No, I haven't been tested. I know I need to. I know I didn't do anything wrong, but it's still humiliating to have to deal with that aspect of it.

Agreed. It IS humiliating, BTDT.

But what would be worse is for you to get sick, deathly sick because of his uncaring and cheating ways.

Go do it, hon.

OB1,
It is very very humiliating, but it has to be done. I was the 3rd wife my dr had seen that week that needed STD testing because of a WH. Sad, but true.

Make the call and have it done.

To continue my previous post (my story):

D (WS), after several days of not knowing what he wanted, stated he wanted to try and work things out. That had been my position from the beginning.

Since then, there have been several ugly fights inter-mixed with good moments, blah moments, and a sprinkling of great moments. This recovery is going to be an uphill battle (talk about stating the obvious <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />). Lying is second nature to D. It's an acknowledged terrible habit, and one he wishes to overcome. He needs a lot of help in that regard. D is also very private. He's not a forthcoming person, which is challenging/upsetting to me. I hate the feeling of prying information from him. Now, more than ever, I need transparency. He resists and gets angry. He doesn't want his privacy invaded. I understand that feeling, to a degree. However, I hide nothing from him. Given his deceptive nature, it's hard to honor his right to privacy. It usually leads to him hiding things that are harmful to our relationship.

About 4 weeks ago he suggested counseling. We have since completed a couple of sessions. So far, I have a good feeling about it, but time will tell. Last weekend we had a bit of an emotional breakthrough/breakdown where he stated a need for IC. I called and got him an appointment for that same week. He ended up cancelling, due to work. He says he rescheduled, but it will be 2 weeks before he sees the counselor.

D is a "bury your head in the sand" type. He doesn't want to discuss or rehash, as he puts it, the affair. He gets very upset/angry about it. His feelings of shame and embarrassment (brought to the surface by discussion of his betrayal) trump my need to talk and ask questions. He wants to put it behind us and move forward. I believe that the only way we can put it behind us is to deal with it head on, which means talking about it. When things aren't going the way he wants, he pulls the "I'm leaving" or the "this isn't going to work". He effectively deflects and puts me into damage control mode, shifting my focus from the uncomfortable topic. He's pulled this so many times, I feel like a yo-yo.

So, we're 2 months post d-day, we're doing couples therapy, he's going to start IC, he/we have acknowledged/recognized problem areas, he's verbally committed to NC and he appears to be trying to re-engage in our relationship. Our biggest areas of difficulty are rebuilding trust (obvious), radical honesty, accountability for time, being an open book, effective communication, and anger management. I'm trying my best to be supportive and meet his emotional needs. It's frustrating to hear "be patient OB1", "be understanding, OB1", "be tolerant, OB1". There's a huge part of me that wants HIM to be patient, understanding and tolerant. I want him to TLC me through this. I want to see, not hear, that he wants this relationship. I want to feel that he loves me enough to do whatever it takes. He's not there yet, and that hurts.

He's still in withdrawal I suspect. WHen was his last contact with OW?

About 2 weeks ago (that I know of). NC was broken when her husband found out and all the phone calls started. The morning after, she started calling my cell phone and leaving nasty messages. D called her to tell her to stop.
Aside from that, he's not admitted to any further contact. Do I suspect contact may be continuing without my knowledge? Yes, the thought of that possibility is in my mind.

Always suspect - bear in mind the withdrawal will take 4-8 weeks from the last contact or longer. Wait it out. I would look at counselling with Steve Harley. If your husband thinks he can act like this indeffinitely, Tell him to leave.

How will I know that contact has fully ceased? All I know is what he tells me, and don't have that level of trust for him. There are days where I'm convinced that he's still contacting her and then there are days where he seems so "here" that I feel guilty for doubting him. I'm biding time, looking for signs that tell me where his head and heart are at. For now, we've agreed to confine A talk to our therapy sessions. Right now, we don't have the communication skills to navigate that topic without it getting ugly. It's hard for me because I'm a talker. I want and need to be able to talk to him about anything and everything. Knowing that I can't is like telling a small child to sit still. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Have you read the infidelity FAQ's? Pep's Carrot and Stick of Plan A? Both are linked below.

Please also call Steve Harley from MB for an appointment.

OB1...

