MEDC --

I always really appreciate your opinion. I think you have a lot in common with my H (the real one, I'm not implying that you have W traits), and therefore have a special perspective that I really value. I sometimes think you are able to get right into his mind and see straight through him.


"How long are you supposed to live with the knowledge that your H is off screwing around? How much can you really take?"

I talked to SH about this. He asked me how much more I can take, and whether or not I can hang on. He said that I need to watch for the point where I start to not care, and disconnect. Then we'll figure out how to go into Plan B.


"I find that SH's advice is enabling your H to continue his A and that your marriage is never going to be given a chance as long as your H is allowed to sit on the fence while living in the same house with you."

I wish I could post a whole transcript of our session, because I miss some important things when I try to summarize for a post.

This is what we were talking about when SH said that once things get adversarial, then WH will fight just to fight. It was kind of picking between the lesser of two evils ... allow some fence-sitting and cake eating, in the hope that there can be a little more chance to get a little more of the important basic messages across ..... or jump in to battle. The route that we chose for now is to try to keep getting a message out there, while at the same time, preparing me for the big battle.


"....this situation is not going to get any better until such a time as your H is forced to make some changes."

I agree. The thing that makes this difficult is that once I go to the mats on this, it is going to be an all-out war. I won't be able to just peacefully Plan B, and let him see what life is like without me .... I will have to be waging an all-out war to protect my relationship with the kids. And that is just going to make WH dig his heels in and be stubborn. Anything, any message, that he gets from anyone, anywhere, that is anything other than to take me down .... will be violently trashed. Not just dismissed, but he'll do everything he can to do the complete opposite.

So we're trying to get some of those ideas at least planted before going to that point.


I'm not anywhere near ready for war. The thought of plotting against my husband, taking away some of his time with the kids, trying to get the best financial deal possible .... it all makes me so sick. I need to get to a point where I don't care so much about him before I'm ready for that. And if things keep going as they are, it won't be long to get there. But I am really, really not ready to do that yet.

I do feel like I can continue a guarded plan A for a little longer. Bringing up truth, and continually repeat the message that it's worth it to have a fabulous marriage, and it's possible, and it would be the best thing for our entire family. The idea is to get those thoughts planted and taking root before starting the assault.

Does that context help this plan seem any less bonkers (I love that word) to you? I asked my WH last Wednesday what he'd advise me to do if I was his sister .... I'll ask you the same question .....? I know that you've been in favor of me filing for a while now, and I can absolutely see where that is coming from .... I was right there, too, even got the papers ready to go. It's when I think about the war that that will start, and the fact that doing that to my husband feels like much more of a betrayal than anything he's done to me .... that stops me cold and turns my stomach. So if I was your sister, what would you advise me do with that?

I really do value your insight and would like to hear it, regardless of whether you agree with SH (or me or anyone else) or not. I'm not trying to argue, I really do want to dig deeper on your thoughts about this. I think with your perspective, you might have an angle that is not so easy to see for some of us.

Thanks!
-AmI.

If I were your brother, I would ask you to decide what you want in life. If the answer was "my H back"... I would advise you to do everything in your power to end his A and shake him from his doldrums. I would advise my sister that I think the man will continue to mistreat his family until he sees that he is on the brink of losing everything. I would advocate a strong plan B... but since he has made that impossible, I would suggest filing for divorce and hope that would stir him to act in a more responsible way. I would also say that if the threat of losing his family is not enough to stir him... perhaps he is not worth keeping.

I would ask you to keep your wants and needs in play here. I would let you know that you have NOTHING to feel guilty about and that your H can manipulate all he wants to but you have truth on your side. The fact that you are not ready for the "war" yet needs to be taken into consideration and applied to your sitch. But I ask you... if you are not far from there and he is refusing to let you Plan B... what is going to allow you to stop him from continuing to erode your love for him? In my way of thinking... at least there is a chance that he will come around. I do not see that happening without something dramatic here. He needs a wake up call... NOW... IMHO. If things go much further, they will ceratinly be broken beyond repair.
And as far as my being like your real H... thank you... I see a great compliment in there. And know that your real H would tell you that you are worth so much more than this... that you are a beautiful and valuable person that deserves nothing but the best in life... and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
And if I was your brother.... trust me... this would have gone to the mats or the "fishes" a long time ago!!!!
Be well friend.

