Sure, I get what you and Anna wrote, I just don't agree with it. At least not with the part that I have been dating G endlessly.


Shrug. Like I said, it took me until just the last couple of weeks to put together the forest; sorry if it wasn't quick enough for your tastes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I do agree that I am having trouble finding the opportunity to have a chat with G. Not to make excuses, but we just got back from a vacation with me and my kids (not the best time to break up), then I focused on her 40th B-day (not the best time to break up), and now her sister is in town (not the best time to break up). I know, you'll say I am rationalizing, and to some extent I am, but I also don't feel that anything earth shattering has happened that I must have an instant breakup with G. I need to have the talk with her, I know that, but I also feel it can wait for a few days.


That's a different issue. I am not saying that I expect the breakup to be easy, and although I want to avoid this, it is possible that it will drag out over several conversations, and not be the clean break that I'd prefer to have. Still, it is a different issue from "dating endlessly before making a decision".

AGG

Giving it some time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Hope as nice as I am? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

According to my schedule at work, time for my son, an exam in two months, among other 'duties' for my parents and friends... you will have to wait some longer time... to be nice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I have to run now; have whole five hours before my alarm clock hits my dreams. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

To be con't <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Exactly, thanks for saving my typing fingers B2M!


EXACTLY AGAIN! You made this sooo easy for me. I will go get in my shower a few minutes earlier now that I see you did all the work for me B2M. Thanks again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anna

You bet, I promise!

AGG

As I said before, there are two issues/points here. One is, have I waited tool long to "decide" about our compatibility, the whole "endless dating" line. The other is, now that I know how I see our compatibility, will it be easy for me to breakup with G.

I'll address the second one first. Yes, I agree with the skepticism, because I know how hard it is for me to break up with someone whom I like very much in the present, but just don't see a future with them. So it feels a little like cutting off my nose to spite my face. I know it needs to be done, and I will do it, but I am not making any promises about the timing.

The other issue is the one I largely do not accept; the argument of "endless dating". As we all know, there are several stages to dating: Infatuation, Uncertainty, Negotiation, and, if we get there, Acceptance. Now, if I take the argument that "you should have ran away as soon as you saw the signs", I would have been bolting during Uncertainty, which all books say NOT to do. They say Uncertainty is normal, and it is important to get through it, try Negotiation, and try to get to Acceptance. And that is what I did. I have no regrets for not bailing out during Uncertainty.

Now, if the red flags were things like addictions, that would be a different story. But there weren't such issues, they were issues of compatibility, which certainly gave me pause, but were not grounds for jumping out. So, like I said, I still believe I did the right thing by not breaking up right away.

I should point out that there are lots of people who DO in fact do endless dating; those in long distance relationships, those who say they won't introduce their kids to their partner, and those who simply want to "go slow"; as a result, these people see each other once a week or less, in very confined and limited interactions. They do not truly entangle their lives in any way, they simply "date". And they can do this for years, and it will be "great". This, to me, is endless dating. If I had done this with G, I would probably still be on cloud 9 - as I said, she is great to go on fun dates with. Yet we deliberately decided to not do that, but to try to see each other enough to see how compatible our lives together would be. And we did that, and we found out. But there is no endless dating here, sorry to say.

I could also be one of those typical "guys" (I am thinking of Lexxxy's and GG's BFs, although I know there are many others) who basically date without being willing to be tied down to any discussion about the future. Heck, if I did that, I would have no need to break up with G - present is great, don't ask me about tomorrow.

These are the relationships that lead to the accusations of "commitment phobia". In reality, there is no phobia, there is simply no interest in a commitment, even though the dating is great. I am trying to take the higher ground and avoid doing this to G, though I think some would say "why are you obsessing about the future (SPOUSE HUNTING!), just enjoy the occasional interactions and see what happens. One day at a time!".

And before y'all say that it won't happen, we had a thread on this very topic a while back, and quite a few of you weighted in on the "one day at a time" side vs. the "spouse hunting" or trying to decide if a person could be a spouse to you someday. So I think I am actually going out of my way to do the right thing (IMO) and break off this relationship, even though it works very nicely for me "in the present", and I could ask "why am I worrying about the future if the present is good?".

