Release of dopamine and other endorphins is what happens during a sexual arousal.....can last for months and is enhanced by secrecy. IT IS A CHEMICAL DEPENDENCE!!!

Really... well explain the "addiction" to the many BS here that have partners that had one night stands. Where does the addiction thoughts fit into those acts?
And I will not get into the science of things with you... but what you described with the release of dopamine is not an addiction.

I do not agree with this at all! My FWH said all of those things right up until he broke it off with OW for good and told me he was ready to move home. I need to find the post so you can read it AmI but the day after I gave FWH my plan B letter he still said all of those very things. I allowed him to draw me into another dead end conversation with him spewing all of the same WS speak. He was practically begging me to "let him go". He wanted me to make it easier on him, I absolutely refused. Flat out told him that if he wanted a divorce then he would have to go file, I was not in the business of making his decisions for him so he could carry on his A.

Not even a week later he broke it off with OW and wrote me a 3 page letter.

AmI, I am going to try to find some of my old posts. When my FWH was really starting to try to end the A on his own he started saying all of those same things, over and over again. The OW is like a drug, they do want to stop but they don't know how and they don't think it's possible. So it is easier in their minds if you just make the decision for him. If he really wanted to make the decision he would have done it by now.

Him telling you too much has happened is all par for the course. They really do believe that while they are foggy. He thinks that if you had done the same things to him it would be too much. Like Mimi said, keep repeating your mantra.

Hang in there. I am going to try to find those posts now.

InADaze...Thank you for sharing that information!

AmI- just sticking my nose in...I'm reading everything...I hear alot of good solid advice...I just wanted to let you know I miss you and I hope you are having a good day!

I hope thatyour heart is lighter today. (((((((((AmI)))))))

I am not really sure how to interpret some of what he said, it seems like there are valid points all the way around.

I do think that part of his "too much has happened and is happening" thing is about the exposure letters to his work and me not letting him move into the rental house. Because by not providing him with a house to conduct his affair in, I'm evil and persecuting him, don't you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He told me once that I was the one being cruel for going after his career, his sanity, and his entire crew (in the letter, I brought up the schedule that they work and said that it seems perfectly designed to tear a family apart). That was in response to me asking him how he could justify being so cruel by breaking into the room in the middle of the night, and flaunting his affair in my face.

Anyway, I do think he's deep in something .... fog seems like too nice of a word for it. So I'm not trying too hard to figure out what all he meant. I mostly feel good for having been able to get the words out myself, without fighting or attacking or getting ugly.

-AmI.

Ok, LA …. I need some help walking through this one.

You felt rejection because you believe he IS rejecting you, replacing you...OUCH...doesn't go anywhere near the rabbit hole idea, does it?

Hmmmmm ...... I guess I didn’t have the rabbit hole theory figured out quite right. I was mixing it up with letting go of the response ....... I can let go of the response (or lack thereof) if I think of him just disappearing into Alice’s rabbit hole.

But that’s not what the picture really means, right? ....... I need to relate it to the fact that he is leaving at all ......... ?

That leaving is his ....... disappearing down the rabbit hole, his choice and not about me. I think I get that, but I guess that doesn’t feel any less rejecting. I can’t quite put that together. The disconnect for me is that choosing the drug, the fantasy, the rabbit hole ...... still means he’s choosing those things over me, over our marriage and our family.

You might have to get super basic with me here ......... I feel like there’s something really simple that I’m missing.


the rejection, inconsideration and callousness hurt is coming from making it about you...

I think that’s the piece that isn’t quite clicking for me. How do I not make it about me ........ I can see that the leaving is his choice, his to own, and not my responsibility. But I don’t get how to make it not have an impact on me. He could choose to run me over in his truck, too ...... his choice, but it would absolutely hurt me, impact me ........ and that impact is about me, right?

Ugh ....... I can’t get this picture right. Help me clarify a little bit here, please.


see your payoff in seeing and feeling this as about you...?

The payoff ....... not sure, maybe feeling like I have more cause, control & cure power than I really do? That if it’s about me, then I might be able to fix it or prevent it or do something?


