Hi all, I'm new here and at this point trying to survive an affair that my wife had with my friend, a close friend. It was mind numbing to say the least, and I just wished that she had it with somebody at her work, over internet, or her old friend that I didnt know. But when life throws a curve ball it doesnt see the convinence. Here are the details -
I have this friend who got seperated (of sorts) from his gf a yr ago and started to hang out with us. During one party my wife started acting a little flirty with him in my presence, we had a fight, she said she just got attracted towards him and that it was mistake and that its no big deal (that was a year ago). We started to hang out more and more (my mistake) and this june when I was out of town he called her for dinner. I called her around 10:30pm, only to find out that she is having dinner with him. I was so angry that I just hung up on her (my mistake but couldnt control my anger). She decided to tell him what she feels about him and he recipocrated. They even had a physical thing that night (although I dont know the extent of it), she insists that she didnt have intercourse. I have to say that she has been very honest to me all my life (known her for 9 yrs, married for over 3 yrs, I'm 31 and she's 30). Anyways, they had this affair from that night for about a month and half. They even jumped to the idea of getting married. She finally decided to come clean and told me about a month and half ago. When I confronted my friend, he started acting weird. My wife says she is sorry and that she had no control on her emotions and that it was not the right thing to do, but she's still not over this guy (she says she is but I can feel it).
I'm doubly pained by the whole event, making good progress with my wife but the backstabbing from the friend is still very warm and fresh. I see images of them making out in my house and then him laughing at me.
Has anybody been in this situation, I know dealing with infidelity is painful but dealing with infidelity and backstabbing is even more painful.
Looking for some guidance and help
Will post more information soon.
Thanks
D

Welcome, SOML...to MarriageBuilders.

You are in a place many have experienced exactly what you are now...that double betrayal...as well as self-betrayal in you believing you had could'ves and should'ves...

First, please choose to know that you had no part in her choice to have an affair. That's hers. You have no control.

Next, read all you can on this website...the articles on recovering from an affair, emotional needs (ENs), love busters (LBs), boundaries, rules of marriage...The Love Bank.

You are not alone.

Next, choose to know that you do not have a friend...he's not. He wasn't. He chose to hurt you in the worst way...and he is not, nor was, your true friend.

Sounds like you have chosen to work on your marriage rather than divorce, is that correct?

I believe that's a great choice.

Ground rules for recovery are: First, No Contact...neither you nor your wife can have any contact (even visual) with OM (other man) the rest of your life. We advise your wife writing a letter which states she is married, loves her husband and is choosing to repair the damage she has done. That she will have no contact with OM again, ever.

This letter is important, as you can see, and once she writes it, you approve it and you walk together to mail it. Symbolic act.

You choose to snoop...monitor any chance of contact...even other friends talking about OM or giving information. Cut that off. These are actions you take to protect your marriage...new boundaries to enforce because you now realize how lack of boundary enforcements is dangerous to your relationships.

Your wife will go through a period of withdrawal...this isn't her mourning the loss of a real person, as she would for you; this is her mourning the loss of a fantasy. You need to know this as she goes through it because her choice to feed that fantasy, live in it, released a lot of chemicals in her brain and she will miss them.

Once she goes through withdrawal, she will be better able to know why she chose to have an A, what is in her, her own stuff, which made the affair possible, and how she can protect her marriage. Like coming out of a fog.

Then you both work on identifying and meeting ENs, eliminating LBs and practicing the rules of marriage.

For all the deep pain you are experiencing now, I can tell you first hand, building a new marriage rocks. I had no idea life could be this great...that relationships could be this rewarding and real...

You can get from here to later here...I promise. Learn a lot about yourself, your own intent and beliefs...you said you couldn't control your anger...and you can. If you choose to believe you cannot, then you are choosing to believe your wife, and any other human on the planet, cannot control her emotions, which leaves both of you unable to have a safe, fulfilling relationship.

Don't sink your boat...it's afloat...it's battered and has taken a severe hit...know it's afloat because you're here, you care and you're worth fighting for.

In your corner,

LA

I am so sorry for you. What a double betrayal. I think your wife is putting a spin on it. When a spouse is talking about marrying her OM then I seriously doubt that there was no intercours. She still is attracted to him and has emotional feelings. The fact that not only would she do this but that she would do this would a good friend of yours says a great deal. She knew how angry you were about going to dinner with him when you were out of town so she then gets physical with him that night? Again you are probably not being told the whole story.

