Hi, ChaCha, sorry I haven't been around...I've been really busy...Sweetie...It's just my opinion but I don't think that you and H have to agree to follow the rules or go to MC to be in recovery...now I'm holding off on saying that I'm in recovery because I'm scare too...my fear! All mine!

H and I have been doing well, if you check out my thread you can see where we are...but not the point...I think that you have to go with the flow...I take MB as a guideline to follow...yes, I would love to adhere to them strickly but this is real life...sometimes it doesn't always happen that way....

H and I will probably never go to MC...why because H has always been against therapy...it's a belief that I had to know as his well before the A...so, what are my options?

Well, I can tell you this, it's to led my example, how do I learn that by posting here, and I talk to H about it...I tell him for example: I wasn't very respectful to you when I said this...I wanted to say I'm sorry and will try to caught myself in the future...

H is coming around...I'm listening and repeating (or trying hard too...LOL) and I find that he's trying to do the same...instead of holding my feelings inside...I'm speaking my mind and dealing with what H has to say...taking all of his stuff as information and processing it...dealing with the here and now...not waiting until tomorrow or a week from now to say you know when you did this...it made me feel like this or whatever...here and now...no bars hold...I'm still protecting him, being O&H, giving my UA, and caring for him...

It's just different now...we're not reacting to each other as often...he tried to be a jerk today, but I wouldn't let it get to me...all about miscommunication...instead of giving in and okaying his behavior...I heard what he had to say...I said what I needed too and ten minutes later it was better...

What do you see when you look at the whole picture? Do you see that FWH is trying? Are you hopeful for the future? Do you feel that you can be patience, learn from your behavior and led by example?

What I'm asking is for you to ask yourself, can I live by MBs rules without FWH "knowing" them and move towards recovery? Are you scare of that word like I am? I'm also scare that I'll be taken for a fool one day but I have to look past that fear by staying present and still more often than I have in the past.

Are you aware of yourself when you do things now compared to say three months ago, last Christmas, a year?

You have done a wonderful job of keeping your head up...doing your best with what you have at the time...learning new tools to make YOU happy...lots of amazing change...Keep up the good work!

Hi guys! Mimi and Rin thanks for posting I don't have time to respond to those posts right now but I will try later.

I wanted to give a brief update;
FWH's actions speak louder than words...the sun pollar is almost complete..the walls are painted the windows have been fixed and we even went and shopped for window treatments together. We still have to do a little more trim painting and have someone in to sand and refinish the wood floor. FWH has really dedicated himself to this project.

My parents just celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary. My sister and I put together a brunch at a local golf club.
We had about 22...family members, close friends and members of the bridal party. All on my side of the family. My parents had invited FWH to attend.....and he did! We went as a family. I know it must have been very difficult facing all the in-laws. Family always cared for him a great deal and they have been hurt by the A as well. He has avoided most of them for the last 2 years. But hugs and kisses were passed around and they were happy he was there. He didn't say much afterward. I told him that I really appreciated him going to the party that it meant alot to me and my parents.

Around the house he has been helpful....doing his own laundry and some of mine as well. Killing spiders. (yuck!)
Stopping to pick up bottled water because we had run out.

He doesn't have the same need I have for words & conversation. I need to show him appreciation through actions.

Yes indeed, watch his actions and that will tell you where his mind is at. That was a big effort from your FWH to face the family like he did and that speaks volumes.

Keep going CC and your FWH will suprise you one day...I really believe this.

You rock! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm so happy for you! That sounds great...my H has been doing the same thing! Actions...I love it!

Great job! I look forward to reading more great stuff! Keep up the good work!

FWH is in Puerto Rico this week. Before he left I sent him an email and invited him on a date...straight out no hinting. He replyed and accepted and added that we really need to talk. ...We need to talk...coming from him! So I asked if we could talk before he went to PR but he was too tired maybe we could talk over the phone while he was away. I'd rather do it before date night so it doesn't get R talk and date night mixed. Every night that he has called he gets off the phone before we can get into any kind of private conversation.

He returns Friday night will be here Sat & Sun the off to Boston on business M-Thurs and Friday he leaves w/ DD and friends/family for a NASCAR weekend. So Saturday I was thinking of making a pitcher of something and playing truth or dare...I'd love to get all this stuff on the table so we can finally deal w/it.

So glad that FWH is showing some effort, especially one as
significant as attending the family event ! Seems like he
was slow to start, but is coming around now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It's also great that he is initiating a talk ! I'd probably
pass out from the shock if my WH ever did that- he's always
spending so much energy on AVOIDING having to talk !

Hope the conversation will be very helpful..
Best to you
Slammed

CC, hoping your FWH's need to talk goes well. I would let listen and let him say what he feels without judging or trying to defend yourself. Hopefully he will be humble and accept responsibility for his part of all this.

Remember....actions speak!

You are doing great!
HTW

Hi, sweetheart, and good morning! I hope that I find you well today.

I really need to say thank you for your friendship, and your support! You have been wonderful!

I wanted to let you know that you are in my thoughts and prayers, wishing you the best...you deserve it!

How are you doing anyway? Still taking care of yourself? And the kids, how are they?

If I don't hear from you before the weekend, I wish you a great one! A blessed one! LOL

HI Rin,
FWH comes in from Puerto Rico tonight. Sat I am going to a craft show w/ a friend and FWH is taking the kids up to his Dad's, I will join them later Sat and we are suppose to have date night or talk night we'll see how it goes.

I probably won't be around much this weekend. When we get home I have lots of paint to scrape off windows. LOL!

FWH leaves for Boston Monday.

Have fun in your garage. I think you should definitely plan on having "lunch" at home more often.

How'd you like my idea for TV show on your thread?

HTW,
I will let him do most of the talking...I while listen intently and respectfully.

I am going to try to get him to talk about A. I really need some answers. I want to move past this. But I will let him say what he wants to say first.

Sounds like you have a plan...I wish you the best with the talk...

And you have made my day with your idea for the show...I was LOLing really good!

ChaCha -

Just saying hello - have thought about you a lot while I've bene offline. I am so rooting for you! You take Care -

Kim

Well...we never did have our "BIG" talk.

Saturday date night turned into double date w/ BIL & SIL. Which was fine w/ me...I was thinking about cancelling all together because Saturday FWH spent most of the day ignoring me....AGAIN! DS babysat the kids and the 4 of us went out and had a really good time, we don't get to go out with them very often without all the kids. I enjoyed it. It was relaxed.

FWH was attentive and talkative during dinner. Part of the conversation was very interesting. BIL brought up some local political scandal...stating the guy had been really stupid in doing what he did...that any idiot w/ an ounce of common sense would have made a better choice. Then FWH said that the time he had spent in politics(this is paraphrased.)"...its weird but there is a whole different mindset. Some scheme sounds like a really good idea that it would be beneficial...a good thing. Everybody agrees and deals are made and it turns out not to be a good thing and an outsider would see that. Being in a certain mindset you make decisions you think are good but they are really bad choices .Its like your thinking is twisted." I almost fell off my chair. This is the kind of thinking that helped him justify his A. Could the fog actually be clearing???

We stayed at the RV overnight and when we were on the way to pick up the kids from BIL's house Sunday I didn't ask if we could talk I just started. I asked why he had ignored me on Sat. He said he didn't realize that he had ignored me. I told him one of our old patterns was that when he was mad at me he would ignore me. Which I really hate. I use to be fearful of that...the rejection I guess. I told him when he ignores me now, I feel that i don't deserve to be treated that way and I don't want to be around someone who treats me like that. If he is mad at me he needs to tell me why so we can address it. I asked if he was mad at me on Sat. He said that it was obvious he was..because I didn't get XYZ done while he was in Puerto Rico. I explained that if he was angry about it he should have said something and we could have resolved it. I told him I didn't have time to do XYZ that I now work full time, take care of the kids and the house and was working on finishing the painting and XYZ was not even on my priority list. I said that we have a very high maintaince house and that had been one of my concerns when he moved out that I would not be able to keep up w/ EVERYTHING. XYZ had been his responsibility for the last 12 years, not sure if he was upset because it wasn't done in general or because he hadn't been around to do it. Mad at himself taking it out on me.

I told him in the future if I feel he is ignoring me I will call him on it. I will not tolerate being treated like that. He agreed.

So how did me (conflict avoider) do handling his PA behavior?

CC- I think that you did a great job. That's exactly what you need to continue to do. As a matter of fact, I have a tendency to say "Can I ask you a question?" I'm going to stop doing that and just ask.

YOU kinda called that to me attention! Thanks and keep up the wonderful work!

