Our marriage is in serious trouble.

Me: 38, PhD, clinical depression, INTP
Her: 39, some post-graduate, computer professional
Married almost 14 years, together 16
Children: boy, 6, girl, 3

Both introverted and intelligent, both with challenging, demanding jobs. We got along well without ever learning to communicate about feelings with one other, probably through co-dependency and because we didn’t challenge one another. I’m sure that this allowed lots of unresolved issues to pile up, but these didn’t become too bad until the kids came along.

In the months before my daughter was born, I began working very hard. I said at one point that it felt like the demands of work were grinding me to dust. I realize now that my depression kicked up a gear at about that time but was not treated appropriately. My response to this was to withdraw. My wife comes from a family where communication and recognition of feelings was not emphasized, so she wasn’t aware of how she was becoming unhappy, and so we began to grow apart. I don’t believe that the problems we experienced were more significant than most people suffer.

After my daughter was born, things probably got worse. We never recognized the importance of working on our relationship (they don’t teach you that). We both worked very hard, and any excess time went into the kids. I began to realize that she wasn’t happy and concluded it was because she was working too hard.

Her affair with a co-worker lasted approximately six months and ended nine months ago. Because I have read here, I understand the importance of no-contact and urged this (and for her to change jobs) but did not demand it, and she continued to work in the same office. She gets great satisfaction from her job and doesn’t think she can find another one like it, so she refused to leave. I now think that so much of her identity was/is tied up in her job that she could not even conceive of leaving.

I don’t know that it matters anymore. It has been nine months, and she says that she is over him. I am told and believe that their conduct and interaction has been strictly professional except for two occasions (when she expressed concern for and had some conversations about how the OM was getting along with his spouse). I absolutely do not believe that she is lying to me (she has told me enough painfully honest things), and so when she tells me that she is over him, I at least believe that she believes she is.

We have each been in IC as well as seeing a MC for the last eight months. The IC has been helpful for me, but the MC hasn’t gotten us anywhere. For the first six or so months after I found out, I was on the roller coaster of insanity, looking for her to help me in ways that she could not. Love-busting and disrespectful judgements couched in attempts to be constructive and help her “figure things out.” Unrealistic expectations. Feeling like she wasn’t trying. Then I feel like I turned a corner and was actually in a place where we could begin to rebuild, but she had largely given up hope. That’s how it’s been for the past three months—she has mostly given up hope, and as I have felt things slipping away, I have been more and more afraid and thus more depressed. The tension in the house has amped up—me looking for signs that she’s not going to quit and her feeling bad for not being able to do and feel the things she thinks she “ought” to be able to. She doesn’t know what to do with all the emotion I experience, and sometimes I don’t know how to hide it.

We just had two weeks apart. One week where I was on vacation with the kids and my family and then a week where I had to travel for business while she kept the kids. It was a relief for her—being away from the tension. When I came back, the tension came back.
Within a couple of days, she told me that she was done and thinks we need to separate.

When I ask her what she wants, she tells me that she wants for us to remain a family, to be in love with her husband, and to be happy. To want to come home at night. But she has given up hope on being able to get there—to recapture the feelings we used to have. That there are differences between what you want and what you can do. She doesn’t know what else to do, and she has no interest in trying to do things that might help us connect with one another. From my perspective, there was never a time where we were each able to try to connect in ways that might be successful. I firmly believe we can rediscover feelings for one another. I think there are plenty of possible reasons why she’s having difficulty finding feelings for me, and thus I feel like it’s too soon to quit.

She says it’s bad for the children to be around two parents who aren’t happy. I maintain that this is a temporary thing, that our lives don’t have to be full of tension and unhappiness the way they are now, and that it’s a certainty that divorce will not be good for the kids.

Predictably, I have fears that she will wind up back with the OM and that subconscious desires have prevented her from reconnecting with me. She tells me that this is not the case and that she is over him. As I indicated before, I believe what she tells me, or at least that she believes it.

If she had told me that she had thought about it and has decided that I am a jerk and that she just doesn’t want to live with me, I would probably approach things differently. But the kinds of things she tells me (“I think it’s just been too long,” “I can’t change the way I feel”) and that she thinks it’s hopeless because she can’t see any path forward sound to me like quitting too soon. She doesn’t really have anyone to discuss these things with (her parents and siblings don’t know) aside from her IC, and she has no confidence in our MC. I try to paint a picture of a happy future and help her see what is possible, but I think it comes across as pushing and laying on expectations (and making her feel bad that she can’t meet them).

I think that the only thing I can do is look out for myself. I have tried everything I could to be supportive (almost certainly above and beyond what was actually constructive). If she is determined to go, she can go. I know that I can’t make her believe or want or feel things, and that as long as she doesn’t believe in or want to recover our marriage, she will probably not be able to feel the things she needs to.