Below, in bold, is something known as "Joseph's Letter"...Print it out and have your husband read it...Perhaps it will explain to him why it is crucial for him to answer anything and everything that you ask...

Mrs. W

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

Snoop like like hale. If you suspect he is still seeing her, he probably is. Get his cell phone bill, tap your phone and put a voice activated recorder in his car.


The communication skill that is lacking is the desire to be TRUSTWORTHY on the part of your WS. He wants to hide the truth, you need to know it. That is why it gets ugly. Honesty is not really a communication "skill" but a requirement for honest communucation. He doesn't have it.

I would also point out that counseling is a complete waste of time if a) one of the spouses is lying, as yours is and b) one is in an affair, as he probably is.

You would be ahead if you just flushd the money down the toilet and saved the gas to get there.


You won't recover until he is honest with you about everything. He owes you that and it is a boundary that I would draw if I were you. If you are willing to accept him back after an affair, the least he can do is be honest about his affair.

OB1 - To say that you are "very early" in Recovery is an understatement. From all that you have written, there are some "truths" concerning your husband and your marriage that exist today. They MAY change in the future, but that potential day is a long way off. So let's look at just a few of the "truths" that you have to deal with in your attempt to recover your marriage.

1. Your marriage ended when he chose adultery as the "method" to deal with problems and/or dissatifactions with your marriage. There is no "going back" to "what was." Do YOU really want "what was" anyway? Recovery is your opportunity to create the marriage you always hoped for, or it will simply confirm his choice to end the marriage because of fear of change.

2. Your husband is an accomplished liar. It is his "natural response" to anything that conflicts with his ability to "do whatever he feels like doing."

3. Privacy has some place in a marriage, but for the most part a marriage thrives on transparency, not lies and deceit. His insistance on privacy is just another way of saying he wants to "lie by omission."

4. Contact has not stopped. You can take that to the bank. He exhibits NO real remorse for his behavior, only an "acquiesence" to your desires (i.e., counseling) to "keep you at bay." What has really happened is that the affair has "gone underground." It's merely a "waiting period." Why? Because he is afraid of the Other Woman's husband and believes that "he is everything bad that the OW had told him about" as her justification for HER decision to commit adultery. Your lying husband is "so much better for her than her husband."

5. Assuming you want to continue to try to give your marriage a chance to recover (or you wouldn't be here trying to find out what you can do), there are several thinks that you need to do even if you "don't like them" or they "make you feel uncomfortable."

a) Trust, but verify. There is NO reason to trust a liar, much less a fogbound adulterer. He has to EARN your trust and "should" welcome your "checking up on him" as a way to "prove to you" that the affair really is over and he will be faithful to you from this point forward. You NEED to check up on him for a while to "counter" his lifelong habit of lying to you, especially in this area of FIDELITY to you that he has PROVEN himself to be untrustworthy. Checking his veracity is not an "option," it is a requirement you need to "prove" what he says is truth, and not more of the same sort of lies that he has always chosen, TO PUT HIMSELF AND 'HIS NEEDS' AHEAD OF YOURS.

b) "Go with your gut." Only you really know your husband and your situation. Only you really have a "radar" that is fully on now that will pick up the slightest bit of lying and/or evasiveness. He needs to be keeping you fully informed about his whereabouts, especially if something happens that causes a variation from his schedule. He's not going to "like" doing this, but "like" is not relevant. It is what he MUST do if YOU are to "take him back" and try to start again with HIM.

c) You need to read up here on "Reverse Babble" and begin using it when he spouts fogladen talk.




ALL Wayward Spouses want to "forget about it, just not talk about it," and want YOU to "just get over it." It HURTS to talk about an affair. TOUGH. That, too, is one of the consequences of his chosen action.

OB1, there are many things you will have to "swallow" and "put up with" for a time until your husband fully engages in recovering your marriage. But there are also some "ground rules" that you need to consider about behavior that is a "deal breaker" for YOUR choosing to "give him a second chance." You will have to decide what those are, but let me give you one or two things to mull over and decide if they are "right for you;"

1. "When things aren't going the way he wants, he pulls the "I'm leaving" or the "this isn't going to work"."