AGG

You didn't even need to talk to your gf to get some new excuses, pardon, reasonings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


AGG,

All I wanted to say is - I don't want you to make mistake I did, and as many people did.

I exactly know where you are now. Been there. For some great things I had with him, although felt the rest wouldn't bring me happiness 'in the long run', I couldn't leave, finding excuses, making 'final decision' that one day I'll break up with him, but not now, a bit later on, then after hours/days having with him that great part of our R I would prolong and prolong the break up, and after 3 years I was changed, so far from outside world, couldn't imagine myself starting from the beginning, with unknown, 'known' made me feel 'safe', get used to all bad sides, felt them known-secure with... Etc.

And if you compare my 4 yrs vs. your 9 mths... just keep thinking that way you talk now and soon it'll be 4 yrs... Well, if you are not rushed by your gf to get M sooner of course.

However, and again, I just don't want you to make mistake I did.

Well, even if you do, we know what's bad M, resentment and frustrations, we know what's D, and we know we can be happy after that again too.

Also, there is always that smaller % for this in statistics that wins at the end (if M), and there is always a hope that you are in that smaller %.

Got this one too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Point well taken. Thanks, B2M. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

You are very welcome, a good guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

GG,

On your two points/issues…

Point 1. Whether you did or didn't date G too long is a very minor point in my opinion as it's water under the bridge, and an experience either way. I don’t even think you’ll know this answer for a long time.

Point 2. I think your point seems a little different from mine. Yours is, "Now that you know, will it be easy to break up with G or not?" Mine is “This post seems very close to ones before and it still hints of “At first I really did see why we aren’t compatible but as the clock ticks down to the break up moment, “Give me excuses not to break up with G and I’ll throw in some really good points for her to help you all out.”

I just keep thinking G will probably help you with those. Every time you come up with reasons why your incompatible, G wants babies, messiness, doesn’t want a pre-nup, takes hours to get ready, loves to sleep in, not as kid friendly….G always seems to turn the position around to your way of thinking. I think this time will be no different mainly because you seem to be screaming out just like before, “Give me reasons not to break up.”

I am trying to put my finger on why this argument bothers me. I guess it sounds like the person who threw quotes out of context back in my face when things are never just black and white. I’ve seen you say this before, “The books I read say it’s okay for me to….”,



Okay, why do you need to point out that others do endless dating or all the different ways to do endless dating or the wrong ways to date? First these people aren’t you, you were from the beginning looking for a partner to marry some day. I don’t understand the comparison. Point is there are all types of ways, different situations, different people, but what does that have to do with you?

The only things I see in this paragraph are 1. it almost seems like your making excuses just in case you decide to keep it going with G that perhaps your dating her isn’t as bad as what others are doing and 2. It sounds like a person who make excuses for what they may be doing because there are even people doing it worse than they do. An extreme example I am sure but like, “I only stabbed him with a knife and that isn’t as near as bad as you shooting him with your gun.”

Don’t you think that is just clouding the issues you face and clouding the water of what your own goals are?

And as for your comment on “spouse hunting” verses “one day at a time”, I never read this thread, yet I’ve seen and read other opinions regarding this topic, I even saw some dating show where the girl was “spouse hunting”, she looked quite desperate which men could see through immediately, and the team of dating experts showed her how it was getting her no where and helped her losen up at first and enjoy the dating scene. Just like your quote on books talking about the uncertainty issues, it really sounds like you are taking the one day at a time out of context again. You and G are past the have fun and see where it goes stage, you are in a relationship and you now do need to determine whether your compatible or not. I would doubt seriously that too many would disagree with that, perhaps there are always a few but not the majority.

GG, I am just saying, be careful, it is so hard for anyone to break up with the person who was "almost the one" and think about starting all over, yet it is so much easier for that person to continue in the wrong relationship and not have to deal with starting over.

I am trying to help you see the pattern that I am seeing, your words say one thing but your arguments say another and I think even though your relationship should be over with G, I think G was "your almost one", it just seems that you really, REALLY don't want it to be over even though your gut knows it should be.

Anyway, good luck with your choices.

Anna

PS: Anna, thanks, it's my turn 'to take a shower'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Love you guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You are welcome, we sure seem to be on the same page on this one. Team work. Too funny!