Cha Cha,

I read your thread but don't post much. But you hit it on the head. You do not deserve to be treated like that. Nor do you have to chose to be around someone that treats you like that.

People only have the power over you that you give them permission to.

Don't give him permission to do that to you. Fair enough to say. I feel like you may be upset with me. Can you tell me why?

No asking what did I do wrong either. Because you didn't do xyz. Validate. I can understand why you may feel like that. No admission of wrong doing on your part. Then answere exactly how you did. I was busy doing a,b,c and d and it made it nearly impossible for me to get to x,y,z. As you can see I didn't even make it to E. LOL. In the future should I do xyz instead of abc because I can't do all of them? In the past you did xyz and that is why I didn't even think about taking on that extra responsibility. I knew you would be able to handle it.

I am having a hard time in my M with boundries too but you have probably read that in Rin's thread.

Good luck. Just remember you have a right to speak your feelings just chose your words the best you can.

Hi Rin..I'm feeling better today after venting on your thread last night...sorry about that.

Well looks like bathroom redo is in your future. When you were talking about some of the response your FWH gave, it sounded so familiar...sometimes I don't think they know what to say...so they laugh it off.

I was watching TV the other day and a commercial came on and it hit me...how easy it is to make a big deal out of something little. In the commercial there was a woman fretting over her floor...young child asked "Mommy whats the matter?" Mom replied "I think we need a new floor but I'm afraid to tell your father." While standing there the boy yells out to dad "Hey, Dad...Mom says we need a new floor." Later, while Mom is do something boy comes in and says "Dad says he wants a new motorcycle." LOL! Just say it! I tend to overthink everything, and try to disect and analize everything. What did he REALLY mean? Maybe because the information I get from him is so sparse I'm looking for more out of it.

The nuclear defense barriers go up as soon as I say..."We need to talk"..."Can I ask you something?"..."I need to talk to you alone."

HL had posted some where how he wished he could say..."that song triggered me and I feel like crap." Thats my goal. To be ABLE to say something like that. Simple. Honest. No drama.

Hi HL thanks for stopping by.

It would be so nice to just wipe out all the barriers to communication. To be heard and understood w/o judgement or rationalization. To be validated and valued, ya know I think thats what we all want BS & WS, and yet we make hard for ourselves and those we love...and they make it hard for us as well. Its a cycle. I'm trying to figure out a way to change my responses that will hopefully break the cycle. It ain't easy!

ChaCha,

I can tell you it is very tough. One of my FWW's common tactics in our discussions/arguments/blowups, was to point out how I was the one with a problem. A communication problem existed and she refused to take ownership of her part of it. Her common statement was that if someone could hear how you are they would agree with her.

Well guess what we went to MC and the MC told her she had a communication problem. If I challenged her statement she wanted to end the conversation without resolution. She would get aggressive and interupt me and hear things I never said. On more then one occasion she said see that's what I am talking about and his response was "I didn't hear him say that".

But why did it happen? I have a theory. She had a vested interest in the conversations escalating. She could become the victim and she could end a conversation she didn't want to have. If I don't want to have a conversation about say spending then what should I do. Especially when I know spending was wrong. Escalate it then claim victim status. She had a vested interest in guiding the conversation that way.

I will give you the same advice I gave rin. Find the root issue. Find your root response that helps your H get to where he wants to be. Then stop.

I play over and over in my head. Do not escalate. Do not escalate. It is counter productive to me to escalate. What happens when I do is the original issue is no longer important, her escalation are not important. What is important is my reaction. That is all I can control now.

Since I have taken this approach she has still DJ'd and LB'd but now I won't allow her to be the victim by getting angry.

It stinks to have to do that. But until we can have an adult conversation it is necessary.

I would love to have my feelings validated but you know what happens if they do that. They have to take ownership. I think to expect anything from my FWW is quite ridiculous until she can take ownership of her stuff.

So now my focus is pointing out ownership in every situation, not just between us. We had an issue with OS and his friend. The friends mom called last night and said they shouldn't hang out anymore. Why becuase her son keeps getting physical with our son. I pointed out she wasn't taking ownership. I also pointed out that the FWW did all she could do to try to work it out but she could only control herself and her actions. How the other person reacts is outside of her control.

I hope by doing this and giving her positive affirmation that she will see how that corolates to our M as well.

Who knows but keep your head up.

Wise words from LovingAnyway:

Hey, CC!