I welcome any advice. I will attempt to get her to read responses as well, but she is very skeptical of this place.

SDGuy

sdguy,
I'm sorry that your marriage has taken so many negative turns and that you find yourself here. There are many men, like you, that have feelings of hopelessness and despair. What your wife says she wants may be attainable, but you will both probably have to make several significant changes. It may be worth looking into a counseling session with the Harley's... they may be able to provide the direction and guidence that you and your wife need.

I have a sincere worry, and I'm guessing that others will have the same concern when they read your post. What your wife says about not wanting to try any more... about not loving you the way she wants to..... about wanting to separate..... these are often times indicators that the affair has started back up again (or never really ended)... WWs are not capable of telling the truth when they are caught up in the throws of the affair and the addiction makes them do many dishonest things... it is entirely possible that your wife is rationalizing the demise of your marriage to justify her other secret life with OM....

I hope I'm wrong, but your story and your WW's comments ring too familiar to others... BOTTOM LINE: I think it's time to snoop... check emails, phone records, etc... and find out if the affair is really over. Just because your WW was honest with you nine months ago, it doesn't mean that she has been honest since or that she continues to be honest today.....

Good luck.... we're here for you,
Heartsore

Between the truth there resides the babble. Learn to tell the difference. For guidance, please read Surviving an Affair and for communication assistance, please read His Needs/Her Needs. For total plan Support, please call Jennifer C @ MB for phone counseling.

Take the emotional needs questionnaire in the concepts section above. Once as yourself and offer her the chance. If she says no, you take it a 2nd time but using her personality to respond.

If she won't participate in the phone counseling....you do it 1st.

She sounds like she wants you to give her approval to have another A. Beware of the babble. Learn to identify and learn how to retort.

L.

Thanks for your comments. I have read quite a bit around here, but the babble concept is new to me. I guess I am having trouble knowing whether or not (as she asserts) we have just grown too far apart from one another.

Does his wife know about the affair? If you think she does, how do you know? Hint: unless you told her yourself, you don't know.

Here's why this is important:
Your fears are very valid. IF she's really away from him now. Contact OM's wife.

Subconscious my [censored]. Try "conspiring."

Squeal to the OM's wife. Today. I'm sorry to predict that the affair is still in progrress.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about it -

The vast majority of couples I counsel who have been through the horror of an affair, have better marriages after the affair than before. It's because the affair jolts them into recognizing the need for building an affair-proof marriage, and the safety precautions they use help them create compatibility and love. But has the offended spouse forgiven the offender in these marriages? Yes and no.

First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.

But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.

To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be stupid to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.

The first act of compensation to you from your husband should be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means leaving his job or moving your family to another state. The reason should be obvious, but in case there's some confusion, he should be reminded that every contact he will ever have with this woman will be like a knife in your heart. He has already caused you to suffer unbearable pain, and any further contact with his ex-lover would keep you suffering. In your case, the affair is probably over, but has your husband taken precautions to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?

And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he considered the circumstances that led to his affair? Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, close friendships with those of the opposite sex, recreational relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable? Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the suffering he's caused you to bear.

While there's no excuse for an affair, and if your husband takes the extraordinary precautions I've suggested he will never have another affair again, there are "reasons" that people have affairs. And those reasons must also be addressed when considering just compensation.

I've made the point in His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage that spouses usually have affairs because their emotional needs are not being met in the marriage. The way to affair-proof a marriage is for couples to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So whenever one spouse has an affair, the other should try to learn to meet the unmet needs that led to the affair.

That's a tough sell to someone who has just learned about their spouse's unfaithfulness. I'd sooner kill him than meet his needs, is the most common reaction. Besides, we haven't talked about compensation at all. Instead, we've gone and blamed the offended spouse for the affair!

But in most cases, neither spouse is meeting the other's needs prior to the affair. The reason that there were not two affairs is often a lack of opportunity for the offended spouse. And sometimes when there is that opportunity, there actually are two affairs.

The point I'm making is that in most cases both the offending and offended spouses' emotional needs were not being met by each other prior to the affair. One compensation for the affair, therefore, is for the offending spouse to learn to meet the emotional needs of the offended spouse. But if I can also motivate the offended spouse to do something that should have been done all along, meet the offending spouse's emotional needs, the arrangement seems more fair to the offending spouse. There is not only compensation for the affair, but the one of the conditions that may have created the affair (unmet emotional needs) are removed. The marriage is restored and affair-proofed.

But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship.

Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer. Second, he or she must express some plan to assure the forgiver that steps have been taken to avoid the painful act in the future. Extraordinary precautions to never see or talk to the former lover, and to avoid circumstances that might ignight an new affair should be part of the plan for recovery. And another part of the plan is for both spouses to meet each other's unmet emotional needs that may have given the unfaithful spouse a "reason" to be unfaithful. As it turns out, it's the successful completion of that plan that's the compensation that leads to "forgiveness." Learning to meet each other's most important emotional needs is the plan that usually does the trick.

