pre-marital cheating has a very straight-forward solution

break up with them, don't stay to try & fix things

pre-marital cheating is a huge RED FLAG not to be ignored ~~~> GET AWAY I AM NOT READY TO BE FAITHFUL TO YOU ... those who ignore a HUGE pre-marital RED FLAG are not going to receive unlimited compassion from me, because they volunteer to be with a known cheater

married adultery is not as easily remedied ... and there is a huge impact on society as a whole when marriages are broken

I do not look at this from the perspective of >>> "who has more hurt/pain?" ... but from the perspective of holding married people to a higher standard

and I reject totally your opinion that this higher standard makes me less compassionate than you

MY higher standard for marriage kept ME from committing adultery both physical and emotional ! Your standard did not protect your marriage, perhaps because you equate "going steady" with the same importance as marriage. Who knows?

My marriage standard is not "going steady" ... not even close.

And, speaking frankly, your ability to undermine another marriage and not apologize to the OM's wife , to me speaks volumes about the limits of your own compassion for other married women.

Pep

Hmmm… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> this solution is not so straight-forward in situations where there are children involved e.g. where children was born from a long-term relationship outside marriage…and in cases where the partners who are living together has already established a life together and are bonded by a lot of things e.g. emotionally, materially (for example, has bought a home together) etc.

I don’t think its necessarily a case of ignoring the pre-marital red flag (I think this is rarely the case). In fact, I’m sure most of the time the betrayed partner in such a relationship is painfully aware of this, but obviously it’s not so easy to leave someone you’ve learned to love & care for…and to give up the relationship & person just like that…especially not in a long-term relationship where someone has already invested in the person emotionally and otherwise…and I do think a compassionate person should have at least understanding & empathy for that…

Of course.

I understand this…but the fact that married people must be hold to a higher standard (with which I 100% agree with), doesn’t mean that one can’t at least show compassion, understanding and empathy for the hurt/pain of the person who are betrayed outside marriage…

I never said you are less compassionate than me… In fact, I never mentioned you, me or anyone else in the post/quote above… I was speaking in general and mentioned the tendency towards betraying partners outside marriage I've witnessed on these boards lately… However, you have decided to make it personal and tried to “fit the shoe”.

Pep, firstly, I don't know where you get the idea from that I equate "going steady" with the same importance as marriage becaue it's not the case AT ALL. My marriage standard is not even close to “going steady” as well. What a totally absurd assumption/judgment to make about me! Anyway, please read the following from my previous post where I've made this clear:

“Of course cheating after M is much more serious (because marriage is a sacred and holy union; promises were made in front of the altar and witnesses etc.),”

You chose to left out the above important part of my previous post (which happen to be in the same sentence as the part you quoted me from in your post). Why did you left it out?

Secondly, the fact that you didn’t commit adultery in your M doesn’t make you any better than me or show that you hold a higher standard for marriage than me Pep… As far as I recall, you practiced pre-marital sex and lived a promiscuous life…in other words, you were guilty of fornication! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Fornication and adultery are both sinful and wrong in God’s eyes you know…the one is not a greater and more serious sin than the other so I is/was not a greater sinner than you (according to God's standards and not necessarily men’s standards).

Anyway, for me, sex goes together with the holy and sacred communion between two people and I've always respected, still respect and will always respect sex as something sacred which belong in marriage and between marriage partners only. I had the chance and temptation to practice pre-marital sex many times with a guy I had a serious relationship with for 4 years (I’ve even got engaged with this guy). This guy put great pressure on me to have sex with him…but I did not do it because I hold such a high standard for marriage that I decided to keep sex for marriage where it belongs.

Also, I hold such a high standard for marriage that, in spite of the fact that I ‘fell in love’ with another man (something which happened unwittingly and was not planned or a conscious choice) I never acted on those feelings physically in any way in spite of the fact that I experienced huge temptations/urges to do so and in spite of the fact that I had opportunities to do so… And back in 2002 - when I’ve became aware of these inappropriate feelings for the first time - I backed off from OM instinctively and by will…because of my high standard for marriage (amongst other things). And the fact that I finally admitted these feelings to him 3 months ago with the e-mail exchanges, happened in a moment of weakness…in a moment where I’ve made a very wrong and terrible choice for which I take full responsibility. However, it didn’t happen because I don’t hold a high standard for marriage.

If someone holds a high standard for marriage it doesn’t mean that such a person might never fail and make wrong choices... Everyone is fallible and every person can fail, make mistakes and wrong choices...in spite of high standards. It’s not the wrong choices and mistakes which define us…it’s how we grow and learn from those mistakes. I immediately took corrective steps after those e-mails e.g. confessed to my H & send the NC letter and therefore resisted the temptation and restrained myself from becoming further involved with OM and further violate his and my M. And I feel proud of myself for that in spite of the wrong choices I've made prior to that... And part of the reason I did this & took corrective steps is because of my high standard for marriage and myself.

And pep, please don’t put yourself on a high horse and think you’re better than FWS’s because YOU have not committed adultery both physical and emotional. IMO, given the right circumstances, any of us are capable of any sin. The Bible says, ”Don’t be so naive and self-confidant. You’re not exempt. You could fall flat on your face as easily as anyone else”. Very true… I've leared these words to be true the HARD way!

Really??? If you believe this about me Pep, why then have you posted me THIS POST and said you totally understand my position after I’ve tried to explain my situation and reasons for not exposing to OMW to you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Please answer...

I can attest to this.

Three months before my wedding, I found suggestive pictures of my friend in my husband's briefcase. My red flags were WAY up, but he had an excuse and I loved him so much I wanted to believe it.