I wanted to chime in on the benefits of "I" statements, 'cuz I'm annoying that way. I've found that poor communication blocks communication (gives the dreaded, odious perspective automatically), hence, intimacy.

I think it is great you began talking instead of trying to schedule "the big talk" which can sure pump up the trepidation, fear and resentment, in advance, without a word spoken!

"I asked why he had ignored me on Sat."

This isn't an "I" statement. This is telling someone else THEIR reality, not yours. "Yesterday, I didn't feel I had your attention at any time. No eye contact, touch or acknowledgement. I felt ignored and I automatically triggered to our old dance of anger...you feel anger, you withdraw, I feel ignored, I pursue."

"He said he didn't realize that he had ignored me."

"Are you saying you didn't realize you were withdrawing yesterday, or that you weren't withdrawing?"

I don't know if at this point he would have owned to his own anger, reacting instead of acting, or what his real truth was...he did after you stated your beliefs, pointed out the dance, how you felt, and your boundary was if he chose to act out (withdrawing is) his anger instead of state it, then you don't want to be around him. (The last is a really vaguely stated boundary without clear lines, btw.)

"He said that it was obvious he was..because I didn't get XYZ done while he was in Puerto Rico."

Validating comes first...listen and repeat, "You're saying you were angry, believed you were making it obvious by withdrawing, closing me out, and your anger is coming from me not meeting your expectation, have I got that correct?"

Get to the realness here...he feels anger. It's his. Emotions don't have to be addressed, only acknowledged...true issues do...how much control do you have over his expectations, emotions from his own expectations and reactions to them not being met? Like ZILCH? Comes at you also, in attempting to meet expectations, you may not meet them in the way he wants or when he wants...please don't hamstring you, him or your marriage with addressing "How can I keep you from being angry? If I give you more information about why it didn't get completed, will you not be angry with me?" Odds are, won't matter...because it's his...not yours.

"I explained that if he was angry about it he should have said something and we could have resolved it."

When you say should, you are lecturing, parenting and condemning. Tell YOUR truth, CC..."Your happiness is very important to me, as is my own. I understand we haven't been safe for each other to share our own stuff. I am safe to share with, and invite you to openly communicate what you're feeling, thinking or what you believe. I will do the same."

"I told him I didn't have time to do XYZ that I now work full time, take care of the kids and the house and was working on finishing the painting and XYZ was not even on my priority list."

He could hear from this, "What I want doesn't matter...it doesn't even make my wife's priority list."

"I said that we have a very high maintaince house and that had been one of my concerns when he moved out that I would not be able to keep up w/ EVERYTHING. XYZ had been his responsibility for the last 12 years, not sure if he was upset because it wasn't done in general or because he hadn't been around to do it. Mad at himself taking it out on me."

DJs kill marriages, I believe...his in his head (you can't control)...yours in your own. You can control. If you're not sure why he was angry (upset is too general a term...means upset emotions...being specific validates and acknowledges)...be it at you or himself (can withdraw from either), the clarify. And it's your DJ that him withdrawing from being angry with himself is TAKING IT OUT ON YOU. We choose our dance, CC...and you just asked him not to play that game anymore.

Where was your voice for the day of ignoring? "I would like to hear your thoughts, H. I'm thinking you're angry, am I close?"

"I miss you. I feel punished when you withdraw. I don't know if this is your intent or not. I know my folks (insert mother or father) used this on me when they were angry with me as a child. Are you angry?"

Speaking respectfully, no blame, no DJs...will change the dance...and you both deserve for this dance to change...neither bad...just bad habits in play.

Before P/A behaviors were known, I read the Verbally Abusive Relationship...which designates Withdrawing, Silent Treatment and Forgetting as abusive. I read parts to my DH, sharing my thoughts...my surprise, shock and new view of doing this...owning I had tried to do it back to him, in our marriage...and coupled it with the Pursuer/Withdrawer cycle. John Bradshaw, in his books, talks about acting out and acting in...same stuff...what your H did was act in his anger...same as AOs acting out. Makes sense. Very damaging to him, you and the marriage. That's real. Find all the ways you may act in, too.

If you weren't going to do XYZ (given all your reasons), then why not tell him while he was in PR, if he mentioned it, "I'm not going to take care of XYZ. I don't believe I have the time, inclination or responsibility for it. Can we POJA this? What do you think?"