But, unlike the repayment of $10,000, where payee suffers a $10,000 loss in order to provide compensation, in marriage, the compensation does not lead to a loss. Your husband should guarantee that he will never have another affair, and learn how to meet your important emotional needs, as you should learn to meet his. I'd say that's just compensation, wouldn't you? And yet, the price your husband pays will make him a much better and a much happier person.

There's another important point that I should make regarding forgiveness. When you discovered your husband's affair, you learned two things about him that you had not known before. You learned that he would make decisions that did not take your feelings into account (having the affair), and you learned that he would lie about his behavior to cover it up. In other words, you learned that he was not following the Policy of Joint Agreement or the Policy of Radical Honesty. That discovery was undoubtedly very disillusioning to you. Who wants to be married to a man who is inconsiderate and dishonest?

Now you are trying to create a new understanding with your husband, where he will agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. Good for you! Apparently, he has not yet agreed to these important issues, and that has a great deal to do with your reluctance to forgive him. I'm sure you will not find forgiveness in your heart until he agrees to be honest with you, and to take your feelings into account in the future.

But forgiveness will be much easier after you are convinced that your husband considers your feelings whenever he makes a decision (follows the Policy of Joint Agreement), is completely honest with you about everything (follows the Policy of Radical Honesty), and is meeting your important emotional needs. For you to be convinced, he must not only agree to these changes, but he must also demonstrate his commitment by living them for a while. Forgiveness may still require a bit of generosity on your part, but if he makes these changes, I think you'll be able to handle it. When that happens, the burden of resentment you are carrying will be lifted, and the love you have for each other will be restored.

The OM's wife knew about the affair much longer than I did. I have spoken with her on several different occasions and believe the affair is over. If she really wanted to be with the OM, she could go and do it, but she hasn't.

I tend to think that it's more guilt and denial of that guilt that's preventing her from reconnecting with me than a continuing affair.

I hope she will read here. Don't worry - she is perfectly normal. Most of the WS's think we are crazy here. Maybe she can do some reading of the articles here - they are all on the home page.

Believe me, I've tried to get her to read here, but she is resistant (and yet says it's hopeless and doesn't know what else to try). I'm trying to schedule a counseling session with someone here for myself, but I am just about certain she will refuse to participate in it.

Very frustrating. I'm to the point of throwing up my hands (probably should have gotten there sooner). She's going to do what she's going to do. I can only take care of myself and my kids.

It would be such a waste, though.

Will she spend 15 hours a week doing fun things with you, WITHOUT the kids? You should do some of the things that you used to do together.

Don't give up hope. Have you been doing a great Plan A?

Print out the Infidelity FAQ's - I did and my wife read them. Lead her to water. There is hope.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

I showed her the FAQs, but it was much earlier in the process. She's skeptical of the whole thing--that anyone could be helped over the internet; that any one single plan can account for all situations.

I believe that I can't lead her in this (my IC has been trying to beat this into my head for some time now), and my attempts are counter-productive. I don't know that anyone can--our MC never challenged her, and I don't imagine that her IC does either.

My plan A was flawed at the beginning by the roller coaster of emotion (that she couldn't help me with) and at the end by depression that she was about to quit, although I know that I have done the best I could and that it has been more than anyone could expect. The meds I started a few days ago seem to be working much better.

I have been trying to do something without the kids for a while now--just to have positive experiences that could remind us how to be friends, but we haven't been able to. I think that if I try it now, I will be ignoring the fact that she is "done." That's why I asked about the babble. I think that I need to make myself available to friendship type stuff without layering on expectations (because that's what seems to drive her away).

Again, thanks for the kind words.

Tell me, is your IC pro-marriage?

Hang in there. We have seen much more hopeless cases than yours recover. If your wife will not go with you, then take your kids and go do things. Invite her, and if she declines, go anyway.

The meds will really help you do what you need to do. But they usually take a couple weeks to kick in. In the meantime, come here and vent.

Remember, your marriage didn't get messed up in a couple of months, and it is not going to get better in a couple of months.

Thanks again.

My IC is absolutely pro-marriage, but me attempting to lead her and even be compassionate and supportive come across as me trying to fix her and lay on expectations she thinks she can't meet. It clearly wasn't working, so my IC has me trying to be more independent and not get so much of my own validation from whether or not my wife chooses to stay married to me. I agree that this is something I need to do whether or not we stay together.

ah. Sounds a bit like a 180° approach. OK.You of course don't get your validation from being married etc. I agree. But you can show your wife the green pastures. Her going to them is her choice of course.