Marriage counseling is a must and absolute NO Contact is essential. My question is why was she willing to risk her marriage with you? Why was she so confident that you were forgive her having an affair with a close friend of yours? Something is not right here. It seems she really disrespected and humiliated you in front of you. Only you can decide what you wish to do but I would insist that the both of you be tested for STD's. Again a wife would not get physical and cheat with a good friend of her husband, talk about marrying him and then say we got physical but no intercourse. If the roles were reversed do you honestly think your wife would believe this from you?

Thanks for the kind words LA. I need all this support. I choose to work on my marriage because I still trust my marriage and that there was a bump in the road, a monster bump, but this is the real test of our marriage and I'm not willing to throw the towel yet.
Was your experience similar?
to the forum at large, Has anybody been in my shoes before?
I know the pain is same whether wife has commited this act or husband, but I'm curious about other men out there who have been betrayed by their wives and backstabbed by their friend. How do you control your anger, rage and feeling of being laughed at?
I offered her the choice of writing a letter to him, she did not take that, to me she is still somewhat attached to him, although she's trying hard to work on the marriage as well. It is painful to watch that, but I guess important.
She seems very innocent, she says that she is also amazed how all this could happen and that she had no idea that her single act would lead to all this. But is she as innocent as she seem? Can she hurt me in future?
I dont even know why I'm looking for such answers when nobody knows future. I just dont want to be fooled again.
Thanks for all your encouragement LA, appreciate it.
D

At this point I do not have any reason to believe anything. Anything is a possibility, but do I know that she had an intercouse for sure? nope! Do I trust her, to some extent yes, but largely no.
I wish I had magic mirror where I can see everything that happened that night, and since then, but I dont.
That is why I want to hear from others who have been in my situation before, what have their experience been?
I appreciate all the comments I can get as that will really help me.
D

Welcome --

I come from a similar situation. My wife's first affair was with a friend of mine (we were both worked in our church's youth ministry). Neither of us is ordained or a pastor, I taught, he played guitar.

I considered him a friend (note the past tense). He and my wife developed an affair over a period of years. I discovered it myself (painful investigation).

To make matters worse, my other good friend, the youth pastor, eventually told me he can't counsel both of us (I understood) and chose to keep counseling him and referred me to a stranger (I didn't understand). So I feel as if I lost two friends to this mess.

I feel your pain and sense of double betrayal. It hurts. You have to question so much of your interaction with your friend and your wife.

Stop spending any more time on mourning the loss of friendship or thinking bad thoughts about him. He's not worth your time and effort or the saliva it would cost you to spit on him.

Regarding whether or not they had intercourse...I'm of the opinion that any physical contact, including deep kissing or oral sex or mutual masturbation, is as bad as intercourse. They participated in inappropriate physical contact with someone who was not their spouse. There is no real need to make the distinction between which bodily fluids were exchanged. The only importance is protecting yourself from any STD she might have contracted. If you haven't gotten yourself and her tested -- do so right away.

You need to get her to terminate contact. Even if you believe they are not in contact, she has to take the initiative to show you she means it.

She's in withdrawal. You must be vigiliant. I had to monitor my wife and the OM quite frequently over the months following D-Day. They continued to have contact and I had to get personally involved each time.

I didn't know about Marriage Builders then so I was flying by the seat of my pants.

If your wife is still with you then that's a good sign. You must read up on Plan A and Plan B. It's a tough line to walk doing Plan A (loving and helping her) while still taking a strong stance against her wayward behavior and withdrawal.

Keep praying. Keep posting.

