Hi.

I don’t usually start threads, and I hate asking for help, but I’m a bit stuck and maybe someone can get me to see things from a different vantage point.

I’ll offer facts about my situation if anyone thinks they need to know, I’ll start here:

FWS: ME
FBS: Her
2 young kids.
Both work long hours.
Short Affair 5 years ago.
M 10 yrs.



O.K. let’s start with this: our life is pretty stressful. We do not spend the 15 hours together alone. We’ve tried, but it just doesn’t seem to happen. Once the kids are to bed, she is off to do her things and I’m off to sit and brood. It could be that I’m off to do my thing and she is the one that feels ignored, but I don’t see it that way. Either way this is the way things seem to happen.

We don’t communicate very well. Neither of us are really comfortably with emotional conversations. “Just the facts Mam,” is the norm around our house. Actually, we don’t really talk much. She is seldom home, and when she gets home I know that I’m probably a bit irritated, especially when she “forgets” to tell me that she is going to be home late. So I’m sure this just makes it so she doesn’t want to come home . . . who want to come home to an angry spouse? So even if I feel a bit irritated, I try to act like I’m not, which doesn’t help. The fact is I can’t talk to her and I just don’t know how to do so. When we do talk it very quickly degenerates into bickering . . . I think she feels that I am going to be upset with her no matter what she does/says so she might as well do what makes her happy. That is pretty rational behavior I guess.

Jeez . . . this is sounding pretty depressing, but it is my life. I’ll get to the point. . . I think I have one. I am getting to the point that I feel like bailing from this marriage. If I wasn’t so attached to the kids I would have probably left around when I had my affair. I know most FWS say such things, but I guess I believe this self-talk. Anyway, the issues that we had pre-affair and still here, except now I feel that I have lost the right to make my needs known because of the A. There certainly is a power imbalance now, and it isn’t a lot of fun being the one that is now unworthy. I’m know it wasn’t a lot of fun for her to be the BS either. She still brings up the A . . . it was short lived and has been over for many years. I’ve apologized, I’ve answered all the questions that she has asked, I don’t hide things from her, etc. We did go to counseling for a while and I guess things got better, we were more pleasant to each other and she spent a little more time at home, but now, it is back to the way it was. The counselor said that it appears to her that we are both living separate lives, but we happen to be married to each other. . . that we don’t behave like a couple, but as individuals, I agree, but don’t know how to change it.

My last little issue here is SF. My W is fairly shy and reserved. If there is sex, 99% of the time I’m the one that starts it. If I don’t start it, it doesn’t happen. She says that she can take it or leave it. I believe her. Like a lot of men I read about on here, it is the main way that I bond with my W. Many of the other issues don’t seem to matter when we are engaged in this manner. What is starting to scare me is that I’m initiating less and less, and I am missing it less and less.

I guess I would be lonely if I divorced, but I would be a different kind of lonely. Feeling lonely in a marriage is miserable.

Before you ask, there is no OW in my life at all. In fact, there really isn’t anyone in my life at all except my family. I’ve given up my hobbies as they interfered with taking care of the kids. My wife works really screwy hours, and my job is somewhat flexible, so I am the one that is usually on call. I don’t mind, I like spending time with my kids.

Maybe I’m just getting old and this is the way life is . . . it just feels so . . . bad most of the time.

O.K. I'm done with the pity-party.

No way - as you are finding out, you can't have any sort of decent marriage if someone's ENs are not being met.

Have the two of you filled out the Emotional Needs Q? Do you know hers and does she know yours?
Mulan

Mulan,

Yes I filled out mine, she had her's on the dresser for a very long time . . . and then it vanished.

I think I can guess her's: Financial Support, and Domestic Support are way up there . . . I do pretty good with both of those. I don't really know about the rest. . . perhaps affection? I think SF is pretty low on her list.

We are both conflict avoiders to the nth so, since she didn't fill out the questionaire . . . I just let it go.

Comfortably Numb,

So sorry for what you're going through. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? No? Well then, here goes . . .

1. You said and Can you describe how she spends her time -- whether it's at home after the kids have gone to bed, or outside the home?

2. You said Would she be correct in thinking that? Are you upset no matter what she does or says?

3. What are her 5 most important emotional needs?

4. What are you doing on a daily and consistent basis to fill those needs?

5. How old are you and your wife?

2 words my friend

radical honesty

get 'er done!