When he pulls this junk, tell him recovery is no longer about ONLY HIS needs, it is about your needs. YOU remained faithful to him and he CHOSE to commit adultery. While you are sorry he sometimes feels stress, the secrets he shares with the OW are something YOU get to decide what you "need to know," not him. If he can't live with that, then you will honor his previous decision to end the marriage (in choosing adultery) and he can LEAVE.

2. If YOU are committed to rebuilding your marriage, then you will have to "buckle up" for the long haul. There WILL be many days when you may feel like throwing in the towel. It's worse now, because IF (and I don't believe it yet from what you've written so far) the affair truly is over and NO Contact established, he is currently in Withdrawal. During this times (generally 4 to 8 weeks), virtually nothing you do will penetrate his mind. He will be too absorbed in what he perceives as what he lost, not what he has gained in you. Keep in mind that the AVERAGE recovery timeframe is TWO years, not a month or two.

3. Again, assuming you are committed to recovery, prepare yourself for a "roller coaster" sort of ride. There WILL be days of "two steps forward, one step backward." There will be days of seeming "stagnation of movement." Gird yourself with two indespensable qualities that you will have to lean HARD on, Patience and Endurance.

Recovery is a "marathon, not a sprint." It is long and it will have ups and downs along the way. Right now the "finish line" seems so far away that you can't even hope to see it," but it IS there. Unfortunately there is no "quick way" to get there. And don't forget that you are BOTH running that marathon, but you are starting at different times and with different "pre-race" preparations. You can finish the race together, but only if he "endures" too and "picks up his pace," while you will reach a point in the race where you have to "slow down and let him catch up" to you. THEN, and only then, can you cross the line together.

This is the "toughest race" for a marriage to run. But it CAN be run. Along the way, one of the "new consequences" that you will both receive from your efforts is a "better understanding of who each of you IS, what you are "changing into," and that LOVE IS an action verb and must be chosen and done. The "feelings" of 'in love' you both desire is the "prize that awaits" a successful running of the marathon race you are embarking upon. The prize does NOT get awarded at the start or in the middle. It comes at the end. In shorthand, if someone wants to BE loved, then ACT in loving ways. (That is the essence of Harley's "Love Bank" concept).

Good luck and God bless as you embark upon the race you choose to enter, whichever race it is (Recovery or Divorce).

I'm hearing you guys. I truly am. I concur with almost all of what you're saying. In my thinking, the first step is ensuring that contact has truly ceased. I know that the only way to know is to dig. I'm not comfortable doing that right now. We've had so many fights over my incessant need to know. Emotionally, I need a time out to regroup.

In the past couple of months, I've uncovered information that is highly suspicious, yet he provides a plausible explanantion...or maybe it appears plausible because I WANT to believe what he says, as opposed to how it appears. Given his track record, the likelyhood of a lie is greater than the likelyhood of getting the truth. That's the reality. If not for his history, his offense would have more credibility. I want so much to give him the benefit of the doubt, but everything comes with a vein of cynicism.

I have the right to demand total honesty. He owes it to me. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish lies from truth. Other times, it's plain as day. He's gotten himself in so deep, I believe he's afraid of facing the truth. He wants a clean slate. Okay, I can understand that. How do you start with a clean slate if the problems that mucked it up to begin with are not addressed? It's the proverbial house of cards. It's tumbling down around him, and he's struggling with accepting that I want to help him/us get through the mess. There is no hidden agenda. I'm not out to "get him". His mind cannot fathom the depth of my love for him. My assessment is that he's lived the majority of his life waiting for the other shoe to drop. He's having difficulty believing that someone (me) loves him, warts and all. He, by his own admission, cannot comprehend that, even after all he's put me through, I STILL love him. I'm still here. I still want him. He doesn't believe he's worth that kind of love. He saw what he believed to be the path we would take. He braced himself for what he thought should happen. When I changed it up and tried to show him another way, I think I completely confused him. He expected chaos, with a definite negative outcome. Instead, I offered to sort through the chaos with him, with potential for a positive outcome.

Sometimes, he wants to just wash his hands of the whole mess and start over (new life). What I (and others) have tried to explain is that the problems will persist, wherever he's at, until he seeks to resolve them. There is no "fresh" start. Ya gotta clean house. That means putting time and work into it.

