Dear Friends--I have not been here in a very long time. I am currently struggling with FWH's use of internet porn to masturbate. I find this particularly offensive since I have strong lingering issues with feeling sexually (and otherwise) inadequate since the A, as well as struggling to reclaim trust.
Last time I caught him, he was very embarrassed and remorseful, saying he would never want to lose me over something like this. With the latest incident, he informs me he has been masturbating since age 13, porn is a necessary adjunct, and while he has tried to cut back, it is unlikely he would be able to quit.
Is this a "normal" biological requirement that I should force myself to accept, or is there some other reasonable response I should attempt?
--DT
Ps: finding his sites on the computer caused serious flashbaqck to Ddays. Ouch!!!

Porn can be a psychological addiction, in my opinion. If he's been using it to masturbate since he was 13, then its probably pretty wired in there. I'm not saying that it necessarily will always be addictive, or it's wrong, but people develop certain preferences and things they do when they masturbate, habitually, you know? I dont think he's trying to hurt you, or thinks any less of you. However, by the fact that he is hurting you, he should seriously look into doing something about it, if it is an addiction. I'm sure he's not doing it as a conscious decision to be unfaithful towards you. Just my guess, though, knowing men.

there may be two facets to the problem:

A) he isnt getting sex enough with you

B) he's addicted/associates sex with just a physical action.

Your best approach is to address BOTH needs.

From what he says, B) is definately sounding in play. but you also need to address A).

To address B), I would suggest that you try to help him understand that it hurts your feelings. a LOT. and also, that it diminishes your own "special" thoughts of sex as intimacy between you. Things along those lines.

Dont use the tired old "it degrades women", blah blah. that wont work, and portrays you as "one of 'them'". Try to build a connection between you. He wont be interested in stopping, until he understands and internalizes that his actions are doing damage to your relationship.
Right now, he feels entitled, and you are "wrong" to try to take it away from him.

If he gets to the point where he is interested in stopping... then I suggest you then help him as much as possible. That is to say, any time he expresses a need for SF... give it to him. If he wants "relief" 3 times a day every day, give it to him.

Right now, he probably feels like porn is neccessary, to "meet his male needs". Show him that you can meet his hormonal needs.

if you just expect him to "get tough, and get committed and control himself", you're in for a big disappointment. he needs your help.

Giving him what he needs, when he needs it, serves two purposes:

1. It proves to him that you are ready and willing to meet his needs.
One of the draws of porn, is that it is always there, always available, and always has the appearance of being "happy" to be with him. That can be very important to the male ego.

2. if you're "letting him have it" 3 times a day or whatever, his little fella is going to be just too worn out to play anywhere else <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

See if you can get him into sexual addiction counseling. Find a good therapist that specializes in this. They're out there. My H is going and it is helping tremendously. If you happen to be Christian, find a Christian counselor that deals in this.

Okay. I'm going to voice my opinion here, because I think this is a very important subject and needs to be handled from multiple angles.

1) Just because he masturbates doesn't necessarily or automatically mean he isn't getting enough sex or that he is a sex addict. It also doesn't mean that he views sex as just a 'physical action,' that he is doing it because he thinks you are unattractive, or that he thinks any less of you because he is doing it.

2) Porn is porn. Yeah, some people out there have serious problems. I wouldn't say, though, that everyone who looks at porn is a pervert or a sex addict. That's just stereotyping. Just because he looks at porn does NOT automatically mean that he finds these women more attractive than you, or that he is comparing you to them. It doesn't mean that he'd rather be with them, or that you don't satisfy him. Men are VISUAL creatures, BIOLOGICALLY. We are aroused by what we see. Would a man get all bent out of shape if he caught his wife masturbating while reading a romance novel? No (most likely, he'd be incredibly aroused by it and want to help).

Women need to take a step back and think about this before they blow their tops and/or get all bent out of shape because their husbands look at porn and/or masturbate. There is always a chance that there could be a problem, however you should not jump to conclusions.