AmI,

I wrestled with the invite...my DH was on vacation all week...through tomorrow, actually, so there was that in my head...and my penchant for just snatching up people before my marriage. I'm working on the house, though, so that another trip, you'll have the rocky mountain guest room, 'k?

That's after I get Rin up here to help DH do the windowseat in our master bedroom.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You ran the Run for the Cure? Or you watched?

(Ayup...Federal...very good!)

Would you like to unearth and purge that old resentment? To free yourself?

About the shoulds...not you together "should'ves" the shoulds from your childhood and early 20's...what money symbolizes in a marriage, about it being shared equally, or with care weighted one way or the other...I got you believe debt is really bad...and you knew your DH was in debt before you married, I believe...and maybe you thought the evil xWW did all that...like he shouldn't have had to bear it...or you had to dig him out to save him...I dunno...you tell me those shoulds...because you know them, intimately...and you NAILED the parental fiscal view very well. Kudos!! I bet you find many ways you did this...and again, no blame...I bet your WH presented himself many times as a supplicant, a child's point of view, asking for help...you didn't know he resented you for it, did you?

Can you see the huge control factor in you about shouldering what wasn't respectful of you in order for WH to NOT shoulder it? We learn our consequences to our choices...to us, our own; we learn marital consequences to marital choices...and those choices and consequences out of our hands...all to benefit our lives. This is learning. You have a lot of uncovering to do, AmI...because CA's (excuse me, rehab'd CA's) could only really CA by lying to themselves, too...very sneaky control artists...and uncovering gives you a boost of honesty, clarity and clear intent...like clear water...really nourishing and freeing.

I don't advise letting go old resentments...what worked great for me was doing the timeline and seeing where I chose, and why, to learn how NOT to recreate present resentment...and don't have to let it go...when I got my choice, my false payoffs, resentment went. Totally.

A better way to do the income stuff...well, total together what you both earn, then take your net against the whole and you'll have a percentage...and his against the whole as a percentage (and they would then equal 100%)...total your regular monthly bills and then split the total by the percentages and take them against each of your net incomes...make sure you take the CS and split it 50/50 and add it into each of your incomes...which will leave you your share of the extra and his share...I would split the CS because you are both contributing the care of the children...however, you can fine to that...heck, you work at a bank.

Heehee. This is how my DH and I do it now...and I pay him his portion and keep mine in my own account (somewhat)...so I can respect him, his private credit card, whatever else he does, and it's his...voila! Nothing to shoulder for me. And guess what? When he buys me dinner, or a little something...it holds three times the love deposits because it comes from his stuff...even monetarily!

My "should" was that we were one, which meant my money was his and vice versa...always POJAing the money...until we didn't...until it became a tool to hurt and injure us both...him spending, me hoarding, which meant me actually hoarding resentment in equal quantities....aye-yi-yi-yah.

Anyway...getting balance in the finances is part of the reality bringer...and it brought it to both of us!! LOL

I do believe that secretly you've ached for equality and balance...I believe we all do...and resentment seemed to balance the scales somehow, false control, other false payoffs...you can do this...find your balance...where your share is your income share...all your net...half of the marriage, and take your percentage of the bills, not particular bills...unity split by percentages...sharing...and literally hand WH his portion after bills...once a month...which is gonna hurt like a banshee while he's in his A...I remember...hurt like heckfire...had to do the right thing because it was the right thing...and I'm grateful I did. It was another hidden fear of control in my WH...and getting it balanced, not inquiring, knowing or judging him on it was another focus release which gave him the idea I had really, truly changed...not why I did it...I did it to do the right thing. He had to pay for his gas and I had to pay for mine; which helped me to feel better because he was driving to Ft Collins from Denver because of his A...I wasn't paying for the gas!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

See how this can actually help you...as you have stated...you're not going to enable or contribute to his A?

"I was not to go after his career. And I'm ok with that, knowing that his perception there will always be different than mine."

You said "always"...ahem!

"I'm just a little leery, I guess, of starting to feel like I'm totally justified no matter what I do, and he's not, no matter what."

When you feel justification...look for your fear. Reasonable isn't justification...justification is from the tit for tat school...you did so I can do...has permissions in it...that's your clue to which you're doing.