As for OW, I KNOW that feelings are involved. He wants me to believe that he's done with it simply because he willed it so. I don't think that's possible. He maintained a friendship with this woman for a year. Judging from cell records, the friendship started escalating in February/March of this year. By the end of April, there were hundreds of call and text messages. Within a month of that, it had crossed the line from being a EA to a PA. If he was that drawn to the woman, how can he realistically expect that he can quit cold turkey? I understood the dynamics and fully expected that contact may continue. The draw was still going to be there. The feelings weren't just going to go away over night. What I have tried to do is encourage him to open up to me about this, with a committment on my part to listen and offer support...no backlash or anger. Yet he continues to deny any lingering feelings. He denies contact or desire to attempt contact. I suppose anything is possible, but it doesn't seem likely.

Since D-day, he's been up and down...mostly down. He says he doesn't know how to act around me. Okay, I can understand that. Sometimes he's affectionate and other times he's completely withdrawn...like he's in his own little world. Feeling love from him is hit and miss. He says it's not that he doesn't love me, but he's struggling with his self-worth. He doesn't know what his life means to him anymore. He has issues that pre-date "us". Add into the mix that he's currently unable to do the job he loves, due to a work injury. As a result of that injury, he needs a fusion in his c-spine. He may never be able to go back to his job (firefighter/paramedic). That, in of itself, is enough to send a person into a deep depression. For D, it's magnified. He LOVES his job. It is a big part of who he is. Facing the possibility of never being able to go back is devastating. Stats show that injured workers that do not return to their job within the first year, likely never will. They suffer from deep depression. The feelings of despair and hopelessness are intense. His behavior is self-destructive and it hurts to see him like this. Is he depressed? I would say absolutely! First IC session is in 2 weeks. I'm hoping that will help.

It's a wild ride....and I'm hanging on as best I can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Marriage Builders is all about the tools/skills that are recommended in order to facilitate a happy sucessful marriage...

you are free to ignore any/all advice here .....

and you are free to impliment NO changes that are uncomfortable for you ...

You are responsible for your efforts in this marriage ... "comfortable" or not

good luck

Pep

How do you deal with "fog" talk? Someone mentioned reverse babble.

A real hot button for me is the accusation that the current situation between D and OWH is my fault. If not for my conversation with him, OWH would probably never know. It's because of the knowledge that I provided that OWH is gunning for D. That prompts anger in D, which drives him to want to retaliate against OWH....and the vicious cycle will continue. He says he's angry at the man, but doesn't fail to point out that this wouldn't be happening if not for me talking to him.

It pisses me off! It pushes my buttons and my first instinct is to reason and argue my defense. What he is saying is not rational. My logic is not his logic. I feel like pulling my hair out when he gets like this. The shifting of blame is so blatant.

How do I handle this? Trying to reason with him doesn't work. When I try to defend, I feel like I'm weakening my position.

What works? I wish there was a reverse babble dictionary.

Why is his accusation such a hot button? Why are you letting this rent space in your head?

Just smile and say, "Oh baby doll! You are so right. Why was I ever such a naughty girl? How did such a bad, naughty girl like me ever get lucky enough to hook up with a perfectly wonderful man who is knows how to say and do all the perfectly right things all the time!"

Don't handle it. You know the truth. You have nothing to defend. His position is without any merit and therefore he has no strength when resorting to those "arguments."

Let him know that you know the truth... tell him that everyday that he fails to accept full responsibility for his actions and is not acting like a real man, that he is eroding the respect that you have for him... and leave it at that. Do not be baited into a discussion that you know is ridiculous.

You have truth and character on your side. He has his shame and childish ways to live with.

OB1,

You're looking at this from the wrong direction, hon.

Look at it from this slant, your husband KNOWS this is a hot button of yours and he "effectively" pushes it to make you angry in hopes you'll spout off so he can say "SEEEEEEE, this is why I had an affair".

How's that for arm-chair psychology.

Jo

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's the blame. I do my best to recognize and own my mistakes. When I screw up I have to 'fess up and try to make it right. I don't play the scapegoat very well.

When he brings up your talking to OWH, put it back in his lap where it belongs...

Say, "Yes I really hated having to talk OWH...I sure wish that your affair hadn't put me in such an awkward position...When can I expect an apology from you for that? You do realize how hurtful and embarrassing it was for me, right?"

Smile sweetly...

Mrs. W