Conflict Avoidance is a slippery nut to catch and crack...not being Open and Honest (O&H) as it's happening (which takes practice), is CA...takes being brave (in the face of your expectation for abusive behaviors), having predetermined progressive boundary enforcements (which must be used as the behavior is happening, not afterwards)...and to come from love, not fear of punishment, punishing back or protecting yourself from punishing first. (First strike)

Boundaries have nothing to do with punishment. Or shoulding someone...or demands...they are there for you to know you are actively caring and aware of your own choices, own your own perception, perspective, thoughts, feelings and beliefs...and when someone chooses to act against you or your marriage, then you choose to do A, B and C...

I'm with you on the rejection, CC...my sorepoint, my Emotional Achilles Heel...and I had to own that my own EXPECTATION to be rejected...for this issue to be a conflict, instead of an issue, to be defensive and perceive being judged and attacked...made for a lot of rejection in my life, where there wasn't.

Have you ever asked someone to leave you alone while you cried? Your H, may be? If H has said to you, "I am really angry with myself right now. I am removing myself for two hours to deal with this." Well, that would still be withdrawal, wouldn't it? He's removing himself due to an emotion he has...doesn't sound or feel like rejection, does it? Unless you can feel rejection that he doesn't want you to cure his anger.

Speaking is not easy. I know you know that. Speaking actively in the moment isn't easy...lots of exercises out there to help us practice, reward ourselves and feel the reward in doing.

You can do this all the way, CC...CA is fear-based, and I see you as shining with love...learning to act from it. 90% of all marital conflict is not to be solved, but understood.

That removes a heckuva lot of conflict to avoid, doesn't it? Speaking in the moment, "Are you angry?" "Yes." "Good to know." "Thank you for sharing." And sharing your own stuff is living respectfully. Being authentic...and thriving.

I pray you'll be able to do it together. You have a lot of power over your life, CC...over you.

LA

CC:

If you can find my Personal Recovery thread, you will learn that LA has been helping me out with this same issue. Your H and mine are evidencing the same pattern. I'll try to share some thoughts on what I have learned and have been doing that has been really helpful.

You said:



LA said "VALIDATING COMES FIRST"...I've learned as LA says to not only VALIDATE but also to show RESPECT for my H's point of view. XYZ may not have been at all important to YOU but it may be important to HIM. I can't even begin to tell you how helpful it has been in our RELATIONSHIP to let my H know that I RESPECT who he is and what he believes in. I don't have to agree with it but I can LISTEN and RESPECT. Not RESPECTING that XYZ is important to HIM, if not to you, will keep him from sharing his anger and disappointment with you. I have learned that my H is more OPEN AND WILLING TO SHOW HIS VULNERABLITY with me now that he knows that I will ACCEPT him rather than to criticize or to tell him how he SHOULD be. On that same token, he now is evidencing ACCEPTANCE and RESPECT of me. We POJA on issues daily. Wow, what made me think that I was always RIGHT about EVERYTHING and he needed to THINK and to BE the way I wanted him to BE?



This says it all....

About the ACTING IN vs. ACTING OUT expression of emotion.. I have a bit to add. I agree that your H was ACTING IN but that's not NECESSARILY a BAD THING. I think that some folks are TURTLES and some folks are HAIL STORMS. We actually learned this in a marriage workshop conducted by Hendrix who wrote GETTING THE LOVE YOU WANT . TURTLES go inside their shells..the stronger they FEEL about something and of course STORMERS STORM. Whose to say that either way is GOOD or BAD? Hendrix' theory is that the problem is that we married this person who is our COMPLEMENT and then spend our marriage trying to change our partner to our style. What's best is for the TURTLE to come out more and for the STORMER to stop HAILING....I have learned to SIT STILL and to SPEAK QUIETLY about my feelings and guess what.. the TURTLE has been peeking out more and more. Make sense?

I also want to add that, unfortunately, there is probably a bit of FOG left..As I always say, it has taken a FULL THREE YEARS for us to be NORMAL..well... AFTER AN AFFAIR- NORMAL...

I don't know how this fits for your situation but the FOW in my case most likely never criticized, never spoke her true voice, accepted and did everything that my H wanted...he says that he knew that at some level that this was SICK and that she was being PHONY..but what a WONDERFUL FANTASY to be living....meeting that ADMIRATION NEED..BIG TIME!!!

So me being AUTHENTICALLY loving and accepting of him is ALMOST PERFECT...the way a HEALTHY relationship is supposed to be.... Get it????

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />