PS:

And this has nothing to do with your gf, OK?

'Huh' is for sad other things don't go together with these ones.

'Contradictions'... OK, what do 'caring, genuine, and selfless' really mean - for you? (In daily life and in the long run, for we speak here about you and 'in the long run', right)?

OK, gotcha now. Yes, I did tell her that I could not be married to someone with those qualities. Now, I know that we all choose to hear what we want to, so I have no way of knowing that she heard what I said, but given that I actually tried to break up with her over this, it's hard to imagine that she did not appreciate the seriousness of my comments. And she did say that she wants to make those changes, so she acknowledged my concerns - unfortunately, nothing changed.


It's possible. If that is the case, we will both have to figure out if we want to do that, or if one (or both) of us will want to go and search for someone who can be marriage material.

AGG

AGG,
Not much time but wanted to comment a little....

I think the longer you're with the wrong person the harder it is going to be to break up with them and the more painful in the end. It will also make the chances a lot higher of ending up marrying the wrong person in the end. I also think that as long as G is a part of your life, your chances of meeting someone more compatible is 0 to 1%.

Just some food for thought for ya. Good luck to you

Anna

AGG:

In your initial post, it seemed like you were apologizing for not liking some fundamental parts of her personality. There's not to apologize for--you've been through the whole marriage/divorce thing before (I'm assuming) so why not go with your gut? As far as I'm concerned she's ALL wrong for you!

I'm not going to comment on her parent's funneling money to her or her apparent laziness...but I will say that if these things are bothering you NOW, how will you feel when you're married to her and you HAVE to make this relationship work AT ALL COSTS? You're going to kick yourself because you KNEW she was like this...

There's wrong with her as a person, but you have a snowball's chance in ****** at changing her at 40 years old. I think the idea of speaking to her parents is laughable, too...

I have read the post and your G is being taken care of by her parents. Sounds like you want someone who is self initiated and assumes responsibility. To have a playmate is not a loving relationship.

I have met a wonderful man after 4 years after my divorce. He too is divorced for a long time and we just clicked. He is so motivated and starting his own business and I too am going to start my own business. I work hard...finishing the house that the ex never finished about 55% unfinished. Neighbors do compliment me on the outside and the yard...getting rid of the piles of dirt and junk laying around the yard. I am trimming the trees (many trees) and having some taken down to open the yard more. I have had the house stain/painted and a new roof...house is only 15 years old and the ex never had more than 1 coat of stain/paint on the T11 wood. So much of the trim needed replacing because of dryrot. With my oldest sons advice I had a beautiful big detached garage built and I have been building the shelves myself and they are beautiful and practical.

I take care of most everything here...the new boyfriend has helped me out and he is so handy and he helps senior citizens with fixing things in their homes for a senior citizen price. He knows a lot about repairs and was a big time engineer and finally gave up that ladder job. He was at the top and wanted to get down to the basics and work with his hands. He smiles all the time and conversation with him just flows.

I believe you have seen what your life would be like with this G and it is not compatible with your life style. When one is so motivated and one is not, there is great disharmony. HOw is conversation with the two of you. She is well educated and intelligent. But what do you two talk about...just wondering. Conversation is so important in a relationship.

I too believe that if you were to talk to her parents...nothing would change. They have set the pattern with all their children and someone coming in on the sidelines is not going to change anything.

This is hard...in the long run you need to look at your future and what you want in your future. How you want to live and how to conduct yourself. Seems you 2 are not close to the center...seems you 2 are more towards the end of the stick.

Prayers and Blessings.....to you.

Basic incompatibility issues that center around items like personal energy levels & financial lifestyles NEVER resolve themselves to a good place.

Abort!!!!

You're denying yourself the opportunity for a better life every single day you now spend with her. And, you're doing the same thing to her, denying her the life she's hoping for. Food for thought.