In the end, though, if the porn really does bother you that much, then you do have the right to ask him to get rid of it. If he really does love you, then he should do so with no problems at all.

Porn is virtual infidelity. If he masturbates to images of other women he is being unfaithful to you in his thoughts and that is offensive to you. I believe you are perfectly right.

At MB, it is considered independent behavior. It is counter to radical honesty and to the POJA.

TheRogueX:
What you are saying is not representative of MB.

My WW used explicit (disgusting to me) novels as a form of female porn sex and at the time I didn’t have the vocabulary and knowledge to say why I felt offended. But I was.

On the “natural” aspect of the need for sex, let me just say that it is given that the need is natural biological, but the way to satisfy it thru a computer is far from natural. A simple picture is already highly artificial. It is frozen in time; there is no one really there etc. Using such a highly technologically developed medium as a computers and the internet to see sexually explicit video, and pictures, web cams conferencing and the like is an utterly non natural and is an artificial way to respond to this natural need. If it taps into this natural need, stimulates it with ways that deter it from it’s normal and natural object, his wife, that is bad enough. But cyber porn also continues to keep it away from its normal course. It can be said that it perverts that natural need.

DLK21

I can understand your sensitivity to this issue at this time. You have been wounded and your feelings are more than reasonable.

As far as the masturbation thing goes.. I have some suggestions... first, if he NEEDS porn to be stimulated enough to masturbate... then I think there is a big problem. Masturbation for most is the satisfying of a physical urge... yet if he needs porn, it sounds as though he is CREATING the urge by looking at these women.

I would suggest that you two try something new. Give him YOU to fantasize about. Maybe make masturbation an acceptable part of your time together... not to say he can never do it on his own if he wants to... but if you two incorporate that activity into your some of your time together... it could be fun and re direct his attention to the one he loves. Yes, I am talking about watching each other... it could be a very satisfying experience for both of you.

There is also the possibility that he is looking at this stuff as a way to fantasize about you... seeing you in different situations that he has been unable to express. Heck... if he needs visual stimulation... one thing that can be loads of fun is making your own home "movies."

I just wanted to give you some things to consider that might help meet the needs of both partners here! Good luck... and have fun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dear DesperatelyTrying.
Your H does it in secret - he doesn't want you to know - it has to do with sex and other women - triggers all over the place for you.

In my experience the brain gets conditioned to respond with a physical need for masturbation in response to stress.
Stress = the person becomes aroused and needs to masturbate (or have sex) to release this stress.
Others might "need a drink" or feel the urgent need to smoke..
If they're so conditioned.
Of course a combination of all these is also possible.
This goes far beyond a normal physical need.
It's a conditioning that can be reversed.

So far for my amateur psychology talk.
I do think therapeutic help would be beneficial for your H, as suggested by other posters.

my H has the same problem. I could care less if he did it 10 times a day. ONLY IF... he showed ME attention.

He seems rather content using porn and his hand. I've asked him to stop. He says ok. He doesn't. I've asked him how he would feel if I did it. He said he'd feel the same way as me. But that still doesn't stop him. He says he does it if we haven't had sex in a while. That's a lie because we had sex one night, and he jacked off the next morning.

He hides it too. I hid his tapes, so he goes and buys magazines. He uses the internet most of the time.

He waits till I'm asleep, shower or gone to do it. If we have sex, 98% it's because I asked him. He isn't affectionate towards me. We hardly ever kiss. He won't hold my hand in public, he pulls away. I feel ashamed. I'm a fairly attractive woman. All this started after I moved in with him, and for the past 7 years. I'm only 24. He is 28.

When we have sex, he says he can't hold it in. It seems like sex is mostly for him. NOw, I don't like him kissing me (if he tries) I give mercy sex and just lay there. I physically do not want him. I don't find him attractive anymore.

I've told him over and over how I feel. But no change. He did this before we had our daughter. I'm at a loss.

Before we had our daughter I had to beg for sex. He would rather use his hand. Tho he tells me different, his actions say otherwise.

Most PEOPLE masturbate if you can trust one of the myriad of studies that have been done on the subject. So, in that aspect your H is pretty normal.

Porn use gets tied up in morals and ethics, and frankly, I don't know what to say to you about what is right for you. If it bothers you then tell him so.

If your H is choosing porn and masturbation over having sex with you, and you consistently and freely make yourself availble to him for SF, if you often instigate SF and he rejects you to go spank the monkey, then I see that as a problem. If he is doing it without rejecting your need of SF, I would have less of a problem . . but that is ME . . . I don't expect you to feel the same way about the issue.

7yrs,

Your situation is different.

Your H is choosing self-gratification over SF with you: that is a problem and it needs to be addressed.

Why do you think he acts this way? Do you love bust him a lot? Maybe he doesn't feel emotionally invested in you . . .

I do think that you both need some help with this. Maybe buy a copy of The Sex Starved Marriage and give it to him.

To me sex is so much more that a physical release . . . I can do that myself in about 5 minutes . . . it really does nothing for my need to feel connected to my wife. I do know when I feel distant from her, when I am upset with the way she is treating me, when I feel that I am the one that always has to initiate sex, I would rather just do it myself and call it a day.

He says hes pretty content with me. I satisfy him sexually. Althought he would like for me to dance for him. But I can't. The way he makes me feel, plus having a kid doesn't make me feel sexy enough to do so. But I think he's making excuses. Because we will have sex one night, and he will be with himself the next morning before work.

I've told him over and over how I feel.

He's not an emotional guy at all. And it drives me nuts because I NEED a lot of emotional support, affection what not. I don't get any kind of support for anything. I've had a very rough past. And now I need a lot of love. I don't feel at all.

It's sooo easy to please him. So I always feel like I am asking too much. Tho he says I'm not.

desperatelytrying...

I would have to say without more info I don't think people can make any conclusion to this...

how are things between the two of you>....

are there issues there....

how is the intimacy factor between the two you..

people knee jerk masturbation too much in my opinion...

though as comfortablynumb pointed out it can be layered with morals and religious ties...

I'm not convinced that masturbation isn't a private matter..
I'm not convinced that is any of a spouses business necessarily if there is no EFFECTS from it in the marriage..

sorry but everyone fantasizes about things...all brains are wired that way...chemical and electrical impulses...

women have big connections to what they perceive as romantic moments ...usually viewed in movies which get in our brains as romantic/sexy.....
ie Rhett butler grabbing Scarlet and kissing her...
etc...

men are often more visually direct..
BUT
both are fantasy's...and part of a man's womans make up...


you really haven't identified what the issue is...and if there is no trickle down effect...you may want to rethink making him feel embarrassed.....
or that he is 'bad'
or needs punished....

NOT saying you do these things...
but I would not want my husband to feel embarrassed....
about this issue...for I don't think that will serve you well in the long..

so until there is more information about what it is that is bothering...
I will reserve my opinion...

ARK

Sexual Exclusivity I would think includes only having SF when with your partner uner normal circumstances. SF while in the same house as your partner seems like a problem to me.

Techie - gimme a break - 3 times a day to wear him out. The problem doesn't appear to be physical to me at least.

"3 times a day" was an example, IF he wanted it that much. it doesnt sound like he does though. But that's not the point. D.T. needs to just make sure she is completely fulfulling his needs at the hormonal level. Dealing with the addiction component is different. but he wont be able to deal with the addiction part well, until his hormonal part is satiated.



I had a problem with porn early in my marriage. I am intimately familiar with what drives the "addiction" type usage, and also what is needed to get over it. After a long time, I "got over it".

It can indeed be an "addiction", in the clinical sense. It's like alchoholism, in that it seems harmless, but can build up side effects, and damage your relationship with those you care about. It's also dang hard to quit, if you've built up usage patterns around it. There may be repeated "backsliding". If you're hooked, there is no-one external to you that can make you quit: YOU have to want to quit. There is an extended withdrawal period, that unfortunately can be much longer than alchoholism withdrawal. And, like alchoholism, it is something that can be "just one click away", for the rest of your life.

I "got over it". But I still have to remind myself on a regular basis, not to go down that road again.
(the good news is; My "habits" are now set to mostly avoid triggers, so I dont have to remind myself that often any more)

SO, D.T... please pay heed to what I have posted to you. My wife desperately wanted me to quit. I tried a few times, and went back to it, after varying lengths of time. it was only years later that I managed to fully kick the habit. If she had followed the advice I gave you; I believe I would have been able to quit within a few months, and make it stick.

(there were times that I really wanted to... but I needed her support to do so, and for varying reasons, she couldnt give it to me. )

A great site to help one get over the sex addiction of porn:

recoverynation.com

BUT - it takes a paradigm shift to desire to get past the porn dragon. Do a LOT of talking -and gently let him know how much it hurts you. It may take a while.

Read His Needs Her Needs, and figure out how to occupy each other's time.

Techie - good response IMHO.

far

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Like I said in my comment, if one partner has an issue with it, then yes it is something that needs to be worked out. The problem appears in the fact that most women seem to automatically view it as bad (porn and/or masturbation) due to moral issues in society as a whole, which takes something that is in no way meant as an affront to a spouse and turns it into a taboo. 'Virtual infidelity?' That's just plain ridiculous. If it bothers her, then she needs to understand why, though if she considers it to be infidelity, then there is some sort of moral issue that needs to be resolved, IMHO.

Also, reading over the Independent Behavior section of the Q&A - nowhere does it mention 'porn' or as being representative of that LB. Yes, it very well might be a LB in any given relationship, but that does not mean that it is automatically considered one. All relationships are not considered equal. Along the same lines, it does not automatically violate POJA.

Now, in this particular situation, it does. I am not going to tell her that it is 'right' or 'wrong' for her to feel the way she does, however that does not change the fact that she does, indeed, feel that way. Therefore, her husband should work with her to curb his masturbation and his use of porn. However, she needs to be willing to help him meet his sexual needs. SHE could always be his porn. Maybe she should masturbate with him sometime.

JMHO

TheRogueX, I 100% agree with DLK21’s statement above.

Sex, through fantasy with someone else, through lust over pornographic images, through an emotional affair, or through a physical affair is Adultery (Marital Unfaithfulness). Upon marriage each spouse promises, among other things, to keep themselves exclusively to each other for all issues related to sex. "Forsaking ALL others" does not limit the exclusion to just physical sex with another live person.
- ForeverHers

Although sexual desire is a basic human desire, there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to release this desire… And having sexual fantasies of other men/women (other than the marriage partner), whether these fantasies/sexual encounters take place in the mind with the help of pornography/masturbating or not, is wrong, sinful and inappropriate… Here is why:

Matthew 5:27 – 30:

Quote:

Quote

"You have heard that the law of Moses says, `Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye-even if it is your good eye*-causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into h e l l. 30 And if your hand-even if it is your stronger hand*-causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into h e l l.

When Jesus said ”anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart”, he was referring to ANY woman (whether the woman is ‘alive’ and/or on the internet/magazine/video etc.). The fact is, porn women on the internet/magazines/video etc. are real people who exist – they are just reduced to ‘sex objects’, but the fact is, they ARE real people. So, whether a man commits adultery in the mind with a ‘live’ or internet/magazine/video woman, it is still the same and adultery in the eyes of Jesus… If a man looks at a porn woman lustfully and imagine/fantasize about sexual encounters with her in his mind, he IS “longing for what is forbidden” and is committing adultery in the mind and therefore an adulterer in the eyes of Jesus. There are no justifications and rationalizations around this. Of course the same applies to women - women who are looking at other men lustfully and/or having fantasies of them and longing for what is forbidden is committing adultery in the mind/heart and towards their husbands too.

TheRogueX, you’ve posted:

This is true. However, the fact that men are visual and get aroused by visual images, aren’t an excuse/rationlization/justification for them to deliberately and inappropriately act or dwell on that arousal, lusting over pornographic images of other women, practice ‘mental adultery’ (sexual encounters/fantasies with other women in his mind) and do other things to reduce women to ‘sex objects’. The following paragraph from the book ”The Purpose Driven Life” (written by a Christian man) will make this more clear. Especially pay attention to the parts in bold:

[color:"blue"] It is not a sin to be tempted. Jesus was tempted, yet he never sinned. Temptation only becomes a sin when you give in to it. Martin Luther said, “You cannot keep birds from flying over your head but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair.” You can’t keep the Devil from suggesting thoughts, but you can choose not to dwell or act on them.

For example, many people don’t know the difference between physical attraction or sexual arousal, and lust. They are not the same. God made every one of us a sexual being, and that is good. Attraction and arousal are the natural, spontaneous, God-given responses to physical beauty, while lust is a deliberate act of the will. Lust is a choice to commit in your mind what you’d like to do with your body. You can be attracted or even aroused without choosing to sin by lusting. Many people, especially Christian men, feel guilty that their God-given hormones are working. When they automatically notice an attractive woman, they assume it is lust and feel ashamed and condemned. But attraction is not lust until you begin to dwell on it.[/color]

Ah. Well, I'm not religious. I'm not Christian. I disagree with many Christian viewpoints on sexuality, and especially on 'sin.' I don't believe in ******, demons, or 'the Devil,' so it's hard for me to understand or rationalize what you said.

So, pretty much, by quoting the Bible, you are yet another person that I will have to simply agree to disagree with, because we will never find a common ground.

There seem to be many, many Christians here, so I will just keep my opinions on this subject silent.

FYI, not all Christians subscribe to the views of Suzet*, ForeverHers and the like.

They have very strong opinions on these matters because of their literal
interpretation of the Bible, but really, not every Christian thinks like that.

What always disturbs me about these posters is their absolute sense of "being right" and their way of believing is the only way a "True Christian" can believe.

JMHO,

LB

TheRogueX, just for the record, one doesn't have to be a Christian to know right from wrong and to know that unfaithfulness in the thoughts towards one’s marriage partner (in whatever way) is wrong and offensive towards the marriage partner... And as far as I know, every person who gets married (not just Christians) promises to “Forsake all others” and thereby promises to keep him/herself exclusively to each other for all issues related to sex. Read the following again:

”Sex, through fantasy with someone else, through lust over pornographic images, through an emotional affair, or through a physical affair is Adultery (Marital Unfaithfulness). Upon marriage each spouse promises, among other things, to keep themselves exclusively to each other for all issues related to sex. "Forsaking ALL others" does not limit the exclusion to just physical sex with another live person.”

The above works spoken by each spouse and promises made by them upon marriage are not just applicable on Christians and Christian marriages.

LoveBuster, actually I think there are many other Christians out there who will agree with my view on pornography, ‘mental’ adultery etc. And I can’t see how my interpretation on this is literal at all. But since you’ve said that, please tell me how you interpret the following verse:

“But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:28)

LoveBuster, by saying all this, I admit (and I’ve admitted it towards these boards many times before) that I was guilty of adultery in the heart/mind towards my H myself…I was guilty of this every time I had adulterous thoughts and fantasies of XOM...even after the EA ended. And to be honest, there are still times I have the temptation to 'dwell' on certain thoughts. I feel ashamed to admit that the tendency to have these thoughts is not completely gone yet…especially not after the resumption of the EA more than 2 months ago when much of those thoughts have returned. Therefore, I still have to fight the temptation to dwell on certain thoughts...and I fight it because I know such thoughts is wrong, sinful and offensive towards my H and God... And I belief that - even if I was not a Christian who believes in the Bible - the 'law' of right and wrong was still written on my heart and conscience and I believe I would feel equally guilty about my 'mental' adultery even if I was not a Christian...