Artor, thanks for sharing your experience. You are right, he doesnt deserve anything from me, the problem is my wife still think about him, and to some extent I am too, its hard to fathom that pain he has caused me. Even though I called him my friend there were things about him that disturbed me right from the beginning. He first agreed to marry his gf, they were seeing each other for 5 yrs, and then, when they told everybody about the marriage, he called quits. His reasons were - I dont believe in marriage, she doesnt need the commitment via an institution called marriage, and that he'd never be unfaithful to her, real radical thoughts. But when my wife told him about her feelings and later started discussing their future together, he promised her that he'd marry her. What a paradigm shift in philosphies, my wife doesnt see it that way because its her that he agreed for marrying, forgetting that he promised his gf that dream as well. He was also sleeping with another friend of ours (while still dating his gf) and my wife was suspicious about their relationship and asked about it, but he convinced her that even though this other friend has expressed interest in him, he has taken all precautions for her to not feel emotionally attached to him. I dont believe that a single bit, but my wife does. She thinks of him as this person who has opened doors of possibility for her and that he has been honest about his attitudes and emotions.
He met his gf (whom he promised marriage, never delivered, and actually sleeping with other common friend while having a post-marriage-promise relationship with his gf) by backstabbing another common friend.
So, I'm seeing a clear pattern of being dishonest with friends, backstabbing them, but my wife doesnt. She says one should be able to do what they want, as long as it is mutually agreeable. What a fog she's living in?
She even defends him whenever I bring the topic of how dishonest he has been, to me, to our friends.
My problem is getting over him and getting over what my wife has done to me. She has started to feel bad for what she has done, but is still attached to OM, withdrawal phase. I constantly tell her that I can understand she had an affair, but once she knows the facts about OM she should see who he really is, but she becomes very skeptical and starts suspecting me. She thinks that I'm angry at him and therefore creating this story, even though all our friends have turned their back on OM, they all realized and told my wife what a jerk he has been to his gf, to me, and other friends. She doesnt want to believe anybody.
I dont know why I want her to see the 'truth' about his guy so badly. I almost feel that if my wife could be such a poor judge of people in life that anybody could dupe her. May be she doesnt want to accept the fact that she got 'played on' by him, and that he used her, but I dont want her to live in this fantasy world either where he was Mr. Charming and she felt this 'connection' with him.
On top of that I have to deal with those mental images of her with him in our home doing it. Its painful to say the least.
I'm thinking about getting some real facts about this guy and show it to my wife, I dont know if that is wise? At this point its difficult to know what is right and what is not.
D

I am sorry but that is the deal breaker for me. The fact that she would bring him into your home while your were gone shows absolute distain for you and your marriage. The home is the one place that is totally off limits. It is the one place that should be safe and secure for you. Looking at your home would send a constant message how she defiled your marriage and your vows. Honestly I think there really has to be some sort of anger for a spouse to humiliate their spouse by bringing the OM into the home so they can play with each other while you are away. I doubt if the roles were reversed she would be so forgiving. I feel very sorry for you. What has been the consequences to her actions? Ask her what she would be thinking and feeling toward you if you brought another woman to your home for fun and games while she was away on a trip? You deserve better than this.

Shock I have been in your shoes ... as most here have.

First of all I'm sorry for your pain.

Secondly .. read everything you can here and then re read it. I do however have a couple of questions..

What does your wife want at the moment? Is she regrettful and wants to stay in the marriage? Does she continue seeing OM?

When you get the time, read WATS guide it is one of the first post on this board it will help.

Yes, you are right . . . she's in fog.

Remember, as stunned as you are about how bad a judge of people your wife can be, your wife is equally as stunned by her own actions.

To some extent, she's facing the truth that she's been duped and not anything special to this guy -- just another piece of tail in a long line of sweet words, charming lies and betrayal. Her world is spinning, too.

This does not excuse her actions -- not in any way.

However, the enemy here is not your wife, it's not even this guy at this point.

The enemy is the affair and the damage it has introduced to your lives.

As Lost&Confussed pointed out, there are questions to be answered.

1. Do you want your marriage to continue?
2. Does your wife want your marriage to continue?
3. Does she still have contact with the OM? If so, why?

Your wife will continue to live in fog until she stops ALL CONTACT with the OM.

Perhaps there are some other people closer to the OM to whom exposure is necessary. Maybe not -- your call.

If you can't "incentivize" him to stay away from your wife, then perhaps your friends can help convince him to stay away.

To follow the Marriage Builder's plan, your wife has to put a "No Contact" letter in writing, have you approve it, and send it together to the OM. It should be short, to the point and perfectly clear that she does not wish further contact. If you wife agrees to this you may want to look into stalking and electronic stalking laws in your area and see if there is a legal avenue to pursue if he continues to contact your wife. I investigated this and when I shared it with my wife it woke her up a bit.