Anna:

Hi Anna <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... Of course, you are right, and I am well aware that, as I always say to others, "for every day you are spending with Ms. Wrong, you are spending a day preventing the possibility of meeting Ms. Right". I am in no hurry to move on and start looking again, but yes, I don't want to continue a relationship that has essentially no chance of working longterm.

^aeri^:


Thanks for your thoughts, aeri. You bet, I am not gonna make the mistake of marrying a person when I see so many red flags. I was hoping to either get used to her lifestyle or to find some workaround around the issues, but I never ever not once lost sight of them. FWIW, this is the one thingswith which I am very happy with myself in this relationship - despite being totally smitten by her from the outset, I was always able to keep my eyes open and not miss anything.

Loveinhim:


Like in most new relationships, conversation was awesome. We talked for hours, and always seemed to "get" each other. I think the ability is still there, but we no longer do that, for one clear reason - there is a minefield out there that we are both aware of. We have graduated to talking about simple stuff, like "when are you coming down?", and avoiding the heavier stuff, like "what are your plans for the future?", "what do you think of our relationship?", etc. And of course, this is a red flag in and of itself. I am well aware of that.


Yup, you are right. Thanks for your thoughts, Loveinhim.


HF:


I agree.


I know, HF, you are right. I do think that she deserves someone who will be totally happy with her, and I would not want to deny her that.

AGG

So true... and a mistake so easy to repeat...

Eh, I dunno if I agree with all of this. Sure, the longer the relationship, the more painful the breakup. Agreed.

Yet, it is a given that it takes time to decide if a relationship is working or not - so unless we see real dealbreakers from the outset, it usually takes time to decide. So yes, it makes the breakup a bit more painful than a "breakup" after three or four dates, but then again, that is all part of dating - getting a clear picture of compatibility, or lack thereof.

I also don't think that a long dating relationship increases the chances of marrying the wrong person. I'd say just the opposite. For me personally, my mistake was getting engaged to my ex after knowing her for only a couple of months. I think most failed marriages are traced to dating relationships that are too short, rather than too long. It's hard to find a substitute for time together in order to get to know a person. Yes, the breakup is bound to be more painful, but less so than a quick marriage followed by a divorce.

AGG

Hey AGG,

I see where both are extremes and either extreme can be seen as bad.

Your first mistake was the opposite of mine, I watch your relationship unfold with G and that is more how my first mistake went.

I do agree that you need to really get to know someone to know for sure, but just how many dates do you really need? I think your gut knew long ago G wasn't for you, yet the physical chemistry and the fun you were having, led you to thinking possibly you need to continue and make sure. I am not saying that is wrong as I do think it helps leaving a relationship with "no regrets", but at the same time, just how many dates do you really need to know when it's not the right person?

You may not think so, but I think the more time you spend with the wrong person, the more chances you will be just way too close to her, clouded by the things you love about her, feeling such a part of her and her a part of you that you will find it very hard to go back to living life without "the wrong person".

Anna

Exactly!

I think the most important thing is do we and how much really know OURSELVES.
Apparently, we just think we know ourselves... we accept 'basket of wrong fruits' just if there is one or two SO GOOD ones in it. And although we know that those one or two will be 'chocked' by the rest from the basket in some time...
I.e. after my M and D, I THINK I know what I need and will run away at the first sign that I cannot have IT with someone.
But I also know that no experience and knowledge can get rid of that greed in us to have that part we need so much, so much we neglect all else... And it is hard. And we find different names and excuses for chosing "to wait and see"...
And that scares me.

I am sure that in most of cases all of us KNEW all shortcomings of our R before M, we just lost it in having first the physical chemistry, then fun, then... HABIT too... After TOO much time we had spent together (i.e. too much 'waiting to see'), we got USED TO all things (that come as a boomerang later on). After a while, we "invested" so much, went so far, built 'history', therefore harder to go back/out of it.

What is a reasonable time to see, how many dates?
Find the middle between 'run away right away' and 'wait and see more, and hope for change'.
We didn't find it before our marriages obviously (although there is no guarantee for this either)... and did we really learn how to find it or just tricking ourselves that we now know what we are doing - time will tell... for all of us...

Uh, I dunno, 2? 3? Is this a trick question Anna? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Seriously, you know the answer as well as I do - it takes whatever it takes to get to know a person. Certainly in the negative, it may take only one date - i.e. if I see something that is a dealbreaker for me (e.g. she goes home with another guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />), there is no need for date #2. But, in the positive, it may take 20, 50, 100 dates or more before you know what to make of compatibility.

I did not see any red flags with G for at least a month, until we moved from simple "dates" to spending more time together, seeing her place, etc. Even then, at that time, they were individual trees that were not (to me) automatic dealbreakers. So it took time to put together the forest. Anyway, I don't think it's a matter of counting "Dates". If it only takes a few dates, why are you still dating J, instead of breaking up or getting married?


It's a bit more than just the chemistry and fun we were having - there were many other good things about her that I loved. So it was a matter of taking in the WHOLE picture, and not running off at first or second sign of trouble.

AGG

Then I suspect you will always be running away, B2M. My experience is that there is no one who is baggage-free out there, and the key is to figure out what baggage you can live with and what baggage you cannot live with.

FWIW, I thought I had seen every possible dysfunction out there in my dating, and I was initially pleased to see that G was free from all of those (mental illness, dysfunctional family, bankruptcies, dishonesty, etc etc). So, none of my standard red flags were anywhere to be seen.

With time, I started seeing all of her patterns that caused me concern, but because I have never experienced life with someone who has a very different sleep pattern than me, or energy level than me, etc, I did not know how it would affect my daily life. So, I did not consider those to be automatic dealbreakers, given how much good stuff there was.

It took time to see how those would affect me, and now I know. And if I see another person who is so far away from me, I'd know to stay away. But, until you try it, you don't know.

You speak of rotten fruit in the basket, and it is a nice example - but I suspect you will not find a person in their 30's or 40's who does not have at least some questionable fruits in their basket - and if your approach is to chock the whole basket if there are some rotten fruit in there, well, you will need to either get very lucky, or you'll be spending lots of time at the Farmer's markets looking for that perfect basket. The key to successful relationships, IMO, is not to look for the perfect basket, but for one where the important fruit are not rotten, even though some other ones might be.

While hindsight is 20/20, it takes time to decide what we can live with and what we can't (again, assuming that there are no automatic dealbreakers to be seen). This is why I don't buy these arguments that "you should have known after a few dates". I am still quite convinced that I did the right thing by giving this relationship the time and effort that I did - it does not leave me with a bunch of "what ifs"...

AGG

Oh, heavens, I knew after two dates that B was the one for me. I married him. The H*LL broke loose.

I'm for a reasonable courtship. A year to 18 months to date. Six to 12 months to be engaged. I think the biggest danger in dating more than 2 years is the two people may be interpretting the relationship and its future in very different ways.

I got you beat... I knew on my first date that my ex was "the one"...

AGG

You just didn't understand me...

What I said - you/we should know ourselves to be able to figure out what we can live with or not at all.

We know no one is baggage free, and we all (should!) know what is exactly our own baggage.

Btw, I would be glad to spend the rest of my life running away Vs. accepting things that would make me unhappy and miserable living with someone...
And would be more glad not to run at all, my legs are getting tired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


So, what's happening now that 'now you know'?


You really didn't understand me...

It depends on what is rotten for ME, i.e. can I live with or not.

Some would accept a drunken. Or a cheater. Or a lazy one. Or (any kind of) abuser. Or (too) selfish. And similar. And "try to work it out".
I would not, would run away, right away, no waiting to 'see', no waiting for changes, not hoping.

AGG, I didn't think of 'small things', like I like yellow he likes blue and that makes a big difference. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Nor 'God, I'm running away for he's tired after the work and wants to rest and that means he'll turn into a couch potato'.
Or similar ridiculous things that you think I meant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I thought of things that, in the long run, would not work for 'us'.