"Like I can do no wrong, becasue I'm the BS, and he can not ever be right, because he's the WS. Sometimes I worry that I'm falling in to that trap, disregarding his feelings and thoughts and reality because they can't possibly be right ... since WS's are never right. I think that would be underestimating him, and realy disrespectful."

I want you to not believe his beliefs, feel his feelings or think his thoughts...disregarding, no; acknowledging, yet. Knowing and not acting on what isn't yours. I think the more you get the CA self-deception figured out, the less you'll worry about you falling into anything...great awareness you are displaying...give yourself a kudo, a backslap and a hug...'k?

Good IC would be great...great self-care. Also, do the resentment timeline...and get it set in your head that emotions aren't bad or good...they are information...accepting them for what they are, knowing they are valid AND temporary (they just deliver the info)...will help you to not stuff now...and slowly excavate all you did...

Stay present " I don't think he's ever going to belive that my intent behind the letters was not to go after his career." That's future, not now...not something you can know...see the "ever"?

Do the right thing...not to be right, but to have done right. There's a big difference. I'm still grasping all of it. It is how we are brave, and you, AmI, are BRAVE. Do not allow your focus to go where it has no control. Learn to pull it in, back on you...and like you said...you'll be amazed at how the pain halves itself...

You're in my thoughts,

LA

Quick responses, still thinking about all the real stuff....


LA --

We were in the Race for the Cure group that mostly walked. They had the competitive runners go first, early in the morning, then our group was just a big mass of people who mostly walked (with some joggers in the lead). That was the group that stretched all the way down Federal, up and around and back to the Pepsi center.

My sisters boyfriend and the son of one of the guys who was with us decided to jog it, and they were near the front of the group. We were about in the middle. They were done and at the Pepsi center before we even got to Mile High. And the road was completely packed with people all the way, it was just a massive sea! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Really very moving! Especially seeing all the survivors and people walking in memory of someone.



MEDC --

"And if I was your brother.... trust me... this would have gone to the mats or the "fishes" a long time ago!!!!"

I know I asked if I could adopt you as a brother not so long ago .... let me know when you want directions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


-AmI.

AmiOk- you might want to read the series of posts I've made to Heartsore - about the book he's reading called 'The Four Agreements'.

It has some application for you as you work on Steve's assignments to you.

That last assignment I gave you was pretty tough - I hadn't heard back from you. Some ten weights are heavier to lift than others...

Can I ask, what did he do to her that got her all h8ll-fired p*ssed off like that? Did he have an A on her, too? Does she blame you for her D? Does he have a history of this? Just looking for some background on him to get a handle on his mindset. Thanks - Dru

"Can I ask, what did he do to her that got her all h8ll-fired p*ssed off like that? Did he have an A on her, too? Does she blame you for her D? Does he have a history of this? Just looking for some background on him to get a handle on his mindset. Thanks - Dru"

XW had the A in their relationship. He and I did not know each other (we had known each other a long time ago, in high school, but not since then) until after she was already re-married and pregnant with another child. So no A on his part, and I was not responsible for their D.

She is just in general a "h8ll-fired p*ssed off" person. They were both very young (17 & 19) when she got pregnant with DS and they got married. She is the one who told me that WH "ruined her life" by getting her pg. Then after their D, she wanted to take the kids and move away but he fought and got 50/50 custody. She kept trying to modify the schedule, increase child suport, etc. and every time she took him to court, the court would rule in WH's favor. She has told me, and I have heard her say on tape, that since she couldn't beat him in court, she would ruin his life and make sure that he could never be a cop again.

It may sound like I've just bought in to WH's version of his marriage, am only seeing one side of it, and am just defending him. But most of it I've seen and heard directly, or she has told me herself. I've seen her fly into a rage, screaming and cursing in court when she gets ruled against, and continue that fury for weeks. She's broken WH's windsheild right after losing a case, filed assault charges against him (we tape all conversations and interactions between them, so he could prove that wasn't true), harassment charges, and after the most recent case, she filed charges saying he was abusing the kids. She even told DS that he had to say it was true or dad would never let him see her again (that's according to DS and DD).

She has the same pattern with other X's, as well. Once or twice a year, we get a call from someone asking for our help in defending themselves against her charges and apologizing for believing all the bad things that she'd said about us.

Kind of a long explanation ... I don't think for a second that WH was a perfect husband or totally blameless in their M. But as far as the level of her hatred towards him, that's just how she operates.

-AmI.

Have you discussed this with your H? How an A during a marriage has already hurt the children? How her A hurt him? How an A is a terrible way to leave a marriage? I think that could be an interesting discussion. Him being betrayed, then becoming the betrayer... just a thought - Dru

MEDC ----------

"...decide what you want in life. If the answer was "my H back"... I would advise you to do everything in your power to end his A and shake him from his doldrums."

Yes, the answer is absolutely I want my H back. I was going for ending his A and shaking him up with the re-exposure.

I have a question for you, related to the "doldrums" ... according to WH, he is still under an IA due to the letters. They still have six more weeks to respond, but told him they think they will be done in two. (This completely infuriates me and blows my mind, btw ... ask for help and instead, they IA him .... I have whole separate rants about that.) The only thing they appear to be worried about is whether he did anything with her on-duty. He said that this IA is a huge dark cloud over him ... so when you used the word "doldrums", it brought me back to that part of the conversation. Do you think that coming out of the IA clean will have any impact on his "doldrums"?

Since they are only investigating whether he did anything on duty, I'm prety sure he'll come up clean. I think they were only talking and flirting on-duty ... the rest of the time, he was just TELLING me he was working.

"I think the man will continue to mistreat his family until he sees that he is on the brink of losing everything."

Maybe this is where I'm decieving myself a little bit, or letting myself be decieved? I think he DOES feel on the brink of losing everything.

Right now I believe he's worried about losing the kids, his lifestyle and financial stability, his career, his home, his freedom (because now he won't have a handy babysitter for the kids), his comfortable life, his future plans, everything.

I think that because those are the things he talks about, and what he is fighting for, trying to cling on to. He said that my plan B letter sounded like I was taking the kids and telling him when he could see them or not. He says he owns two houses, so he's not going to find another one -- even though he's agreed that the right thing to do would be to move out. He fights about the money -- I'm evil and stealing it all. He's definitely worried about his career ....

He's grasping desperately for any last foothold of power over any of those things, but I think he sees it all slipping away fast.

I do think he feels like he's on the brink. Do you think I'm just seeing what I want to see? Being blind?


"I would suggest filing for divorce ...
if the threat of losing his family is not enough to stir him... perhaps he is not worth keeping."

This is hard, because I agree with your logic here, but can't get my heart there. I need something drastic to get into a good plan B, and it appears that filing for D is the only way to get there. But D seems so final and harsh .... like a big metal door slamming closed. It feels like giving up. And I am just not ready for that yet.

"what is going to allow you to stop him from continuing to erode your love for him?"

This is a great question. I don't know. The loving detachment is helping, some. Maybe there needs to be a little more erosion there before I can get to the point of being ready for a war?

"....your real H would tell you that you are worth so much more than this... that you are a beautiful and valuable person that deserves nothing but the best in life... "

Thank you. This made me cry .... you're right, he would have told me this. God, I miss my real H!




LA------------------

"Would you like to unearth and purge that old resentment? To free yourself?"

YES!!! I recognize that it's there. There is probably a lot of it. I've been very, very good at stuffing for a very long time.

"the shoulds from your childhood and early 20's...what money symbolizes in a marriage, about it being shared equally, or with care weighted one way or the other...I got you believe debt is really bad...and you knew your DH was in debt before you married, I believe...and maybe you thought the evil xWW did all that...like he shouldn't have had to bear it...or you had to dig him out to save him...I dunno...you tell me those shoulds...

Yes, I have a hard time with debt. It feels oppressive and burdensome to me. I did know that WH was in debt before we married. We talked about it a lot before we got married, and agreed that we'd work together to get it paid off, and that we didn't want to accumulate any more debt. XW didn't have anything to do with WH's debt ... he ended up with a little bit of debt from their D, but nothing huge. It was bad money management on his part. Collections because he hadn't gotten around to paying bills, mostly. So part of our agreement was that I'd be in charge of making sure that the mechanical part of bill-paying happened ..... checks mailed on time, etc. We worked out how much we could afford to put aside to get the debt paid off as fast as possible, etc. So I expected (maybe this is my should?) that it would keep going that way in the M .... I had this image that we'd sit down and talk about money and have a budget and savings and college accounts for the kids, etc. That's not at all how it turned out. It turned into just me juggling all the bills, and telling WH when we had money or not. We were both very resentful of that. He'd want to buy toys, and I felt like we had more important things to do .... got martyr syndrome big-time. Sometimes we'd each just go spend a bunch of money just to prove that we could do it .... it was a terrible system, and we were always talking about how to fix it, but could never really come up with anything.

I have to say that this was a big frustration for both of us, and we both have some resentment about it .... but it was an open frustration .... no pink elephant hiding in the corner. And we've talked about it since, and both said that it was something to work on, but not a deal breaker. Maybe it was the one thing that we both agreed needed to be fixed .... ? I'm not sure how to say what I'm trying to say here. Hoping you get me....


"...the parental fiscal view very well. I bet you find many ways you did this...you didn't know he resented you for it, did you?"

I think I *did* know that .... and I resented it, too. But it just WORKED so well for us .... we could accomplish anything. He was the big, grand idea guy, and I was the one who could take care of all the details and make it happen. But I wanted help with all the heavy lifting and hated when I had to be the wet blanket, and he felt like he didn't have any control .... so the system only kind-of worked, which is what we chose to see, instead of the underlying problems it was creating.


"You have a lot of uncovering to do, AmI...uncovering gives you a boost of honesty, clarity and clear intent...."

Yeah, I can see that now. I understand the concept of the timeline and how to do it .... but I'm not at all clear about how to use the timeline once it's done. For now I'll focus on doing it, then can we come back to this?

LOVE the system you suggested. It is so simple and makes so much sense. And then I don't have a problem with the mechanical stuff .... and it's not him giving me money ..... it's going into the household account. I think with a few tweaks, it could be very fair. How have we missed this for so long???

"...heck, you work at a bank."

Nope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Couldn't let this go, first time you've ever been wrong, I think! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm a legal / regulatory type (couldn't ya tell?) in healthcare management.

"My "should" was that we were one, which meant my money was his and vice versa...always POJAing the money...until we didn't...until it became a tool to hurt and injure us both...him spending, me hoarding, which meant me actually hoarding resentment in equal quantities....aye-yi-yi-yah."

... have you been living at my house?? This is exactly what was going on with us. I thought it was abnormal....


"When you feel justification...look for your fear. Reasonable isn't justification...justification is from the tit for tat school...you did so I can do...has permissions in it..."

I guess that's what's bothering me .... I feel justification in sending those letters. I told him if he ever did it again, I'd send a new round of letters ..... he did, so I did. I feel justification all over it -- it was ok because it was trying to save my M, it was ok because he started seeing her again.... I'm having a hard time seeing the line between "reasonable", "boundary enforcement" and "justification".

"I want you to not believe his beliefs, feel his feelings or think his thoughts...disregarding, no; acknowledging, yes. Knowing and not acting on what isn't yours."

Ok, I think I get this. I can know, and acknowledge that he feels attacked .... and then what? Don't act on it. So just leave it there, as his?

Wow, this detachement stuff is harder than I thought. I want to save my real H ... protect him and rescue him from his attacker! (I want him to come save me from my attacker, too ... that's one of the hardest things about all of this -- that the one person I always believed would protect me is the one I need protection from.)

OK, for now, I can try to leave that with him, as his. I think I can see the false payoff, trying to be a hero, save him from his own consequences .... it's not helping, it's just getting in the way.

emotions aren't bad or good...they are information...accepting them for what they are, knowing they are valid AND temporary (they just deliver the info)...will help you to not stuff now...and slowly excavate all you did...

Whole new turn my world upside down concept. I know you've said this before, I just didn't really catch it until now.


Dru -----------------------

Yes, we've actualy talked about that. He doesn't really respond ... except to say he wanted out. I agree that it's very interesting how he can be betrayed and then have so many justifications when it comes to being the betrayer. And to not recognize the impact it will have on the kids ... I just can't comprehend that.



-AmI.

No, I think it will give him the ability to act with more impunity than he already has. It might improve his mood... but it could actually be a blow to your efforts to have him leave the OW.



Yes, and it is because of your good heart. Right now he doesn't fear losing his family enough to shake him loose of his wh0re. Making his fear have some teeth right now... hitting him with divorce papers will make this all the more real to him IMO. Nothing has gotten through enough to make him stop what he is doing... and bottom line, if he doesn't stop when he has two clear options in front of him... you or her... then he won't be worth keeping anyway.



As my "sister" I want you to give up.... but I know you shouldn't. But what it looks like from vantage point looking in... is that not doing anything to stir him to immediate action is giving up. This boy needs a kick in the [censored]... and you are the only person in a position to give it to him. I would also make sure the kids know as much as is age appropriate and hope that they lay into their dad too.



You're welcome... believe it. Heck, copy it and give it to him! Tell him it is from one cop to another... me to him. If he were my partner... I would have already kicked his butt!

Be brave AMI.

{{{{AMI}}}}

MEDC

We had a nice night last night. DS had a band concert, that we all went to. WH was being very pleasant and friendly. We went for ice-cream afterwards, and he bought. We even all rode in the same vehicle! That hasn't happened since that day that he took the kids .... has that already been almost a month ago?

So, nice evening. He went downstairs and crashed right after we got the kids in bed.

I went home for lunch today and he was cleaning out the refrigerator! (It was getting yucky, I was planning on cleaning it out tonight, won't complain at all about him doing it instead!)


I thought I understood how to do the resentment timeline, but stalled out on it last night. I could really use some pointers with this.


It's almost hunting season, and around here, that's just a half-notch below Christmas on the list of sacred holidays. I'm feeling a little unsure about how to handle itthis year, since it's always been kind of a big family event up until now .....getting WH and the boys all ready to go, meeting them at the camp on the weekends .... etc.

Pretty silly and petty to be worried about that in the overall big scheme of things.



MEDC .... I printed off your post, but decided that WH shouldn't see the whole thing, so I'm just going to copy and paste part of it .... I'm curious to see what his reaction is.



-AmI.

Hi Ami,

Please remind me... you have a lawyer and are proceeding directly to D because of unremorseful repeat offenses, yes? If not, what's your goal with your H?

And about the hunting, I understand. I'm from Tx and we never saw the men during hunting season. Depends...

How many trips a season?
Do you go on all? Most?
How old are the kids? Are they little and 'need' mommy stuff?
Do you want to go this year?

Thanks for the info - Dru

AmI,

Take your time with the resentment timeline, 'k? Write out all your resentments, chronologically, over the last seven years (your whole marriage)...like a list with explanations...meaning "Didn't take me to dinner 10/25/99" doesn't really cut it...and I know you love brevity, woman. Don't be brief...be episodic, 'k?

Leave room in between for additions...things you think of...we remember the stories we tell ourselves again and again...and as we lay them down on paper, you might recall smaller ones you haven't repeated or dwelled on...let as many as possible rise up, 'k? So you can see 'em.

LA

Hi, Dru.

Please remind me... you have a lawyer and are proceeding directly to D because of unremorseful repeat offenses, yes? If not, what's your goal with your H?

I am not the biological mom of the kids, but have been the one who has raised them. I have a very narrow legal window to be able to keep parenting time with them. WH has used them as a tool against me, and continues to threaten to do so. So I have a lawyer and have D papers ready in case I have to use them to protect my interest with the kids.

Also, I tried to go to Plan B, but Wh refused to move out of the house. Filing for D and requesting temporary orders may be the only way for me to get into Plan B. Leaving myself puts my legal relationship with the kids in jeopardy.

My goal with my H .... I want to make it work. I still love him. I desparately miss the man that he was, and I really believe that he's still there somewhere.

Yes, multiple d-days, all with the same OW.



How many trips a season?
Do you go on all? Most?
How old are the kids? Are they little and 'need' mommy stuff?
Do you want to go this year?

Just one big trip ... just a one-week (with two weekends) season for deer and elk.

I usually take the kids up with me just on the weekends, and come down for work and school during the week. They are 10 and 14, so not very needy at all and pretty fun to take camping. They will probably go up there on the weekends regardless of whether or not I go.