I would not waste effort on showing your wife why he's a loser and not worth the time it takes to think his name.

You need to show her that you and your marriage are worth more to her than he will ever be. You need to show her that she is worth more to you than she will ever be worth to him. She needs to see the results of your Plan A.

She will come out of the fog. But before she does, she may say and do things she'll regret. The tough part of Plan A is continuing to love her in spite of the things she says about the OM and you. She's trying to assimilate the "fantasy" of her affair into every day life and it's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It just doesn't fit and until she decides to put the square peg down and move on with reality, she'll need your patience and love.

You will continue to have triggers and flashbacks to include mental images of what they might have done. It is important that you recognize these as destructive and not helpful to recovery. Over time, as your wife comes out of her fog, she will recognize when you are in a funk about the affair and will hopefully support you.

It's a fine line the betrayed spouse has to walk. On the one hand, we have to be supportive of the wayward spouse, doing our best Plan A and trying to help them move forward. At the same time, we are struggling with our own recovery to solid ground and sometimes need help ourselves.

You and your wife need to get to counseling. Individual counseling for each and Marriage counseling together. It really does help.

I'm sorry this response is so long, but I encourage you to take specific questions to the General Questions II board. It gets more traffic and you have the benefit of people much wiser and experienced than I am. We will all continue to support you and your wife and answer your questions.

Blessings.

Artor, your assessment is right on about many things. I do recognize that having those mental images are detrimental to the progress, especially when I bring them up to her, she says that she is deeply sorry and is shocked by her own actions but that she can not do anything about those mental images.
I do understand that I have to reconcile them myself.
I do want my marriage to work, although I am not sure if she wouldnt repeat this again.
She also wants to work on the marriage and understands that it was an unrealistic world she was living in. However, she does think that her feelings were 'real', and that there is nothing wrong with having those feelings, and that his feelings were 'real' too, and no matter what anybody else says about him, he is still the person she thinks he is for her.
She told me that all contacts with the OM has been terminated, and even though we live in the same city and she goes to work everybody from where she used to call him on regular basis, she might be still doing it since its very safe (unless she decides to disclose it to me I will not know about it). I dont know for sure whether she's still in touch with him, her cell-ph never showed his number because she never used it, but I know that she used her office ph to stay in touch with him. How do I monitor that number? or her office email? She will not tell me if she's in touch with him because she knows how much angry I get and she doesnt like dealing with those emotions of mine.
I asked her to write a NC before but she said that she was not comfortable writing it, especially if I'm going to review and approve it. She expressed her desire in the past to have a final one-to-one ph call or meeting with the OM that I strongly declined, she says that she mainly wants to know if she really got played on by him. The obvious thing is that he's not going to reveal that dark side to her, if anything he would try to let her know how much 'real' his feelings were, and that will justify her conviction in him even more. May be I will bring up the idea of letter again.
This whole experience has created a very low self-esteem in me, and my confidence is shaken up, glimpses of which she sees from time to time. I used to be a very confident person but not anymore. You're absolutely correct that BS has to walk a thin line of not only supporting WS but also taking care of their own emotions. I've never taken anti-depressants but I wonder if they'd help me manage my own emotions better.
I want to know about you more, how you coped with it, how long ago it happened, how are you guys doing now.
Thanks again for your support.
D

Lost&Confused, I have posed those questions to her and she is on board regarding working on the marriage, she also says that she is not seeing the OM currently (there is no "sure" way to know about this unless she reveals it to me). At this point she is in withdrawal phase and is going through emotions for both me (most of the time) and him (seldom). So we are making progress.
I'm trying to overcome the feeling of betrayal from my friend, and that is a battle that I have to fight myself, she can not help in that, and its hard, painful, and slow.
I want to overcome what he did to me but sometime he just enters in my fears, dreams, and thoughts so easily and starts destroying everything inside me.
I'm yet to come in terms with that, but one day I will.
Thanks for all your support

She will not tell you when she has contact with the OM because she knows it will make you angry? What is wrong with this picture? Following this logic she could say I will not tell you when I get physical with another man because I know it would make you angry? No contact and truth and honesty is absolutely essential. Withholding information from you if and when she contacts the OM can only bring insecurity toward you. If the roles were reversed and you told your wife that if and when I have contact with my ex affair partner I will not tell you because I know it will hurt you; what do you think her response would be? If you feel that your wife refuses to be totally honest with you about contact with the OM then I simply do not see how your self-esteem and insecurity could possibly recover. She still doesen't get it.

"shockofmylife", I see a log of my experience reflected in what's happening to you know. The OM was not my best friend, but the situation had quite a few similarities otherwise (OM sleeping was engaged, sleeping around with other women, WW saw OM as a "good friend" (if not best friend), etc.). All I can suggest is that you can't make her see OM for what he really is while she's still in fog-land, and you're probably going to push her even further away from you if you try. Instead, act as the "lighthouse" for your W - show her how good life could be when involved in a healthy M with you. Eventually the fog will clear and she will come to her senses - I guarantee that.

I feel for you. I have been there and in many cases am still working through these issues as well.

Your wife needs to come to the realization that she has broken trust. She has to be the one to work at rebuilding it. Part of that, as it is spelled out on this site, is called transparency. This means that she needs to give you unfettered access to her email accounts, cell phone, voice mail, etc. You need to know that you can check these whenever you want.

Will she have a hard time with this? Possibly. My wife certainly has. But it is necessary for her to show you she is hiding nothing. Does this mean you will have access to all possible contact methods? No. She could still be contacting him. You need to enlist friends and co-workers to help her stay away from him and keep him away from her.

Eventually, she will most likely come to see this as a good thing, however, in her continued fantasy world, it will make you a bad guy.

The no contact is a non-negotiable item in the Marriage Builders process. The means by which it happens (letter, phone call, etc) is not as important as it happening. I believe the letter is the best since there is no opportunity for a response or dialog. It should be one-sided.

A few things I think are important:

1. It should be a definitive statement of your wife's desire to never have ANY contact with him EVER AGAIN.

2. You need to either approve the letter or be party to the conversation. It cannot be done in secret with you "taking her word for it".

3. The no contact should not ramble on about feelings or questions or accusations. Those are in the past.

Self-esteem is a tough one. I struggle there as well, dude.

I am not into medication and other board members might have better advice. I suggest you post a question on the "General Questions II" board regarding AD meds.

It will take a while for you to recover some sense of self-respect and esteem. You need to do things for yourself to help this process along. Your wife will eventually help in rebuilding your esteem, but right now, she sounds like she's still swimming in fog.

Blessings.

Bry,
She says that if the roles were reversed she would do the same as I am, but she also admits that she is just focusing on herself, her emotions, and her needs right now, and even though she knows and understands that I am going through deep emotional pain, she can not think of me. I know once the fog lifts she'll come back with full emotional desire to me but at this point she is not with me 100%, and she admits it.
She says that she is completely transparent, I believe her, or may be I want to believe her, but dont. I just dont want my distrust in her become a hindrance in our progress.
Everyday is better then yesterday though, and I'm glad about that.
Thanks for your comments

MIM, I have started to realize that the more I try her to see who the OM really is, the more she thinks the other way. I have to stop doing that, and to a large extent I have limited that already.
I'd like to know more about your experience as well, how you resolved such emotional issues. As usual, there are lot of things and questions that I find myself entangled in without having any real answers.
Any help is appreciated
D

I'm probably not the best person to give you advice here. Recognizing what the problem is is not the same as resolving the problem, though it's the first step in the process.

My FWW and I had communication problems before, during and after her A. We will continue to have problems, though I think things are getting better (slowly). But we didn't do the best job of the recovery process, and it's affecting us even now. I'd hesitate to tell you therefore exactly what we did. Instead, I'll concentrate on the things that worked.

