So many of us here have had and may still do, have difficulty in forgiving a spouse who has betrayed you or if you are a spouse who did the betraying, forgiving yourself.

I have myself struggled with it and I guess I shall in some ways for the rest of my life. But I must strive to forgive myself as my most beloved husband has forgiven me. Even when, perhaps even more importantly when you are righteously so bitter and hurt because of your spouses actions against you, you should forgive them for YOUR sake.

Why am I sitting here in the early morning or late at night, its about 4am here, thinking about this? I reading my H latest letters from Afghanistan as he describes some of what he’s going through and realizing the trust he places in giving this information to me, sharing the horror of war in stark and brutal lines because I asked him to share it with me. I hope I pray it will help me help him on his return God willing.
After all I put him through he writes “When I am alone out in the night waiting for ……. to come to me I often think of what a wonderful thing it was to have met you and loved you. I’ll never stop loving you, my darling no matter what happens. “
I have received an act of grace, a precious gift which I’m not sure I deserve, but accept and treasure.

I have spent some long and agonizing times wondering about forgiveness. There are supposed to be two different kinds of forgiveness. The first is a willingness to forgo vengeance, but not to try to repair the relationship.
Giving this type of forgiveness is really just plain good mental health for anyone. Its I think the easiest of the two for many. My priest gave a sermon on this and said
“Ask yourself how much does your hatred/pain hurt your husband/wife and how much does it hurt you? What will your vengeance, if you ever can find it, cost you? Will it ever be enough? Is there anything you can do to keep the hate/hurt from eating you up except to release it?
This type of forgiveness is what allows you to stop letting what someone has done to you to control your life. It does not mean that you have to spare the other the consequences of what they have done. You don't have to like them or even wish them well. The important thing is that you can't forget about them until you have decided to forgive them. “

The other kind of forgiveness, full forgiveness, is much harder. It involves trying to re-establish a relationship, perhaps never as it was, never as it had been, but a new full loving supporting relationship. The thing is though that full forgiveness is only possible if the other party repents and also works to repair what they've done.
When you think on it. It’s all pretty standard MB thinking isn’t it?
"Forgiveness is a decision not an emotion."

Have you ever heard of Corrie Ten Boom? She was a Christian Holocaust survivor who helped many Jews escape the Nazis during World War II. The Nazis arrested the entire Ten Boom family on February 28, 1944 with the help of a Dutch informant, they were sent first to Scheveningen concentration camp, then to the Vught political concentration camp (both in the Netherlands), and finally to the notorious Ravensbrück concentration camp in Germany in September 1944, where Corrie's sister Betsie died. She had pretty good reasons to not forgive I think. It was she who said, "Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. It is those who are able to forgive who are best able to rebuild their lives."

Forgiveness is as much about helping you as it is for those you forgive, even if they don’t want it.
YOU are the winner.
What’s easier I wonder … forgiving or accepting the forgiveness?

Forgiveness is a word I struggle with. I wonder if we use it incorrectly when we ask others to forgive something we've done.

For example: For me I have let go the resentment & desire to punish ex for what' he's done to our family & to me. I don't believe ex would have the right to ask me to forgive him. As you said I do this for myself. The dictionary describes it in the same way.

When people ask if you can forgive them it seems to me they're asking you to give them the peace that comes from letting go a wrong. I can't do that for another, I can only do that for myself.

I have made my peace with what I consider to be ex's wrongs. He will have to live with the fallout & I don't think it's vengence to know & understand this will happen or even to wish it so. No amount of "forgiveness" can stop the cosmic wheel of karma from coming to bite one in the [censored] for their actions. Is it vengence to want to see what goes around comes around? If you take joy in it perhaps it is vengence.

{{AW}} Love you my dear, dear friend. Have you forgiven yourself yet?

Thanks aussieswife.

We forgive total strangers for transgressions every day.

Other people forgive us for doing or saying stupid or mean things.

We forgive people in our families for purposeful acts or accidental errors.

Some people forgive their enemies for acts of unkindness, hatred, and evil.

People whose family members have been murdered forgive the murderers all the time.

Victims forgive criminals.

Forgiveness happens all the time, all around us.

Why then do we find it so difficult to forgive our WS, when they are someone we LOVE? Is the WS someone who is less worthy of forgiveness than the stranger on the street?

Why are we less willing to forgive ourselves? Are we less worthy than the stranger on the street?

My friend said, "Everyone is worthy of forgiveness." I think it is exactly the person who believes himself unworthy - who is full of remorse and repentence - it is he who should receive the gift of forgiveness.

AW, whether or not you forgive yourself, you have been forgiven. You see, God only has to be asked ONCE for forgiveness, and he grants it. He is trying to figure out why you keep asking, when it's already been given.


SB

Hello , Flower. I pray for you and yer big lunk.

Forgiveness is a big thing indeed. I thought I'd forgiven Squid early on but she hadn't earned it so it was a noble gesture, but incomplete.

I read a very good book called "How can I forgive you?" by teh same lass who wrote "after the affair ". It's not only or even specifically about forgiving affairs, but its useful in any case.

It describes pretty much what YOU explain here : that where forgiveness cannot or will not be earned by the offender, then acceptence ( forgiveness without rebuilding) is a perfectly acceptable ambition that heals the heart.

Itgot me thinking and praying about yoru SECONG challenge : fogivenss with a commitment to rebuilding the broken relationship. I have had trouble with this. I have com eto believe it harder because it requires GRACE : the willingness to meter undeserved trust , love and forgiveness despite their being an unrighted ( or unrightable) wrong outstanding.

As Schoolbus says we 'forgive' near strangers everyday for their insult sto us BUT th enature of their insult is usually not personal, teh magnitude not eviscerating AND afterwards we do not need to embrace them into our most vulnerable and hurting core in order to restore a viable relationship.

See I am coming to view infidelity as one of satans best weapons. It poisons and makes unwholesome the very heart of a godly marriage. The source of goodness and comfort in life becomes the source of untrust and hurt and wrath.

Of course Squid had no idea nor intention that her actions as they escalated to and thorugh her affair were actually going to rot out the beating heart of our life's goodness, and I am certain she stands horrified at the consequences of her actions now.

Where the grace comes is is not only to aver that the betrayed will take no penalty from the WS for their insult, but also that they will embrace the WS back into the most sore and vulnerable place in their heart and their life and trust them to help heal it.

That is a very tall order for me, AW.

Squid DESPERATELY wants me to need her; to rely on her; to trust her without question once more. To let her into the wound she made but I am instinctively protective of that wound now. It requirs Grace because we must welcome the person who hurt us so viscerally back into the exact same place where they can do it again, else we have acceptance not FORGIVENESS IMO. This is absolitely counterintuitive for me.

I realise that my forgiveness of people in the past has actually been acceptance. My sister and I have a polite rlationship but zero intimacy not shared experience. She hurt me a while back. She would LOVE us to embrace intimately back into each others lives but I just won't. fear of being hurt again ? Certainly. A way of punishment ? Sickeningly, yes probably. Passive resistance. Ghandi would be proud. Or not.

Squid and I have another thirty or forty years together and I don't ant them to be at arms length; she yearning for the restoration of something she irrepairably destroyed, me wanting peace without vulnerability to further hurt so we have to do something to move forward.

I started last week to invest in Squid as I did in the early days after NC started and the change in her has been startling. She has told me she has felt insecure for a while, because I was clearly so hurt and withdrawing. Sh ehas been opening up far more in just this week. Raising her affair in discussion like she hasn't in more than a year.

So I have hopes.

But AW, your post is a good and thought provoking one. Forgiveness is very hard and wholly uninstinctive for amny of us. I'll just have to keep working on it in prayer.

What an interesting thread.

In my case (realtionship not saved, divorced and WXH still living with OW) I guess I fall into the first category.

It's terribly, terribly hard to forgive when someone isn't the least bit sorry. Also when you are in NC (as we are) there is no way to attempt to build bridges.

I am still not at the stage where I am able to forgive him. I kind of feel 'Why should I? He destroyed my life, damaged our children, abandoned us and blamed me for it!' He hasn't shown the least remorse or regret for any of it.

I know I am only shooting myself in the foot by not forgiving. In fact, I have just bought a new book - 'Forgiving the Unforgiveable' by Beverly Flanigan, which I hope will help me. I wonder if anyone here has read it.

Alph.

I haven't read the book, Alphin.

My problem is the same as yours - a XWH that never made any efforts to lose the "W", but wanted to continue down that path, no matter how much he hurt me.
What helps me forgive (slow process, can't be forced IMHO) is understanding what makes X "tick".
In my case that is seeing what it is in his character that makes him act the way he does.
That way I don't take it personally anymore (or a lot less, anyway).
When I do that I can relax and take my distance - then I'm really just sorry for him, and even that feeling is disappearing.
When I do take it personally then Wham! all the old feelings come rushing back.
Not as strongly as they used to.
But still.. tricky stuff, those triggers.

I think the basic problem is fear.
Fear of being hurt again.
As long as no disasters occur in our lives, we are naive in thinking we don't have to be afraid.
We think our children will outlive us.
We think our partner will never cheat on us.
We think we will never cheat on our partner..
etc etc.
We're not afraid because we are blind and naive.

It's pretty shocking to see this pleasant version of life, this bubble of a reality, burst.
When that happens we suddenly don't trust anyone anymore, not even ourselves, since we also fooled ourselves into thinking we were safe.
Many have even lost their seemingly unshakeable faith in God after they lost a child.
And cannot forgive even God for this..

In old english forgiving is forgiefan "give, grant, allow," also "to give up" and "to give in marriage;" from for- "completely" + giefan "give" (see give).

It means to give completely..
What a turnaround for someone who is afraid to trust.
No wonder it's a slow process of healing.
It takes strength and faith to give completely.
Not so much faith in the other person IMO - but faith in the fact that this giving is the right thing to do.
I don't think this can be forced - you can't make yourself have faith.
But we can examine our fears and work from there.
Less fear = greater ability to give wholeheartedly.

So to me it's not really about trusting the other.
It's about becoming a bigger person myself so that I don't have to be afraid to get hurt (so much anymore).
And about being more realistic (less "blind") in relationships.
About knowing what my limitations are as a person - what I can take and what I cannot.
Maybe that means losing some of the rose-colored outlook on life we have when we're naive..
But it also means I can deeply enjoy any beauty that comes along in the form of real friendship or love.

My situation is similar to Alphin. Non-repentant WS. Separated and with simply v little or no contact.

Have to say I'm not at the full forgiving stage yet.. It is v difficult to do so when you are simply abandoned and left to fend for yourself with v sparse resources available. But I have promised myself that I will get there one day.

Forgiveness is something that I have had to do for two extremely large transgressions against me as a child. I was the victim of two felony crimes. One at age 7, the other at age 12. I have forgiven the criminals. Truly and completely. These crimes took over the inside of my soul, and my mind, and ruled who I was for many years, until about the age of 16, when I prayed to God to help me forget them. I did, to some degree, until I was about 19 or 20. I guess you could say God gave me a reprieve from the memories and flashbacks until I was able to deal more ably with the events, as an adult, with adult reasoning. I thank Him for that, because it made all the difference in my ability to function normally now.

It was the ability to understand how to forgive completely and how to let go of the events that made it possible for me to go on with my life. Without forgiving the criminals, I could not have moved ahead. The anger and fear was eating up my ability to establish and maintain other relationships in my life.