Fifteen years later, our marriage is a huge mess. I wish I had walked away then, but now we have two children to think about.

You are right, Pep, but I wish you could have some compassion for people like me too.

I did a Plan A as a fiancee- how is that so different than a Plan A as a wife?

P.S. My Plan A didn't work.

P.P.S. Messdup- I know you're lurking- please comment here. I'd like to know your thoughts on this topic.

[b]This is also known as FORNICATION ... as you have correctly pointed out. Are you saying FORNICATION is not FORNICATION if there are children involved?

I do understand your position. I understand your reasons for betraying another woman's marriage as well as your own.

I disagree with what you have decided, but I do understand why you betrayed another woman, more than once. Your decision was detrimental to someone else, and benifited you. It's straight forward. And I do understand.

When I spoke of "limits" I mean that exactly. You have LIMITED compassion up to the point where you might yourself have to sacrifice the safety of your job.

It's understandable. but, I do not admire that choice.

Pep

You said I am making an assumption... here


Prior to that, you said ... this:


[b]going steady is DATING

if "going steady" exclusivity is not kept ... this is NOT a serious offense on the same magnitude as adultery in a marriage

it is a change of mind in a DATING situation

it hurts like heck

and it is an indicator that this "steady date" is probably NOT a good match ... it is NOT so indicative that the "cheater" has low character or might not be a wonderful non-cheating spouse to someone else

Pep

First Plan A while dating/engaged
were you living together?

Pep

LOL "high horse"



[b]My "high horse" issues are:

being lectured by you on compassion when you have SHOWN no compassion for your victim, the OM's wife

it was/is YOUR "high horse" that got me up on mine ~LOL~

if you think that I think I am immune from the dangers of flirting/secrets in my marriage ... I appreciate your concern for my well being ... thanks to this site, I am very aware of my vulnerabilities ... and my guard is UP ... thanks

Pep

Yes, we were. We had a three year engagement, and lived together for the last year. The church and reception hall were booked, I had purchased my wedding gown, we had written our vows. My husband's affair happened in year 2 of the engagement, and I found the pictures 6 months later. He confessed the PA to me last month.

Here is the thread (is it the one Suzet was referring to?)

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3082482

so, you did not marry him KNOWING he had cheated during the engagement

correct?

Pep

Correct, Pep. I suspected an EA but had no idea it had been a physical affair.

I wrote all about the discovery of those pictures in my journal. I wrote that I went to the bible, and read about "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." It was part of our planned wedding service.

After praying about it and crying a lot, I chose actively to believe his story (lie).

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I wish it had been so simple- to RUN AWAY then. Instead, I considered our relationship as a pre-marriage agreement, so I chose to stay and work it out.

Today, I think I made a mistake. My husband (Messdup) asks me to look at our two beautiful boys, and hopes tomorrow I will see it differently.

Saturn, well at least you went into it with open eyes and knew what to expect and can't complain about the expected result. I realize that doing the right thing would not have been simple [it never is] but neither is it simple living through an affair, especially with 2 innocent kids who didn't sign on for it.

I ruined my life, my husband's life, and the lives of my future (now actual) children by choosing to love and forgive Messdup.

And I can't even complain about it. But my story can serve as a warning to others... this is my hope

I also hope I'm smarter in my next life.

SR, here is the beauty of it all, though. You really can turn lemons into lemonade. I did the same as you and CHOSE to turn a blind eye to OBVIOUS, APPARENT red flags and married my H when I knew better. The only person I could blame was the lady in the mirror when my bad judgment returned the inevitable result.

When I was dating him, I saw several things that should have alerted any thinking woman, but CHOSE to ignore them. This is no excuse, but my judgment was so impaired from devastating traumatic events that I did not want to see the truth. I paid dearly for MY CHOICE.

But that doesn't mean I have to continue to pay dearly. My marriage has experienced a dramatic turnaround as a result of Marriage Builders and God's influence in my H's life. He is not the same sleazy man who cheated on me the first 6 months of our marriage.

I admire the fact that you take full responsibility for your choices. That is the first step in making real changes. And I want to give you some hope that it is very possible to turn such a tragically bad decision into a wonderful life.

Thank you Melody, for showing me the possibilities.

ditto Mel

"I ruined my life, my husband's life, and the lives of my future (now actual) children by choosing to love and forgive Messdup."

Wrong.

Wrong because your life and your children's lives are not ruined. Damaged, yes. Hurt, yes. Ruined, no.

The statement is also wrong because it was not your decision to forgive, but your decision to live in denial that set your marriage up for future problems. As MelodyLane said, that was your choice. And it was mine, too. It cost us both dearly.

It took me a long time to rip the blinders off and look, really look, at my husband, myself and my marriage. In fact, it was my 20th wedding anniversary that made me do it. Very painful to face those problems that had been there all along. But not nearly as painful and damaging as not facing them had been.

When the denial ended, the possibility of a real marriage began.

It can be the same for you.

Dear SaturnRising,

loving and forgiving NEVER ruins anything.
Not being careful about boundaries does.

Interesting you have named yourself SaturnRising.
A planet that represents strict boundaries, with its limitations as well.

I hope you'll find Venus positively aspecting your Saturn soon.
Venus alone could not give you and your M enough strength/backbone..
Saturn helps with that...
Guess we need'em both <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

If you're not into astrology then forget about my mumbo jumbo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually this is not accurate... someone on that thread... and he was supported basically said that any woman that is not married is free game. That opinion was supported by quite a few posters.