I would suggest a few things: Concentrate on being that "light-house" for your WW. Remove the "love-busters" that you're bringing to the M (if you can't identify them yourself, talk to your WW). Get a copy of "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, and "Surviving An Affair" by Williard Harley - encourage (but don't force!) your WW to read them. Give her time and space to come to the realization of what she's done. And work on yourself - make sure that your self-esteem is not tied up and dependent on what a foggy WW thinks of you. Demonstrate that you're an attractive person to be with, period. Make time to be with your WW (at least two hours) every day, but avoid turning the chat to the heavy relationship stuff. And follow the guide at the top of this forum <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I have been dealing with some personal stuff lately and although I wanted to come back to this website to ask questions and discuss issues I just was too entagled in day-to-day.
My wife and I are making slow progress, and as time goes by somethings improve but there are other things that crop up. Some of them are figment of your imaginations while others are created for you by others.
My wife's is coming out of her affair with OM (who happened to be my close friend) and since she never got a chance to end the affair (it ended as soon as she told me about it), she feels that something didnt go well about the whole thing. So now, she asks me (in a very cautious tone) to mend my relationship with my friend and that why can't everyhting could go back to 'normal' again. Which, when translated to plain english is - "Why cant we all forget this and make amends and start our lives the way it was again". And even though she says that she doesnt want any more romantic relationsihp with OM, she does long for his company and that things are not the same without him. This is very troubling to me. On one hand I'm trying to come out of my wife's A and my friend backstabbing me, on the other hand my wife still 'desires' to relive the whole experience which created the affair to begin with.
These are creating big doubts in my mind about her approach towards marriage, commitment, trust etc. and whether she would learn anything from this. She already feels that she did something wrong by going outside the marriage but that her 'feelings' were 'real' and how could something so real be so 'wrong'.
I'm getting depressed day by day and started to really think more and more about getting seperation from her. I know its not working according to the Plan A but that's where I am and needed some guidance.
Thanks
D

D,

Your wife is in withdrawal...not completely out of the fog...she does not understand that her choice to have an A changed lives...yours, hers, the marriage and the relationship with xBF (OM).

In time, as she gets it was a fantasy and not real, she will understand that no contact for the rest of your lives is a true consequence of breaking your vows to the marriage.

Lots of destruction and damage. Listen and repeat what she says with choice...

"I hear you believe right now that we will be able to forget you chose to have an A, that you can make amends, and that either you or I can ever see OM again, is that correct?"

No arguing...just clarify what you hear her say and hand it back...you can't cure her of the fog...but time and her choice to have ended it when she told you, will get her to see reality again, I promise.

This is part of the wayward script...please choose not to believe as she does...stay where you know this is a usual response...for now...if the A was over a year, withdrawal can take a few months...and if I remember correctly, some of the A was in your wife's mind for quite awhile before communicating it to OM, is that correct?

Do you believe in mending your relationship with your xfriend? Or do you believe that the way to have a recovered marriage is no contact for life with OM?

You can choose to be troubled by withdrawal or identify why she feels things aren't the same (THEY AREN'T--SHE STOPPED HAVING AN AFFAIR AND IS IN DRUG WITHDRAWAL FROM IT) and longs for him...and KNOW this is withdrawal from fantasy (don't have to make her know it)...mourning a loss...even a fantasy one...takes time...not a lot of it...and the more you buy into her truth, the harder, more painful it will be for you...she can't see clearly right now...you can...listen and repeat her stuff back to her. It's hers. Right now. Not forever.

She cannot know your pain yet...because she can't see clearly what she and he chose to do...takes time to get there...just like drugs...screw up reality...be patient with yourself...You stay out of the fog and know reality...your own truth...it's okay that they don't jive with hers right now...sure didn't during her A...won't be for awhile...and she chose you.

Is that what you'd do, SOL, ask a drug addict about their level of commitment to marriage, love, life? Would you believe their answers? Or would you rather know their truth when they are free of the drug, out of withdrawal?

Know where your control ends and stay present...best way through withdrawal...don't go into the future or the past in your mind...stay in the right now. You'll feel more depressed, sadder, angrier and more pain as you dwell in the should'ves or shouldn'ts...not a healthy place to be as you're still the reality pin in your marriage, for right now.

Look at your true goal...and know it, live from it, and do give yourself permission to waffle on it...can't do both...protect yourself from a thriving marriage or have one...choose...we'll support you. Either way. Don't straddle that decision, rethink or doubt it, otherwise, you are stabbing your own self through indecision and conflicting beliefs you are doing to yourself.

You're not alone. Withdrawal sucked...was necessary...where WS get from the "real feeelings" to seeing it for real feelings coming from a fantasy...real because they feel the same; not real because the relationship wasn't. A's aren't.

LA