So it was with the affair. When d-day happened, it brought back many of the same feelings that I had lived with throughout my early years. The fears, the anger, the sense of guilt (yes, I actually had guilt that I was the cause of the crimes, especially the second one, because I thought that I was always being extra safe given the first event).

The affair made me replay all of the events leading up to d-day, and I went over everything I did wrong during the marriage, over 30 years. I placed the blame on myself, something I tend to do in excess. And I couldn't forgive myself - problem number one.

Then I became angry at my H, and couldn't forgive him - problem number two.

The marriage would not have survived if both of these problems weren't solved. And I didn't see that maintaining the wall and holding on to the distance between us was productive in moving ahead in recovery. At about four months out, I had to take about a week of soul-searching and truly focusing on forgiveness. Looking at the world and seeing how it was done. And I looked inside myself for that "place" I found once long ago that set me free from the pain before.

And I found some things there that really helped me. Besides the things I posted above. The monk story helped too, which is posted somewhere in this forum, in the last day or so. It helped me with the affair, because it put things in perspective about how my H felt about OW.

But I found forgiveness to be enigmatic. Forgiveness is a gift that, if you do not give it away, you can never get it for yourself.

As soon as I was able to give it away, I reaped the benefits of the lifting of the weight of the fear, the stress, the tears, the memories, the dreams, and all the rest. It seemed that my head cleared from the memories of the crimes, and I could suddenly - literally suddenly - see the world in a new way. I know that as I explain this to all of you, there must be some who think I am a little crazy, but I swear it is true. I can see the day as if it happened just now. I remember where I was, and how it all happened. The sun grew brighter, the air changed in how it smelled. The sound of the wind in the trees, which was not audible, suddenly grew in intensity and became a loud rushing in my ears. I could hear the traffic, the birds, and the voices of the people inside the house, despite the fact that I was outside in the yard. My body was lifted in posture, and I could feel the air entering into my lungs. It was as though God Himself had entered me and given me new life - CPR for the soul.

From that day forward, there have been no flashbacks, no dreams, no tears, no fears. The haunting of the men who raped me as a 7 year old has vanished. The man who beat me when I was 12 and left me battered and bruised and barely able to walk is a ghost. I know these things happened, but they are distant memories, and one single act moved them out of my way.

Forgiveness.

I gave away forgiveness, and it was the one gift that gave back to me what I never expected - healing for myself.

And so it has been in our recovery. As I am able to forgive the affair, I see the healing for myself. Although I do find it hardest to forgive myself for my own shortcomings - for not doing the things I could have done to prevent the affair in the first place, such as meeting his ENs. I'm still at the drawing board for this area. I am most saddened by those things, and I find myself most stuck right there - he is easier to forgive than I am in this whole mess.

So I will go back to that place again, this time in search of forgiveness for myself. But, I do have some experience in this matter, and I figure I've traveled this road before. I don't need a map.

SB

Forgive, sounds good.
Forget, I'm not sure I could.
They say time heals everything,
But I'm still waiting

nice song & All too true

FF I have forgiven myself for the affair, I'm not sure I forgive myself in full for what lead to it, my response to Aussie after Peters death. Working on it though
If you can ever get Aussie to talk about it I think you'll find he has not yet forgiven himself for not being there. But he doesn't talk about it.
We both live for the moment these days, long term planning seems a distant dream that’s for other people. wistful.

NAMS
I guess I am saying that you should forgive for YOUR sake not his. To step back from the pain and hurt he delivered to you, to take that control away from him and let him go completely. Forgiving will allow you that.

Schoolbus
I have faith God has forgiven me. I even truly believe that my H has forgiven me. Myself, well that a bit more confusing.

Bob
Dear friend I miss our jokes and odd arguments lol
But both of you are in my prayers always and I have both hope and faith you will find the path back together. I think for us its not the old one, I killed that in our case, Squid in yours.
It’s a new path, a new M. We shall either sow it with weeds or flowers. NOTHING is free here though. It’s darn hard work.
When you have what you feel is everything, heaven on earth, and it gets taken away from you, its so hard so bitter, I hated God for that. You ask why? Why? why? What answers are there to lessen the pain?
You pick up the pieces, you make a life as happy and loving as you can, why should you have to? The best answer I have is because we’re here in this life and place Bob, just because we are here.
Does Squid talk to you about this Bob? I wish Aussie would, He just shoulders it and walks off into the sunset so to speak.
I wonder how true it really is that we women marry men like our fathers? I did by the looks of it lol (nothing is wrong with me, leave me alone, clam bake expert as TL says), my DD is going to as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Now that’s an entirely different thread I think!! Lol

Alph
I don’t think its something you can force. At least I couldn’t. But you try a bit each day and even if you do forgive, NOTHING says you protect him from the consequences such as support and whatever!! Insisting he faces the consequences is not revenge either. Forgiveness in your case Alph seems to me to be more helpful for YOU. You need not even have contact with him. Its for YOU.

Ashley
Forgiveness is hard. Lets not pretend its not. You can perhaps one day forgive his actions and hurt he has given you, but you also need to protect yourself from him if he is still inflicting that hurt. That may mean legal action or whatever to obtain support and to have him face the consequences of his choices. When YOU are ready in your own time, you will forgive because its healthy for you to do so
I guess it does not make this time any easier though does it?

schoolbus

a BS has no reason to accept blame for a choice their partner made. Please dont be too hard on yourself.
you may have helped allow the M to drift to a place where he could choose an affair, and I'm not always convinced of that, however you were part of a two member team, a M... you have no more responsibility than he has on that score.
I'm certainly no expert schoolbus, I'm still finding my way, however I wonder if forgiving oneself is more emotive and more subject to "If only I's ...". I don't know.. it hard though.

well off to bed, my little bloke has gone back to sleep and fingers crossed didn't wake up when I put him in bed, so this tied mum is off to sleep to get ready for another week of work .. I wanna win lotto <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

hope you have a lovely day all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Does Squid talk to you about this Bob?

She has started again in the past week AW. Trouble is she thinks she deserves me to divorce her, treat her like crap, feel like crap forever etc etc. She feels unworthy of investing in our new marriage. Unworthy of ME.

So if I answer how hurt I am and how much damage I perceive has been done to our marriage it just takes her lower.

Any advice ?

If Squid holds these (undeserving) beliefs about herself, she acquired them ~before~ she ever met you!

Pep

Aussiewife,

I believe you just interpreted a dream I had about a month ago.

Dream - I was standing with my pastor on a path, leaning on him, it was comforting. We were looking ahead at a garden of beautifully bloomed flowers...no weeds.

(Pastor was very instrumental in saving our marriage.)


by aussieswife,

Blessings,
Lady

Pep

Squid's never had great INTRINSIC self esteem or self worth. She's had to have an enviable car, be a more senior nurse or a better karateka. All external stuff.

Squid thinks she has become her despised biomom by havig her affair and doesn't feel she deserves any better than her bio mom does.

AT least she's TALKING about IC right now. Thats a giant leap.

AW,

We shall sow with weeds AND flowers this time around, too. The trick is that this time, we will recognize the weeds and pluck them out as soon as we see them sprouting. That is our hope.

Bob,

I recognize Squid's anguish in myself. I have done things that I could not forgive myself for, and wished that person I hurt would hurt me - and NOT forgive me. I also had extremely low self-esteem and self-worth, and sought after these things through external means. For many years, I thought that I had rightly deserved the things that had happened to me as a child, in fact, it seemed that at times I almost sought out bad things in my life because I almost expected them to happen to me.

I lived in a drama. It was what was "normal". The trauma that was my life really made things not quite right for me.
I struggle to explain this to you.

I guess I will try to give an example. Let's say you grow up in a household where the truth doesn't matter. The truth is malleable - it can change from day to day, depending on what works for the person in charge. So, on Monday, it might be true that you are a good little girl, who has done all of her chores, and is deserving of cake after dinner. But on Wednesday, the person in charge says that you haven't done your chores all week, and EVERYONE agrees that is true. You try to say that it couldn't be true, because just that Monday, you had cake for dessert for doing your chores! Everyone says you are a liar, and you are punished for two things: not doing your chores, and for lying about the cake.

This would make any person kind of insecure after awhile, right? I know it's an extreme example, but consider that a person who lived in an unstable environment, such as with alcoholic parents, or a bipolar parent, or abusive parents, for example, might grow up in a situation where things are very unpredictable. It leads to lots of strange fears, a sense of instability within the self, a sense of unworthiness. Wanting to be punished isn't a surprise to me, because it is likely that she expects it as a result of her behavior. I don't know her history, but it sounds like something I would do. I have to watch myself that I don't seek punishment instead of compromise or solutions to problems:

The man who assaulted me was my father - he beat me with a weapon; the next day, when he saw the bruises and wounds, he asked me where I got them. I knew I was in trouble again - if I lied, he would beat me for lying; if I told the truth, I didn't know what would happen but it would be good. I went with the truth. He beat me again for having the bruises and not covering them up....


Anyway.

Inside of me, there was a person who wanted so much to be worthy. All along, I saw other people who seemed to be so much better than I was - stronger in spirit, happier, luckier, smarter, more loved. I could not see that the thing that prevented me from having that was also the one thing I could give myself! It could not come from anywhere else but inside - I could not buy it, no one could give it to me. And I had it all along. It was a sense of worth. I spent so much time believing that I had none, and convincing myself that this was true, that I made it true in four ways: by my acts to myself, my acts to others, my words to myself, and my words to others.

And it is those four things that had to change in order to change my sense of worth. Maybe if you could help Squid with those four things, she could see her own worthiness.


JMHO. The only advice I have to offer for her.
SB

Quote: "The man who assaulted me was my father - he beat me with a weapon; the next day, when he saw the bruises and wounds, he asked me where I got them. I knew I was in trouble again - if I lied, he would beat me for lying; if I told the truth, I didn't know what would happen but it would be good. I went with the truth. He beat me again for having the bruises and not covering them up...."

(((Schoolbus))) - what a sad, painful memory for you. TT

SB

Thank you for your heartfelt post.

How did you find self worth within you ?

Squid has trouble with this. I see lots of good in her but she doesn't believe me

Bob

During & after my affair following Peters death I was extremely depressed. I felt I deserved little, in fact I should suffer and be punished for my failures. I was a sh*t wife and a sh*t mother in my mind.
I felt I could never make it up to Aussie for it all.
In part that's true of course.

What is hard to come to accept is that you can NEVER make it up. You can make NEW memories, new M, new ways of ensuring you don't fail that way again. It simply does not make it up to your spouse what you took away. At least I feel that way.

When you begin to discover that there is a feeling of despair and utter defeat. A desire, a desperation enters your thinking of wanting to have your H respect and trust and love. You think that if he punishes you or hurts you that somehow it will begin to close the vast chasm you feel between you. Of course its a recipe for self destruction and helps no one.
I had to get IC help to understand THAT was not what my H wanted, desired or needed.

He wanted the wife he M, who grew with him over the years, even through the pain & loss of our son. In a way, it was as hard to give up that need to be punished and hurt as it was to work through the affair itself. I'm not entirely over that even now. I guess it may take years.

Bob, Squid needs IC, there is no way I truly believe she can begin to heal and thus help you heal until she beins to works through these feelings and beliefs.
Like many Aust & Brits I thought IC was a load of crap except for extreme mental illness.
Don't you just hate to be wrong? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />