that question despite any "protest" from any secularist. To answer your question more directly, no one gets "put to death" as an "infidel." You are free to choose whatever you wish to believe. Love, "as Christ loves the church," would be the standard of behavior. Eternity with God would be the "end result." In reality, the "Christian Supremists," even as pergoratively as you wish to attempt to use the term, will "win" when Christ returns and the earth is temporarily turned over to those "left behind" under the rule of someone "not so nice," who will persecute and even kill those who do not accept the then ruler of the earth. When the final judgement day arrives, all those who are not "Christian Supremists," again as you wish to slander born again Christians, will spend the rest of time in He11 and will be excluded from the "new heavens and the new earth." The "Christian Supremist" position on thought, since you apparently want to know how it would differ from the Islamic terrorists we are dealing with today, is this; "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
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Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... the radical Islamists ...
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Every time I hear that expression I always ask myself if the person saying it uses it as differentiation or as redundancy. And I usually assume the latter given the context. It just seems to be the American mindset. Okay, piojitos, have you perhaps seen the latest video presentation of Islamic thought from al-Zawahiri and their new propagandist ( the American Islamist from the great liberal hotbed of California)? "Convert to Islam or die" Or how about Steve Centanni and his cameraman who were forced by their Palestian abductors, forced at gunpoint, to convert to Islam? Get your head out of the sand, it's not an "American mindset," it's a "Freedom mindset."
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FH - I recommend you take a step back and be thankful that the "secular elitists" are currently calling the shots in the US.
Be very, very thankful.
And I bet you'd be wise to hope it stays this way.
Because I think you'd like the possible alternatives even less.
The reason I say this is because if this country became a theocracy as some want it to, it very, very likely wouldn't be the flavor you desire. The number of people who believe the universe is 6000 years old, that all the critters or "kinds" actually fit on the Ark, and that humans and dinosaurs co-habitated is vanishingly small. For good reason.
So, count your blessings. Because of the "secular elitists" you are able to speak freely of your faith and practice it as you wish. A secular society is exactly what you should strive for. It's faith neutral - owing allegience to no particular faith, recognizing all faiths' right to exist peacefully. Otherwise, you might find yourself arguing against fundamentalists of a different kind. And they won't be as accomodating.
JMHO
WAT
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With all due respect, WAT, that isn't what I was talking about, and you know it. Furthermore, it was NOT the secular elitists who have given us freedom of religion in the USA, it was predominantly believers who understood the hazards of a "State" religion. The secular elitists of today consider "separation of church and state" (which by the way is not in the Constitution) to mean "freedom FROM religion," not freedom of religion. The ONLY prohibition is the establishment of a "State Religion," but they have no problem with Atheism being the "State Religion." Likewise, with no proof of evolution, they insist that ONLY evolution can explain how things "got here." Very balanced of them in their brainwashing attempts. Otherwise, you might find yourself arguing against fundamentalists of a different kind. And they won't be as accomodating. So as you can see, I already am arguing against fundamentalists of a different kind. And they aren't accomodating at all. JMHO FH
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So what do you think is the solution to your perceived problem in the US?
WAT
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