Hi Guys,
Well, I sure wish that I had followed your advice last year. We're now back to square one...

Long story 'short', we've been married for 9 years, together for 12. We're both 32. We have 2 kids 6 and 2.
WH is an alcoholic. He has been in rehab twice, 'detox' once. Since the birth of my son 6 years ago, maybe a little after, he began living a separate life from us, which has continued to this day. He is in the restautant business, so finishes late at night, and then goes out drinking.
In rehab (26 days, Feb '05) he met someone who he then began an affair with. He started drinking/using again with her. He was with her approximately 6 nights, and slept with her 3 times. The affair ended when I discovered it, and he went back to rehab. He lost his job over the time spent off work and we were forced to move out of state. He did not remain sober, and was soon going out again. I had hoped to go to counselling, and tried the EN questionnaire, no love-busters, weak plan A, etc. In September of 05 he was 'asked to leave' yet another job, due to his drinking, and at this point he decided to get sober again. We moved out of state to another 'new start' and he began drinking again in February. Things have spiralled downward since. We recently moved again to a great new job and city, and despite the drinking, I felt like we had a real chance to be happy here. About 3 weeks ago, he started going out more frequently, and has met someone else. He says it is just an EA at this point, but I really don't believe him. He wants to separate, and is spewing fog talk. ILYBINILWY, I need to find myself, I don't know what I want, I just want out, etc, etc.
He has spent several nights away from home. He is supposed to come and pick up his 'stuff' today.
Why do I want to be with this guy? I love him. He is a good person when he doesn't drink. He is not abusive, is good with is kids, what little he sees of them- he gets home after they're asleep, and my son is in school, so he's gone before WH gets up. I want us to be a family, and I know things could be good (like they often are on his days off). He's a big conflict avoider, and has never been good at sharing feelings/problems- we don't argue, we just shut down.
Sex is good when it happens, not often enough lately due to all of the stress of moving, him drinking, me feeling vulnerable to being hurt again, etc.
Help?
I want him to stay in the home, but I'm not sure that he will- I think he wants to 'test the waters' with her, or move to company provided housing, to see if he can get the 'clean slate' he wants. I'm afraid of pushing him away with R talk and trying to communicate with the alien is so hard- I don't speak the language.
Sigh.
Tell me what to do-- I'm desperate to make the right choices this time.

B3D

Hi b3d,

I'm sorry you are in this complicated and difficult situation.
I can't giving you any advice regarding your WH's alcoholism as I have no experience in that area, but I hope that the posters here that have will chime in after the weekend (things are usually slow around here in the weekend, so don't think no-one will answer).

It seems to me that your WH has a lot of work to do to overcome his problems - conflict avoidance big time, leaving you to deal with the problems HE creates.
And that's not a situation that should be permanent.
This will lower his self respect as he knows this deep down (in that place of conscience no alien can reach).
The question is - will he get himself together enough to deal with his problems or just keep running away from them?

I don't think he can do this without professional help.
Are you in al-anon (is it called that in the US) ?

My best wishes to you
((((b3d))))

Thanks Brownhair,
I appreciate your thoughts.
You're right- he does need professional help- whether he will agree to get it is another story. We (I) have a counselling appt. set up for Monday. He says he will go. However, I think he will try to use it as an exit strategy. He has recently gone cold-turkey from AD's due to an insurance mixup, and has been unstable ever since. (2 weeks). I'm worried that a combination of the alcohol/ad's/low self-esteem (he thinks what he has done is unforgiveable and has no respect for me for staying with him. He doesn't believe I love him, and that I'm just staying for the paycheck/kids sake)
I am not currently in al-anon, but my daughter starts preschool this week, so I will be able to go.

Thanks for the hugs- I could really use them right now.

B3D

alcoholics are more self-focused than non-alcoholics ~before~ they give themselves permission to have an affair >>> and afterwards >>> the self-focus excuses and blaming SKYROCKET!

once they give themselves that permission to have affairs, they have conveniently provided themselves a laundry-list of their spouses "failures & faults" that are "the reason I had to cheat"

and, guess what? ~~~> it's ALL bullchit !

and guess what else? ~~~> the sober spouse bites from this poison fruit/chews/swallows EVERY last crumb & morstle their drinking spouse throws at them

"I drink because my self-esteem is low" .... "Oh you poor dear"

"I drink because I am depressed" ... "Oh my goodness, you need my help"

"I cheat because you are too demanding" ... "I'm sorry"

"If you took better care of me I'd be happier" ... "I promise to do better"

IT IS UNENDING AND CYCLIC IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE YOURSELF BECAUSE HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE .... HE LIKES THIS!

spouses of alcoholics tend to "wait and see" what the mood-temperature of their drinking-spouse will be before they say/do things

because the sober spouse is walking on eggshells most of the time, they instruct-by-example ... and the children living in the house learn that one must be careful around the sick-terrorist family member and avoid confronting the truth much of the time

it's a very sick cycle

this cannot be fixed in marriage therapy >>> unless YOU make the determination (while there) that YOU have decided to step OUT of the dance & live YOUR life differently

but

most sober-to-alcoholic situations seem all too cozy & comfortable to the also-sick sober spouse who has someone who >>> "makes me miserable" ... and thus, takes no steps to NOT be miserable because "I can't, I tried, but it did not work" <<< a very convenient cop out

Pep

If YOU are going to marriage therapy hoping HE will change ... I guarantee that this is a huge waste of time & money

go to therapy ~only~

with the understanding/acceptance

that the one who needs to change is ~~~> you

YOU hold the keys to change ... not your husband

do YOU accept that you hold they keys to this?

YOU have the power, he does not

you are the change-generator, he is not

you are the one responsible for your being stuck, he is not

you are stuck because you refuse to change .... do you understand?

Pep

some Al-anon meetings have FREE childcare

call & ask

Pep

Pep,
Thanks so much. You gave me good advice last time too. SOrry I didn't follow it.
I understand I need to change- but what? how?

Let him go and plan A? Plan B? (How do you do this legally with kids?) I have the will- just not the knowledge, I guess. I'm afraid I'd just be handing him exactly what he wants on a platter- the means to be with her, and drink. But I guess he's doing that now, isn't he? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
HOw do I approach the counseling session tomorrow?

Thanks again for your replies.
Lost.

B3D

I don't feel like this is the case. Though you can call me on my delusional bs if you like...I'm just running out of ideas and I feel paralysed by the possibility of doing the 'wrong' thing, and sending everything sideways.

B3D

b3d,
I have been doing some gardening & thinking meanwhile (amazing how gardening clears the mind <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I have been in some serious denial regarding my first H.
Never an A there, but drinking problem.
Just because he had it "under control" up to the point where he would never drink at work, or when we needed to go somewhere where it would look weird if he had been drinking, I kept thinking he was a habitual drinker - not an alcoholic.

Just recently my therapist told me that based on my account of his behavior, he DID qualify as an alcoholic.

Boy do I know about the "I'll do better next time" line.
For me, that is.
He was very critising - drunk or not, just more agressively when he was drunk.
I felt I was a horrible W that was good for nothing.

It took our son's death (meningitis) to wake me up.
At that point, my H treated me like I thought it was NORMAL to treat your spouse, your mate, the person you say you love: with consideration.

After two months H started reverting to his old behavior and something snapped inside of me.
I had had ENOUGH.
I got out.
I was very scared of him, as he would get physically abusive as well - but not scared enough to stay either.

I was about your age (29) when I got out of that M and never looked back.

Don't let it come that far for you.
Don't let your child see and learn from his abusive example.

You'll need to detox too - from him and the mind manipulating he uses.
So find yourself a safe environment and a support group.

A lawyer can help you find out what you can do and should do to safeguard yourself.

once more, honey, (((((b3d))))
gather your strength, take a deep breath.
You need to step out of this cycle.

Hey Brownhair,
Thanks again for taking the time to think about this. I'm so sorry for the loss of your son.
I am not afraid of him. He does not abuse me or my children. I feel like I have made our lives better by working on making more time for the two of us to spend together, getting the kids' schedules on track, keeping the house, and myself looking good. I don't feel like a horrible wife, I just want to have a plan of attack, so to speak.
Are you really suggesting I divorce him? I was hoping to try some marriage-building first...

B3D

Conventional marriage therapy tools & concepts (Harley's included) do NOT work if the marriage is crippled by alcoholism or drug addiction

Plan A >>> when the WS is an active alcoholic/drug addict makes the WS very very happy to continue both their affair and their drinking

a waste of effort

I recommend Al-anon and Plan B

Pep

I second Pep.
You have tried and tried and tried.
What more?
How much longer?
I plan A'd my first H for 9 years.
Doesn't work.
Didn't stop him drinking.
Just slowly drained me.

Actually alcohol is a very patient mistress..
She'll always be there...
While your life is ticking away.

Fair enough. Thanks for your input. Good luck to you all.
I'll post again if a miracle happens.

Best
B3d

b3d..
plan B is NOT divorcing.

I will discuss plan B with the Lawyer I'm seeing on Monday. After WH asked for a separation I figured I'd better get the child support covered asap. I can see him quitting his job for a much less stressful and time-consuming one, at a much lower income, so I need to get things sorted.
Plan B is exactly what he wants, but at this point I have to think of myself for a change.
So sad that it has come to this.

B3D

Hi b3d,

yes it's sad.
And yes.. you have to think of yourself now.
I'm not so sure he'll still want plan B in a while..
Mood swings..
Reality replacing phantasy..
Be prepared for him trying to get back into your life on HIS terms pretty soon when he needs your support again.
Make him realise you're serious about him needing to do some real hard work before you'd even CONSIDER taking him back into your life and that of your child.
AA for one thing..
and no A's !
And a lot of time to prove that he's serious about it.

Here is a Plan B discussion you may want to look at...

CLICK HERE <~~~

Pep

b3d...

you got three moves with children...
and yet everywhere you move to ..
there you are...same boat...different pond...

please please please listen to PEP...
and stop with the thanks for the advice I'm outta here...unless a miracle happens..

you gotta BE the miracle
make it so

listen to PEP...and brown....
use the wisdom offerred here to support you....

three times you deny abuse...but I say alcohol abuse of this extreme..pattern of losing job after job...(some people drink for years and years...BUT maintain the same job throughout...)

placing the children in direct danger of his repeatitive affairs....

financial job loss etc...

does not bode well for young children....

he robs their lives of stability...
drags them around the country...

and repeats the whole mess over and over....

aren't you tired yet...

arent' you afraid that it is becoming all you know so it seems normal to you...
do you want this life style to be the norm for your kids...

ARK

Thanks Ark.
I know you're right- I just keep hoping that he will stop drinking.
I have resigned myself to the fact that unless he is sober and not seeing 'her' (know nothing about her), nothing will change. He has not been home for 2 more nights now (Fri, Sat), and I'm seeing the lawyer sometime tomorrow.
I didn't mean to offend when I said
I meant the miracle would be if he stops drinking. He is too far gone, I think.
I think Plan B might backfire on me, as he'll still get to see his kids, and I'll be 'out of sight, out of mind". Also because I wasn't able to try to fill his emotional needs in Plan A (haven't done it this time around- Pep suggested skipping it). I will do it (Plan B), as soon as the legal separation agreement is done. Though it seems he might be Plan B-ing me- no contact today at all.

Thanks Pep for the links, and Brownhair for your thoughts too. I'm really not as grumpy as I sound, I swear. Just tired and brain-scrambled.

B3D

Miracles DO happen

and

YOU must prepare for yours

by becoming strong unto yourself

when a drunk stops drinking he usually gets more difficult to live with (I know, I've been through this, my husband has 10 years sobriety) ...

as an Al-anon not getting help, you struggle under the misassumption that once booze is out of the picture, all things will fall into place

guess what?

that is not true!

without alcohol, your husband will be without his most trusted coping mechanism!

he will be very grumpy & irritable & nasty to be around ~~~> more so than now ~!

drunks don't learn life lessons while they are still in their drinking years ... so they are YEARS & sometimes decades behind in maturity & life skills

.... that is only ONE of the reasons YOU need treatment ... because you won't know how to deal with your husband sober!

Pep