I do want to go ... I love getting away from town and being outside, playing on the 4-wheelers, sitting around the campfire .... I even like having a really good, hot dinner ready for the guys when they come in. DD and I always take big long nature walks .... I love it. He goes up with his brother and dad, who I love and get along with really well.

BUT ... I'm not sure if it looks like a desperate move, or clingy or something like that .... and I really don't know if it fits into the "guarded Plan A" that I'm supposed to be in. It would probably be awkward and uncomfortable .... I'm particularly worried about the idea of sharing a bed in the camper .... because half the time I'm around him, I just want to reach out and touch him .... Being that close to him would be very, very hard on me ....

And I'm not sure if he'd even be ok with me being there.


So ... I like the camping part of it, but also have a lot of fear around it. How's that for a non-answer?

-AmI.

Edited and moved where it belongs.....

see what happens when you get old!

SB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hi, SB ....

Think you got the wrong thread.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
No threats of suicide here .... although I might have considered homicide a couple of times .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AmI

URGENT: Be careful about involving 3rd parties in your marriage beyond qualified ministers, counselors and marriage coaches. That includes US on this board.

Please do not deliver ANY messages from any person on this board of what we think of his actions. It's the height of disrespectful judgements to do that - think about it. You're delivering 3rd party opinions about him written by people who have never met him, and have only your description of his behavior for us to form an opinion. It will not reflect well on YOU...

Plan A and everything you are paying almost $200 per session to learn directly from the man who has restored hundreds of marriages is to assist you in finding your own voice - your own strength while nurturing a relationship - instead of at the expense of the relationship. Don't sabotage your investment by communicating anything from an outsider.

The most attractive thing you can do for your marriage is to tell him - from your own heart, your own words, and your own voice, what you feel, and what you want, what you hope for, and what you believe can be.

Nurture that woman of strength!

AmI,

Could you elaborate on Harley's explanation of a guarded plan A.

He had me do the same thing. My take on it was that I continue doing plan A things, but kep my feelings more guarded. To kind of detach myself a little so his ups and downs, and behavior changes didn't affect me so much.

Do you want to go on the hunting trip? Don't think about your WH's reaction, or how he might treat you, etc. Do you want to go? Do you want to do all of those things for him that you have always done? If the answer is no, then obviously, don't go. If the answer is yes, then ask yourself, am I going to be able to handle how my WH treats me whether good or bad? Can you go and keep yourself "guarded" enough to enjoy yourself despite how WH treats you?

From reading your posts, I think you can. If he's being a total WS in everyway then you go about having your fun with your kids and the 4 wheelers, etc.

The difference between my regular plan A and my guarded plan A was that regular plan A I put up with everything out of my WH's mouth. I stood by and took it and processed it and hurt from it. I was too afraid of setting boundaries.

During guarded plan A, I detached myself. I still did all of the same plan A stuff but when foggy WH came out, I removed myself from the situation. I started setting boundaries. I think Orchids line says it best. Plan A the H and plan B the WH (or something like that). This also helped prepare me for plan B.

SH's guarded Plan A for me is similar .... he once said it was more like Plan-A'ing the kids .... and kind of just letting WH benefit from that if it splashes over a little bit.

Big difference from regular Plan A is that I don't try to meet WH's needs. Protecting my emotions and heart as much as possible .... kind of like you said, removing myself when I need to. Also, regularly repeating the mantra of learning how to have a great marraige, we can save this marriage, we just don't know how, it's in our best interest to save the marriage, etc.

Yes, I want to go hunting, and in almost every case, I can remove myself or go have fun with the kids, FIL, BIL, etc. whenever I need to. I don't mind doing those things for him, I actually like it.

The one time that I couldn't remove myself is from the sleeping arrangements. Probably a silly thing to worry about, but I do, anyway.

I'm also worried about it appearing clingy or desperate or ....? Maybe it's a good thing for him to have some time away from me, without me taking care of things for him ..... or maybe it would help bring back some of the memories of how it used to be ..... all these maybes and what-ifs in my head ....

Maybe I should just ask him about going? Tell him how weird it feels to have this coming up, and not really know how to prepare for it.... ?

O&H, right? Getting my mouth open ..... Think that would work?

-AmI.

follow your heart.... if it says to go... ask him about going. I hope you are having a nice day.