But if you justify your action to file for divorce, tell him off...argue or attempt to change him because of the pain you experience from seeing this as about you...wouldn't that be the same thing he is doing?

Justification, yes. It would be the same thing he is doing. This is a piece that I need to process some. Not sure how to tell the difference between justifying and knowing the reasons for making right choices.


...until I found my part, my payoff (justification for choices...when you have NO REASON to justify...your choices are sound, they are yours), then I stopped seeing and feeling rejected, not considered (this was huge) and the DJ that WH was callous...when he was far from it...and I stopped having my own justifications, so I stopped battling his.

Ok, this is where I fell completely out of the picture. I’m sorry, I just don’t get this. Another place I need you to get super basic with me, please. I think that this says that feeling hurt and rejected, etc. gives me permission – justification – to also behave badly or make bad choices? Because he rejected me, so I have a reason to fight against him, now?

But that’s backwards from what you wrote ...... you said stop justifying, and then stop feeling rejected and not considered. So I think I’ve totally missed the boat on this one.




You could have the same depth of love for your partner and be amazed, stunned, incredulous...not rejected, run over or ignored...if you saw him making these choices for no real reason...and that's exactly what he's doing...there is no reason big enough to do this to your spouse...there isn't. Takes justification...which isn't real, doesn't it?

I think the fact that there is no real reason is what bothers me the most. Running me over for no real reason is a lot more cruel and painful than running me over because you didn’t see me, or because you had to get a kid to a hospital, or because I was threatening or harming someone in some way. But for no real reason .......... that kills me.


Are you doing this to teach yourself he isn't who you thought he was? That you built your love for H on actions and words?

I don’t think so, but maybe? Would that be justification for feeling rejected, etc.? Justification for wanting to stop loving him ...........?


This concept just has my brain in knots. Take me back to kindergarten mode on this, please. It feels like something important, right at the tip of my tongue, that I’m just not getting. It’s trying to click, though.

Thank you.

-AmI.

MEDC-

Yes, what he described IS the basis of that addiction. People get addicted to the feelings created by the release of those endorphins. And these are the same endorphins released by the brain during the use of any of the 'psychologically addictive' drugs. And THESE drugs are usually the ones considered the most difficult to get clean from.

As far as the ONS scenario...I'd agree, that this isn't an addiction. One time doesn't make an addiction. BUT...if this WS has multiple ONS's, then it's the same concept...its an SA, based off the same dependencies we already talked about.

Make sense?

Mk you said:



The way that you describe the wayward as SELFISH AND UNCARING is the same as how an addict is described. The behaviors are the same. That's why the concept is sooo helpful. Yes, the WS is uncaring and all of those things because all the wayward cares about is getting that next FIX...So, yes, the wayward is manipulative, conniving, deceitful and all of those things, now using human brainpower to make sure the DRUG SUPPLY from the OP is maintained.

I don't know what causes the ADDICTION but I personally saw it being played out as others here have described. My H looked CRAZY, described himself as being CRAZY and even when he wanted to break away from HER..could not....without my help there in the end.

Feeling out of control, the wayward says STUFF like yours does, AM... "TOO MUCH HAS HAPPENED AND IS HAPPENING HERE". My H used the exact same line. It's our job as the BS to maintain and to work on our SANITY in order to be that LIGHTHOUSE... ..to be able to say "WE CAN DO THIS"...... "IT IS POSSIBLE"... ..others have done it..." I KNOW A MAN CALLED STEVE HARLEY WHO CAN HELP US WITH THIS"

Here's my biggest problem with Plan B.

I am likely going to have to file to either
1) get into Plan B and get him out of the house or
2) if he moves on his own, then to protect my relationship with the kids.

So I'm going to have to file pretty quickly, either way. And that isn't ideal for Plan B.

I talked to my lawyer briefly about LSA instead of D papers, and she doesn't like that idea. But she's not in the business of saving marriages, either .... so she's going to go over the real differences of them with me when we meet to go over the final paperwork. She said it should be tomorrow, since I was able to get some of the last information to her today.

Tomorrow are the calls to Steve. I am very anxious to find out how those go.

-AmI.

Yes, this is part of the reality bringing strategy that SH has me trying. Always bringing reality, and always coloring it with "we can have better...."

I'm trying, I really am. Getting alittle better at it every time, I think. That's why I post all these interactions here and appreciate all the comments I can get on them -- even when they don't all agree. And even when Noodle -- correctly -- tells me I'm being pathetic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(Noodle, I sent a copy of your post to my sister, and she got all indignant for me. But I honestly appreciated your comments and thought they were right on.)

Thanks!!
-AmI.

Look, if it helps you guys to look at your WS as addicts... that is okay with me. As I have said numerous times, I get the comparison.. I just don't agree with it. I personally think it is just a way for WS and BS to try and understand when someone is acting like a hoe. I feel bad for alcoholics and drug addicts... I do not extend that sympathy to WS in any way. I see their actions as a total choice to continue what they are doing...it's just my opinion...you are also entitled to your opinions on things. Thanks for sharing.

Ami:

I'll share my experience.

I filed for LS during PLAN B in order to legally protect myself and our children. However, I definitely was not planning on seeking a divorce.

I eventually had to find a lawyer who wrote the separation agreement up exactly as I wanted it. My H came to her office and signed it..a very sad day for me, I must say....

The first lawyer that I consulted tried to rip me/us off, encouraging me to file for D, wanting to sue for a percentage of our assets, wanting to charge me an enormous fee. I felt he was trying to take advantage of me and I am so grateful that I did not go along with what he recommended. I would be a divorced woman today.

mimi- where these your step children or your children?

AmI may not have a choice in the matter...so are you saying that you can file for D and just not follow through with it...

That's interesting...we have a new law that just passed here...no LS at all, but you have to wait a year to finalize the D, it was 6 months...

I don't know very much about D's at all...

AmI,

I work really hard at being cryptic...I live for it. Okay. Basic stuff.

Your WH is a drug addict. He is escaping his stuff...stress, pain, fear, etc...through a narcotic means to relieve him of those things temporarily by covering them up.

How do you make his drug use about you unless you want to be the cover up? The control? The cure? And YES...if only it were, you COULD be the cure...and make this all stop.

What I'm asking for is temporary loving detachment...meaning you do not detach from your choice to love, you detach from your urge to fix, change or control.

To STOP the comparisons in your own head right now...the belief giving you severe pain that you weren't enough, or you did something to cause him to do this...when you didn't. To really know this isn't about you...his choice about him, his stuff, his fog, his justifications (which ARE the fog)...and to dwell on his stuff will create a fog in you...it's circular thinking...crazymaking...

His real reason is inside him...do not MAKE yourself the reason...his coping skills he learned early on, instead of living skills. I have been very serious about how you have viewed his first wife, bio-mom...how much you were swept into his viewpoint, his recount of their history, his victimhood...you a savior to the kids and to him, poor wounded man...so you can truly see balance. WH can fully shut out others...and I bet he did that to his first wife, too...not about her...about HIS fear...which looms large, is harsh and cutting...a lot of pain inside his own head...and he runs...withdraws...shuts out...creates...goes into the rabbit hole.

You're experiencing something you did not allow yourself to believe possible...look at WHY you believed that way...because no matter how bad bio mom was...she was only half the marriage. He was half.

Same then, as now. This important lesson, how you view the world, people and your important part in it...can be your focus now...not him...your thoughts are obsessive, and I remember that well, felt like FEEDING myself...stuffing me full where that unending empty ache was...and it wasn't feeding me anything of substance...all imagination...just like WH.

You are both humans...humans do damage...no blame there...seeing what's real is what you want. Honestly, every FWS will be honest and tell you...it wasn't about their BS at all...they used the BS, their history, and imagined insults (intolerable!), neglect (HUGE), anything they could dredge up (faithful...okay, NOT that)...to justify getting the drug which makes the world go away...and just like a drug, the more it's used, the less potent it is...because the pain, fear, anger, resentment, entitlement, lack of respect they have for THEMSELVES persists...wasn't really gone...just covered up...hidden for awhile...fantasy.

Breathe more and stop wrestling your shoulds...to get to your "is"...Know what you believe, buy into only your own stuff...you cannot be the cause, cure or control of anyone else on earth...not in God's design. You have influence...he isn't allowing that influence right (then how could he possibly justify his actions?)...and have faith, AmI...use this for that faith you've gotten previously through proof, evidence and judgment...and leap. Have faith that this is how humans learn...it takes what it takes...and growing is glorious, even when it feel annihilating...that here is good stuff in everything...and the more you stop questioning why you deserve this (has NOTHING to do with deserving)...you'll feel loving detachment for your family...YOUR family...not about you, really.

And that hurts. Not about you because it's about HIM...not about you because there's something wrong you did...

Could it be this isn't clicking for you because of fear? If you have no consequence, no significance...no INFLUENCE on someone else...then it's your fault? We only allow others' influence...we have NO power if not allowed to influence others...if God put this in, then that would crush our choice...and our choice is invoilate. Can't get it off your own fingers no matter what you do...

Have you depended greatly on your influence for good? Have you felt much love in your life believing you influenced others...that you didn't see them allowing your influence in? Hey, you have teenagers and small children, surely that occurred to you?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Scary to realize we live without nets...in the right now...only in the right now...no earning, deserving, doing to be someone who is safe...and it's okay to fear, just don't believe from it...your fear proves nothing but that you love and care for yourself and you are human. You are enough for you...find all the ways, embrace them...acknowledge and keep your focus off of him, 'k?

Live to your standards...speak your truth...reap joy where there was fear; choose where there was earning; and live freely, in love and responsibility.

Not being so powerful (cause, cure) doesn't mean you are not significant. You are. Until you let go the false power, you won't really get to your real, ever present power...which is authentically charged...so much more than I could have imagined. Human being, not doing.

Speak of your being, right now...tell yourself, too...you are. You're just not the cause or the cure. Feel the relief, embrace your human limits (we all are) and be right now, right here, with us.

Know your power in choosing your perception...do not EXPECT rejection...and you will see it half as often. Try it for a day. Your WH is neither rejecting nor accepting you...this is him rejecting himself...bring that reality..."I know this isn't about me. I know you are doing this and it's about you."

Listen and repeat with choice...hopper on your head...love in your heart for YOU, the kids, your real H...alien abduction isn't pretty...and it ISN'T about you...are you THAT powerful? You got connections with other planets, hmmm?

If you choose to believe you only exist as a reflection from others...then you won't be able to grasp this separateness...you are...reflected or not...you are.

You're dazzlingly human, AmI...you really are. Is that clearer now?

LA

In my state, you have to be legally separated for a year in order to file for a divorce but lawyers use the DIVORCE wording in the LSA paperwork. I wanted that left out, making it clear that it was ONLY a Legal Separation Agreement.

When I was doing this, my H was SOOOO "IN LOVE" with the OW that he was just wanting to be rid of me and probably would have gladly agreed to a divorce IF I DID IT....

So I guess it's different state by state...

But I was thinking that if she had a choice in the matter it's best to make it clear to the WS that her legal steps are for her legal PROTECTION and NOT BECAUSE SHE IS WANTING TO END THE MARRIAGE....

Plus, the OW can use this filing for D to stress to the WS.."You see, she doesn't love you like I do".

Well, that was the case in my situation. That was one of the OW's main selling points that she would use..that she "LOVED HIM MORE AND BETTER"...She was counting on me TO GIVE UP and I maintained the message that I would not...but I would not be involved with him as long as he was with her...

AmI,

I looked around and tried to find some posts that were somewhat similar to your WH's fogspeak. I will also attach the links to my two main threads if you would like to read through them.

Here is the post from the day after I gave FWH my plan B letter.


I wish I had gone into more detail about what he said that day. So much of it was exactly what your WH is telling you. My FWH must have said the line about "too much has happened" a million times.

As much as he went on and on about wanting a divorce, loving OW, too much has happend, etc. I was extremely shocked that it only took a week for my plan B to work.

I really wish you didn't have to file a D. I understand why you have to and I know we all support you but I'm afraid that it will give your WH the ok he is so desperately wanting to hear. I'm also afraid he will see it as you giving up or not really loving him.

Oh, AmI, I empathize so much with you. I know we all do. I know we all wish we could be there holding your hand and comforting you as you go through this.


Here are the links to my threads pre-recovery.

What Did I Just Do?????

I'm Freaking Out!!!!

Thanks, mimi! I understand the concept much better now especially the part about OW using that to her advantage.

LA-I would like to thank you for that very clear post. I understand the concept a few days ago, it clicked, but that helped so much more, especially with the questions I have been asking lately. I can also put into perceptive my ONS better.

Wow, have I said recently how much I appreciate everyone here???

Lots to read and process .... so much good information. You all are lifesavers. Thank you.

Quick update while I'm working on processing all of this ....


WH grounded DS from video games for a week this afternoon .... so after WH left for work, DS kicked a hole in the wall. Not pretty.... DS says he thinks he has "anger issues". :::::: fun with teenagers!

Tomorrow is the big day ... calls with SH, legal paperwork should be done .... and my boss is in town. Perfect timing, just when I need a super-flexible schedule day....

But, he did approve me for working half-days from our Denver office next week. I want to go to my class here on Wednesday night, so I think I'll go over there Thursday and Friday, then spend the weekend with my sister. I told WH that I was going over there those two days, and his solution for what to do with the kids is to vacation those two days. I thought that was kind of funny, I wonder how much vacation time he's planning on taking when he moves himself and the kids out, and won't let them spend nights here with me anymore .... ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But even more funny .... I'm pretty sure that WH has been sleeping in my bed during the day when I'm not here. I knew he did last Sunday -- took a nap in there -- and then I've kind of been wondering since then ... but tonight when I got home, the extra pillow on his side was still on the floor (I like to sleep with lots of them, he only likes one), his side of the bed wasn't messed up, but it wasn't really made the way I make it, either ... and his side of the bed sheet was un-tucked at the bottom (he doesn't like tucked-in sheets because his legs are so long that they restrict his feet). Is that kind of strange??? I don't think he had "company" in the bed ... I had a few things laying on my side that didn't look messed with (a book I'm reading, a notebook and some documents, pens and highlighters from work ... my watch and bracelet that I forgot to put on this morning .... nothing major, but enough that it would have to be moved if there was any activity going on in there....) It's just really odd to me. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, I guess.

Just weird.

-AmI.

AmI, AmI...you are dealing with WH...he is cake eating...just like you smelled him...he's smelling you...How comfortable is that couch anyway? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Seems to me like that's the only way he has right now of being close to you...fool...he didn't have to have it this way... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have great empathy for you...I found this site after D-day...until then I was trying to break up the A on my own...Your Taco Bell day reminded me of my Burger King day...thing is H told me he was going to lunch with her...I was so mad...

There were many days when I was mad...felt helpless...

What I'm trying to say is that was not so long ago...so whatever you do, please don't give up hope...you have some wonderful people giving you great advice...people who have make it through and believe in YOU just like I do...

Since I can't hold your hand and give you a hug when you need it, I guess this will have to do...I have great compassion for YOU and the faith to know that YOU are going to be okay. YOU have nothing to be ashamed of...YOU are fighting a heroic fight...I'm sure you will triumphy!

:::Bowing::: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Have a wonderful night and a fabulous tomorrow! Tomorrow's a new day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I hear ya Rin'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ami, listen up hon..... me thinks you ought to put laundry or a bunch of something on that bed of yours during the day. No reason why the WS gotta feel comfortable while he is giving you pain. You think that will drive him away?

Here's an eye opener..... you should WANT to drive the WS away. It's your H you want back right? So don't make life pleasant for the WS.

Maybe not an MB thingy but I hate it when the a BS feels they gotta make life pleasant for a WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> YUCK!!!

L.