That should really get you far.. Perhaps a nice lecture chewing his [censored] out for being with you and then going over to see the OW? I wouldn't bother wasting your time with a lecture about "fairness" because it will avail you nothing. Have you read the book we told you about so you understand the mindset of a WS? What about lovebusters? Do you know anything about those?

I don't want to chew his [censored] out at all. I just want to understand...no, I haven't gotten the book yet, and I have read about lovebusters on the site, and I know to stay away from them. I don't want to argue with him or yell at him in any way. I've read several other posts and all over this site trying to understand his mindset, but I still don't and probably never will, because I would never cheat on anyone.

Most WS's that I've read about have cheated, but felt bad and want their marriages to work. Mine cheated and wants a divorce right away without seeing that things can be better between us. He just wants out. I haven't read about that aspect anywhere. That's what I'm having a hard time with.

I just want him to come home and choose me again.

Steph, your WS is like about 99% of the those written about on this forum. Most DON't FEEL bad, don't want their marriages to work and "want a divorce." That is the RULE, an expectation. No one is asking you to AGREE with his mindset, but to UNDERSTAND IT, and you won't understand what you are dealing with until you do a little footwork here and start reading.

And it sure sounded like you wanted to chew his [censored] out and I have no doubt he would take it just like that when you demand that he be "fair" and explain how he could go see the OW after he was with you. That will get you nowhere except it will make the OW look so much more attractive.

Go get that book and read!

No, I didn't mean for to sound like I wanted to chew his [censored] out, it just hurts to think that's what he's doing and I don't understand it. And it's NOT fair that he's doing it and thinks its OK. He told me the other day that neither of them meant for this to happen. Do all WS's say that too? He honestly believes that he's more in love with her than me.

BTW, I'm getting the book first thing in the morning. I ran out of time to get it today.

I'm going to try and focus on "us" tonight and I'm not going to do ANY lovebusting, or R talk. I'm just going to try and have a good time while he's here and show him what he's missing!

I'm a little nervous, but it'll be OK. I just hope he's nervous too, for the right reasons.

It almost does feel like a "first date". Is that normal?

I was almost stood up last night and I would have been if I hadn't have called WH. He said he was afraid of making things more "complicated". He keeps saying that and I don't understand it. I told him he was the one making it complicated. He realized that after I said it.

But he ended up coming over and we had a nice dinner together and watched a movie.

He has a hard time looking at me though and he acts nervous when he's around me. He says he doesn't know why. We didn't talk much. We're both a little nervous to be around each other anymore.

He did tell me that he still has feelings for me and later told me he still loves me. But later, he also said he doesn't miss me, but he thinks about me a lot and wonders how I'm doing here at the house by myself.

But, later after that, he said he was confused about "everything". He would have spent the night if he had had clothes to wear to work this morning.

I didn't push him into talking to me about anything. We talked a little about Sunday and how it was so emotional but he didn't know why. I think he does, he just doesn't want to admit it. So I told him it was because it was love.

I'm (finally) learning not to listen to him or argue with him when he says stuff. I'm hoping its the fog.

I also found it interesting that not one word was mentioned about OW by either of us. Usually he'll mention something about her and how they didn't mean for this to happen, or how happy she makes him or something along those lines. So, the fact that he didn't say anything about her or divorce is promising, right?

I've also been doing some thinking and I've come to realize that I am partially at fault for his wayward ways. I wasn't meeting his EN's the way I should have and I didn't realize that. And I did nag and b**** too much. Who wants to come home to that everyday? I can't hardly blame him for cheating and finding someone happier than I was.

So now it's up to me to show him how I've changed, because I wanted to, not just to save my marriage, but to keep both of us happy. It's just going to be hard, because he doesn't live here anymore and he doesn't call me or want to hang out (he thinks it's weird since we're separated). And I don't want to keep asking him over and looking desperate or whatever. Any ideas on how to do this???

ok, Steph, NOW you are getting it! You are starting to see how you pushed him away and how he became detached from you. That being said, you CAN blame him for cheating because he is 100% responsible for that choice. You are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage, though. But as long as you can SEE how you contributed to this unhappy marriage, you have a chance of correcting it.

He is still in a fogged out state and is still addicted to the OW. Your kindness is confusing him, i assure you. He expected you to go psycho and banish him and that hasn't happened. So, he has to rethink things because of your actions.

As far as asking him over, be as subtle as you can. Chasing him will make him run. So back off a little and be clever here. For example, don't call him at all for a couple of days and then maybe call him on Sunday just to ask him a question. Get him talking and laughing and try to have a very pleasant conversation. But, don't talk longer than 10 minutes and be sure and BE THE ONE WHO ENDS THE CALL.

Let's see how he responds to that.



PERFECT! See, the OW doesnt' nag and bi*** so remember that everytime you get a notion to nag. Every time you nag or act otherwise unpleasant, it makes HER look good.

WOOOO HOOOO -- You are getting it!

Attract him.
Entice him.
Admire him.
Laugh with him.
Enjoy him.

Make every interaction with you a good one -- enjoyable.
He will come around.

No pressure, no relationship talks, no controlling him, no demands, no educating him

Mel is right. Don't chase. Maybe in a day or two -- call him. Light and fun. Ask him a question -- honey, where did you leave the ***? Oh thanks....had fun Thursday night, great to see you, flirt then GET OFF THE PHONE FIRST (very important!) "omigosh is it already 5 o'clock -- I've got to run! thanks for you help! bye honey!"

I'm so glad you guys are proud of me. I'm kind of proud of myself.

It was his anger that was really getting to me. At least now he's admitting that he's confused.

And, to make matters better, I bought Surviving an Affair this morning and am currently reading it. I hope to get through it tonight.

I told him last night as he was leaving, (very casually) that he could come hang out over here on Sunday if he wanted. I have to call him anyway to get $$ from him, so I'll wait until Sunday to ask him about it. And he'll have to come over to give it to me. I'm going to let him come to that conclusion though...what do you think about this plan??

Sounds good! Doesn't it feel good to have a STRATEGIC PLAN instead of allowing your emotions to lead you all over the place? You have caught on and now we can get to work attracting him back. As you attract him back with your good behavior, you will confuse him.

The more you confuse him, the more he will pull away frm the OW. The more he pulls away from her the more conflict it will cause in the affair and then she will start LOVEBUSTING. She does not have benefit of the MB program and will start making big mistakes. As conflict occurs in the affair, the more attractive you will look to him until the affair crumbles.

After you consistently demonstrate some good behavior here and show him how good a marriage with you can be, then you can go into Plan B. Plan A is the GATEWAY to Plan B. So, when you go into Plan B, he will remember how pleasant you were in Plan A.

See where we are going with this?

Does your husband like to fix things? Some men LOVE to be asked to fix things. Look for opportunities to ask him to fix something for you and/or ask his advice about something in which he is knowledgable. Men like to be NEEDED and then admired for their efforts.

Go take a look at the articles about emotional needs on this website and see if you can identify his.

OK, let's slow down here Mel, I'm a little confused again!

I'm not as emotional, which is a good thing, it means that I can have a plan and be strong enough to follow it through, BUT, here's my confusion...if I do a fabulous Plan A and he wants to come home, do I HAVE to do Plan B, since he's already moved out? Doesn't Plan A alone work sometimes?

Stay with me and don't get frustrated by all my questions and confusion! I'm trying! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

My H us not a fixer jof things. He doesn't really know how to fix anything that I can think of. I'll keep thinking of something he can do for me and ask him about it. That's gonna be a tough one though.

BTW, if you still read me, Orchid, my heart and mind are finally in sync! I'm finally STARTING to get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes Stph -- Plan A all by itself is sometimes enough.
Then we scrap Plan B and celebrate!

All WS follow the same basic script, but they feel pain in different ways. Sometimes the pain of exposure is enough to snap them back to reality. Sometimes the guilt of what they are doing to this great person (their BS) will do it. Sometimes they have to feel it all slipping away.

So what we know is that your husband isn't behaving any differently than any other WS. And we can coach you all the way through these plans. What is absolutely inevitable is that you are going to be fine -- even great. This affair will end. Its just a matter of time.

So many people experience infidelity. And a great many of them don't have the benefit of learning the psychology and pathology of affairs. You have a tremendous tool here. You have a tried and proven plan.

Affairs happen because of some weaknesses in the marital environment. We're gonna help you fix those. So the whole reason for your husband to have an affair goes away. (He's gonna try to cling to it, because he's twisted everything in his mind.) But pretty soon his rationalizations won't make any sense to him.

He choose you. He married you.
Why? Tell us about your courtship and what you loved about each other.

Study those EN's. You met those needs better than any other woman he dated before -- to the point he wanted to be with you for the rest of his life. So how did you do it? And where do you think the breakdown is?

Once you've identified those -- make it better.

Now consistantly show him. Be that woman again. Meet all of his needs, even though he doesn't deserve it.
OW can't compete with that. Not even close!

My boyfriend just loves to be admired. So I gush over everything he does. I stroke his ego until he is like a big ol puppy dog wagging his tail. And I love seeing him like that. It makes us both happy!

You might get some strange reactions from him -- just like you did the other day...when he said it was strange to be having dinner with your "divorcee". You've got to learn to ignore alot of this stuff. Its him trying to get his world back to where he thinks its in control.

He thinks he's set on this course of action -- but Plan A will pull him back to you -- and make him confused, and angry cuz his world will be in chaos! He knows what he has with you -- OW is an unknown.

I've been thinking and rethinking our courtship and what we loved about each other for weeks now trying to figure out what it was that got us.

The main thing, I think, was our sense of humor. We love to laugh and nobody makes us laugh harder or more often than each other. We just had fun together, no matter what we did.

I fell in love with him because he took care of me, he made me feel safe, secure and loved.

Neither one of us has the greatest self-esteem (although I'm sure his has grown tremendously now that he has 2 women "fighting" over him), but we constantly told each other how attracted we were to each other. He actually made me believe that I was beautiful. No one has ever done that before.

He was my rock, I knew I could always count on him to be there for me and to always take care of me in every way.

And the more I think about our early days, the more I realize that he hasn't met my EN's for a LONG time now. And that confuses me too, because he hasn't been doing any of the things I listed above, so I shouldn't still be in love with him, right?

But I am, and I don't know what his EN's are or what it was that made him fall in love with me. The only thing I really know is that he loves my smile and he loves to make me smile and laugh. I know I haven't done enough of that for him, but I don't really know what else I'm not giving him. And he's not ready to tell me yet. All he tells me is that he's tired of the fighting.

I really have no idea what I did to make him want to spend the rest of his life with me or how to get that back.

And the really sad part is, we don't really know how to be together anymore. Last night, there really was no conversation. I don't know how to talk to him or how to get him to laugh or anything that we could do before with no problem. Now my fear is never getting that back. It was almost uncomfortable to have him here. We just didn't talk. I had no idea what to say to him, even everyday conversation was hard. And he didn't know what to say to me. Small talk was a stretch for us. If it really were a first date for us, I don't think there would be a 2nd. We've even lost our friendship that we started out at. He did make a comment that I made him nervous, but he didn't tell me why. Maybe that was part of the problem. Bottom line is Plan A is going to be harder than ever if we don't know how to even be friends and have normal conversation and attempt to have fun together. That'll never bring him back to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You know how to be together, but he stopped trusting that you knew, so he went elsewhere to get his needs met. The intimacy has been erased by years of lovebusters. But you can get that back with alot of hard work.... and patience.

The first thing you have to do is demonstrate that you are done fighting. He needs to know that you are AWARE of the damage you did to the marriage and that you don't want that old marriage back. That you are done fighting and want to laugh again. It will take time, Steph, but you can do this if you will just be patient. That means that you cannot lovebust. Every lovebuster undoes all your progress.

Instead of trying to be with him at your home where he is real uneasy, why not try to start slow? Start by chatting wtih him on the phone where he feels safe? Try to laugh and flirt with him on the phone. Be as pleasant as you can. Start with baby steps and then graduate.

We did talk on the phone last Sunday and he ended up coming over. Every time I talk to him, I feel I'm being pleasant. I would want to talk to me. And last night, I called him, but I didn't force him to come over at all. I even told him that if he didn't want to be here, it was fine. We just get nervous around each other and the conversation is just gone.

I've tried really hard not to lovebust since this whole thing started. I admit, I've failed a couple of times, by losing my temper at his fog-talk, but I think I've held it together quite well given the circumstances. And now that I have a better understanding of lovebusting, it'll be more on my conscience and I won't do it when we talk. It shouldn't be too hard, we don't argue anymore. That's been nice.

But, how do I even flirt with him, without being sexual? Or should I be sexual?

I just don't know how to show him the changes I want to make in our marriage without him being here and us hardly talking. He won't call me and I don't want to keep calling him...I can only come up with so many excuses. We don't even have kids to use as communication or a reason to want to stay together, and there's not anything I need to tell him about our dog and cat!

He is nervous around you because a) he feels guilty and b) he is emotionally DETACHED from you. I wonder also if he is scared of getting beat up by you becuase he knows he is being bad. So, it will be important to get across the message that you are DONE ball busting him and are willing to change and willing to forgive him IF he ends his affair and comes back. He needs to know this, Steph, but say it at the right time so it doesn't come across as a plea for him to return. See what I mean?

I suspect it is easier for him to talk on the phone with you instead of seeing you in person. So, just play it by ear like we told you and soften him up on the phone. Be as pleasant as possible. And I think you understand now the damage you cause by lovebusting, so you should be able to make some progress now.

And yes, you will want to be sexual when you flirt with him. He is your husband, after all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When you finish this post, go read all the articles linked on this page, especially "lovebusters." I know you are catching onto this, but it is real important that you fully understand what constitutes a lovebuster.

I understand what you're saying, but I've NEVER gotten ANGRY with him for cheating on me. And he knows that. He doesn't understand why I'm not mad, but he knows that I'm not. I've even told him and everyone else (I may have even posted it) that as devastated as I am that he did do this, I'm not angry about it. I do forgive him and have from the beginning. I don't understand how he could do that instead of talking to me about his unhappiness, but that's the difference between him and me.

I have to call him on Sunday anyway, so I'll play it by ear, flirt a little, and see what happens.

He's ended up coming over when we talk on the phone and I don't see Sunday being any different. We talk about sex and end up doing it. Is that bad? Is he having his cake and eating it too when we do? Should I stop? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have to call him tomorrow and I'm a little nervous about it. Which makes me crazy, because he's my husband!! I shouldn't be nervous because I have to call him. I'm just having a bad night. I've been confused all night tonight...about what I want, how to go about getting what I want, what he wants, when he's going to realize what he wants...everything is starting to get to me.

It might be easier to just give up and give him what he thinks he wants (divorce). I just don't know what to do.

Go paint your toenails and stop thinking. Stick to the plan!

My toenails are painted!

I can't help but think. I finished SAA today. Nobody told me it was going to be so hard of a book to read. It brought everything back to the surface and hurt all over again.

So, what's my plan now?

Am I going to have these up and down days? I don't think I can take it much longer.