AGG,

I went through a lot of lifestyle incompatibility issues with my fiance. I know I was advised many times that he was way too different.

The advice was correct. The issues I had with Fiance were that I was a family gal and he was a buddy boy.

He changed. That's all I can say. He acknowledged that his lifestyle was not conducive to a relationship and over time he took the steps necessary to "give up" those aspects of his life that were incompatible with mine.

It wasn't easy on either of us but it was something he made happen and I am grateful.

If G isn't making the necessary changes and you feel you've been patient, then you have to assume that she just can't make the leap.

I'm grateful that my fiance did change - he is a really great loving guy in many ways, like G.

V.

V,

Thanks for sharing this. I wish I had the same hopes for me and G.

But, I think that our differences are wider than something that can be fixed by her "changing". Sure, she can take some small steps, and so can I. But, in the end, we would have to accept the remaining differences, and I think that they would still be too big for me to accept.

When we tried to break up in June, G promised that she will make a bunch of changes; not for me, but because she knew her lifestyle has become incompatible with having a partner. I didn't think she could really change herself that much, but I decided to give it a try.

Well, three months later, not a thing has changed. Which does not surprise me. Besides, I would be very leary of someone changing "for me" - my expectation would be that people do not change for others, only for themselves - so I'd fully expect her to grow back into her old patterns the minute the knot was tied.

I know I sound very pessimistic, but I also don't want to hope for something that I have seen no reason to hope for. I am glad that your BF changed to where you feel compatible with him; unfortunatley, I don't see it happening with me and G.

When is the wedding date, BTW? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AGG

Sooooo... what's the final verdict, AGG??? I need to know how you are doing with this so I can head back into retirement... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You know, been thinking about you and G since you posted AGG, and, believe it or not, I find myself vacillating b/w, yup, she's not the one for him and hmmmm, gosh they get on so well in the major aspects (sex, kids, temperment, views), so what's the big deal cuz she likes to pretty up, not get dirty, doesn't clean, sleeps late blah blah....maybe we're just looking for Mr/Ms Perfect and not Mr/Ms. Right......

Then I remembered. The tone in your posts re: G these last few months. Your descriptions of her paint a picture of a very sweet, yet unmotivated, high-maintainence Hollywood-esque Princess, who's just looking for a man to take over for Daddy. Sorry to sound harsh, but that's how it's coming across to me......

Definitely sounds like you are losing respect for her and that is HUGE. I'M starting to lose respect for her and I don't even know her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

G is who she is. You are who you are. Try not to delay your parting. I know easier said than done, especially when you do get on so well, but she deserves to be w/ someone who can truly accept and respect her as is, as do you.......

Who_Dat:

Sorry bud, you're gonna have to wait a bit more before going back to retirement; this is still a work in progress <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.



DW:

Yup, good description, that is why I have been vacillating too... The "good" is really good, the "bad" is really bad, but lots of the differences, taken individually, can be brushed off as "oh, come on, so what if someone sleeps late", etc. That's why it takes time to put together the full picture.


I wish it were that simple. In reality, she's not at all a Hollywood-esque princess, and I think she is actually fairly low-maintenance. Believe me, I have seen my share of the high maintenance LA chicks, and I can spot them from a mile away (and run for the hills).

G is actually one of those people who truly sees human relations as being first and foremost on her priority list. So she wants to spend all her free time being with her partner. But, somehow, this desire got to the point of not wanting to "waste" time on things like household chores, cooking, cleaning, etc, and rather focus on being together. It's almost like a good idea gone bad - "focus on your relationship with your partner (good) to the point of letting everything else go to pot (bad)". Does that make sense? I know Harley is a big proponent of quality time together (the whole 15 hours of undivided attention), but unless you live a vacation lifestyle, other things need to be taken care of too - and I don't see G doing that.

Another part of this is what I meant by her "free" time - between her sleep and getting ready routine, it is not very much. Oddly, I don't think that she tries to be pretty to impress others (i.e. the glamour element), I think it is almost some kind of insecurity, like she won't be loved or accepted without being fully "clean", dressed up, etc. It's sad for me that she emphasizes that so much, but it is something that clearly goes back to her high school days. She is very conscious of her appearance, and has always tried to maintain it. Even though this focus apparently killed her previous relationship, and is about to kill this one. And of course the older we get, the more effort this would require, so the future doesn't look very promising rither.

But, I cannot analyze her, it is not my job, and I am not qualified. All I know are the behaviors that I see, and regardless of WHY she is the way she is, her priorities, choices, and habits really bother me. I wish they didn't, but they do.

AGG

I hope I didn't come off too harsh on G earlier, b/c you've clearly stated alot more positives than negatives about her but, like you said, it's unfortunate that her priorites, choices etc aren't on the same level as yours.

One question, if her energy level increased and she bucked up to her share of household responsibilites, would her focus on her appearance bother you as much?

I imagine that even though she's not a typical LA girl, living in the area has certainly influenced her. Trust me, I'm not judging her. Quite the contrary. I'm not one to cast stones. I admit that my appearance is very important to me also--I do my nails, hair, stay fit, I'm into fashion, but I also mow my own lawn (almost an acre thankyouverymuch! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />), play softball w/ BF's team, and scrub a mean terlit.....

How will you tell G? What will you say? I imagine G is going to be shocked, especially when she appears to have made a effort, and it still not enough. Not knocking you AGG, b/c I really believe your concerns about those differences are very valid.

Curious, have you ever mentioned to her that you thought it was odd that her Dad essentially supports her, even though she has her own career? What was your response, at the time, when she mentioned that she would like to stay at home after marriage?

You did say to her, back in June, that you are looking for an equal partner, one to share in the load of life's daily activities and not someone to support and who could supervise others to do the work? She was clear on that?

Not at all!


Glad that that message came through, because I do see it that way!


Well, that is a hypothetical question, and those are always tough to answer. I'll answer it this way - sure, if the ONLY thing that we had a difference in was the focus on appearance, then it'd be fine. But it's not, not by far, and so it becomes just one additional annoyance, another tree in the forest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Precisely.. If G had all the "but" things going for her that you mention, it'd be a non-issue. But she doesn't - she seems to do little more than sleep, get ready/dressed, work, and relax. I know it sounds nasty, but that is all I see.


There is no way to say it "nicely". What I do think of saying when I bring this up is not as much "honey, we have a problem" as "honey, I am bummed that nothing has really changed in the past three months". I doubt it'll make it any better, but at least it kinda reminds her that we already had a "problem", so this should not be a huge surprise. But it will be, I know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.



We discussed this, and it is just the way she was brought up. Her dad is very generous, hard to fault him for that. Her mom stayed home (of course she raised three kids). So it seems like G learned some lessons growing up (as we all do) which now seem like "normal" to her, though I still do not know anyone who has a college degree but whose goal in life is to not work and just relax all day long. It sounds appealing, but it also sounds very sad.


Yup. I used the example of Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston from "The Breakup", where Jeniffer broke up with Vince because he was lazy, for lack of a better term. G and I saw the movie together. Well, she didn't see herself as Vince at all, even though in my eyes that is exactly how she is. Go figure. So I doubt I'll ever be able to "explain" this to her - she won't see it my way, of course.

AGG

Well, FWIW, we just had a long phone chat about "us", something that we haven't had in months.

I mentioned that I am having a very hard time getting over some of our differences, and her perspective was interesting.

She said that it's important to accept your partner without judging them, that everyone will have some differences. I view it differently - I believe that in CHOOSING a partner, it is not only OK, it is imperative to be picky and to not simply accept differences - that is what leads to resentment and problems down the line. It's the whole EN thing - Harley, IMO, is right that if ENs are not met, love tends to wither. G seems to have more of a "love counquers all" approach, which I do not believe to be the case.

Another interesting point she made is that she wants to be just accepted "as is", and to be allowed to be herself, and do her own stuff. I heard this comment a while back from her, and again, I think it spells trouble. While we all want to be accepted, we also should be challenged and motivated by our partner, as GDP said. And from G's comments, I can see that she will use this outlook to justify whatever behaviopr she decides to adopt later on - not working, relaxing all the time, etc.

Anyway, nothing earth shattering, but I think we have started the chatting, which has been a challenge in the recent past.

AGG

That's certainly a step!

I don't envy your future "chats".
Exactly why this non dating life is looking so appealing to me these days. UGH.

Karona