And I never said anything opposite of this.

My 'view's angle' was just different.
You always take the basket as is, bad fruits included, some rotten as well and it's ok so far you can clean it a bit and still use it for a good pie.
And you do NOT take the basket if you have a few/many good apples and many worms on them got out from other fruits.
And we know that only one big worm can make 'miracles'.
Well... some people at this place would take it too, and go fishing.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with this. And I know myself well enough to know what I can and cannot live with. What I am disagreeing with is that the compatibility evaluation can be completed in a matter of a few dates. If there are red flags and dealbreakers, then yes. But otherwise, it takes time.


I plan to have a talk about it with her. Right now she has family in town, so this won't happen for a week or so.


Yes, those are the easy red flags - a drunk, a cheater, unemployed, mentally ill. Those are dealbreakers, at least for me. I did not see any of these issues with G. What I saw, with time, is that our lifestyles are different. Too different for me to want to entangle our lives together. But not as obvious as you make it sound. Perhpas next time I meet someone who seems to be great, but see some clutter in her house, I'd run away, I dunno. Or if I see that she sleeps an hour or two more than me... But in reality, no one will be EXACTLY like me (phew), so I would want to give people the benefit of the doubt and see.. And no, it's not rationalizing and hoping, it's trying to put together the whole picture instead running off at the first "difference".


I know that. And I maintain that the things that "in the longrun would not work for 'us'" take time to identify, process, and act upon.

I don't think we are disagreeing on the principle, B2M, are we? In the end, I have no plans to accept someone with whom I do not see a happy future, just like you. The thing we are discussing here is at which point does one decide that they know the other person enough to decide if there is a future or not. You seem to believe that I should have acted earlier, and that is fine. In the end, though, the result is the same. Except that I feel that I can walk aways without "what ifs". Also, as you said so well, it is often much easier to assess a situation from the outside than when you are involved in it day to day, right?

AGG

You think so or you just do know?
I.e. if you do know, why do you waited to see if you can accept it (in the long run) or not?
And my feeling is that you still don't know what really you should do...

Please don't take it personal, for tt is not just you, it's that all of us have (and might have) the same issue...


It takes time only if some things are not so obvious 'I cannot live with'. And for some of them it does take more time to discover.
But the more you define what you cannot live with the less time you need to be aware of it.


Of course


No, we do not.


Not so. YOU needed that time and you are right to take it.
Just that you should now know. (Me looking from outside.)
To accept it or leave it. (I don't see the third option, do you?)


It depends.
What Anna mentioned and I agree with her, (time), the result is not the same if you chose to leave Vs. to stay but from wrong reasons.


It depends <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
... on writing ability of the autor among other things and reading ability of a reader <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AGG.. I will add something...

I needed and took much more time than you did, 'to see' if I 'can live with' some of my XH's issuses/our differences.
And that time I spent "waiting/working it out" 'buried me' and I stayed... And I don't want you to do the same (If it's possible you do)
So, that's just 'my baggage' talking now to you about this...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Because someone sleeping longer than me is NOT automatically something I can't live with... Because someone who has a messier house than I do is NOT automatically something I can't live with.. etc etc. It's only after we get a chance to see all of these differences and see how they would impact a life together can we make the decision. Like I said, the obvious dealbreakers are easy, the hard ones are those that take time to assess and look at as part of the whole picture. You can't get around that, unless you are extremely instinctive, which I am not. I need time to collect and process data. Once I have done that, I can make a decision on whether the compatibility is there or not.


Exactly right. Which is why the next time I meet someone with these traits, I'd have a more instinctive reaction to them, just like if I meet someone with the other traits I've experienced earlier. But, having never met someone who was messy, inactive, etc, before, it took me time to discover how that would affect me.


Of course there is a third option, I just don't like it - the option to maintain status quo, i.e. neither "take it" (marriage) nor "leave it" (breakup). But like I said, I don't like the third option.

AGG