Pep

CN, I read your post in its entirety, and when I finished, the first thing that came to mind is that you and your W are trying to have an M without each of you making a conscious investment to keep it running smoothly. As a result, you are withdrawing from each other.

You're a guy, which means we're more attuned to solving problems rather than bitching about them :-). You've outlined several problems in your M. What you haven't outlined is what you're trying to do to resolve them. So, what are you doing?

I'd like to hear about how you're trying to resolve the communication issue (it's something that badly affected my M as well, and I didn't realise how bad until my FWW confessed to her A). For example, it takes TWO to "bicker" - have you tried to figure out how you contribute to making communication between the two of you go downhill like that?

I'm sorry you are feeling this way and the state of your M is not what you both would like.
Talk to your wife. Tell her that you are feeling a need to share more of yourself with her... your time and your love.
When she goes off to do some of her own things..make a suggestion for something you can do together.
How about a couples retreat where you learn to connect on all levels to the woman you love.
Meet her emotional needs.... and feel free enough to express your own.
Make her something special for dinner...with candles...flowers and a card.
Date her. Pick her favorite place and take her there.
Plan a trip together.... make it a surprise....when she gets home from work on Friday, have the kids off with family and both your bags already packed for a nice romantic weekend. Surprise her with not only the trip... but the destination.
Be the one to thaw the ice between you everyday...swallow your pride for a while and the reap the benefits of your love for one another.
Send her an email at work and simply tell her you love her...nothing more.
Schedule a massage/manicure/pedicure for her.

Hey, these are all just random thoughts of things you could do for her that are just for her... but really pay big dividends for you too. Court your wife everyday in some manner... not all of them need to be big... and I believe that there suddenly will be more time spent together, more SF, more love and ,more happiness.

Good luck,

MEDC

Curious,

I'm probably mostly the cause for the state of my marriage, I had the affair you know.

Some answers.

1. She has a myriad of hobbies . . . some she does at home, some outside the home. She have a studio and spends a lot of time in there, I have a woodshop where I spend mine.

2. When she comes home after 10:00pm and I expected her for dinner and she hasn't called, I do tend to get a bit miffed. I used to call her, but she doesn't answer her cell very often, so I quit. Maybe I'm just passive agressive. The kids get a bit ansy if they haven't seen Mommy before bed. I am not a screamer and don't give her grief, I'm sure she can tell that I'm not happy though . . . I'm a reall bad liar.

3. I don't really know. She likes money. She likes to buy stuff. She likes it that I take care of the kids, do all the cooking . . . that kind of thing.

4. Well, I took a new position that is outside my field simply because it pays very well. She liked that. I do most of the domestic chores and what I don't do the maid does.

5. Young 40's.

Okay, CN, it seems like you could have pretty much written my whole life story except that I am the BS. With two earner families and kids and all the other crap that we have to deal with, I think it is a real challenge for most of us to have the 15 hours per week UA. Wish we could all change that but...is life. However, I picked up a couple of things in your post that hopefully will help you and maybe I can even follow my own prescription:

1) What time you do have for UA, neither of you appear to be connecting at all. Not good for either of you and one of you has to take the lead and make quality time and communication a priority. How about trying to make just one hour a week that both of you could discuss anything that is on your mind...plans for next week, what is bothering you, kids activities, whatever. Just have some boundaries for these discussions so that they are productive instead of counterproductive.

2) Even after forgiveness, resentment for your actions from the BS's perspective is a powerful poison that works to undermine the recovery efforts. This is an issue that I really struggle with and I wish that I had advice for your BW on this...but what I do know is that if she feels like that you and her are not on an equal basis in the relationship then it will thwart your efforts on recovery to a new more intimate relationship. If you feel like that she is holding the A over your head and using it against you, you must communicate that feeling with her and work with her to try to resolve that. As a BS, an assurance that my WS was going to continue to work to make things better would go a long ways towards me letting go of my resentment...but this is still a personal shortfall that I as the BS have to recognize and work through, regardless of what my spouse does from this point.

I am not sure if this information makes you more confused or helps some but at least this is how that I have decided to confront very similar issues in my own R. Right or wrong, the WS cannot undo what has been done in the past. The BS has to find a way to move past this and focus on the future. Everyone agrees on that but be compassionate for your wife as it is easier said than done.

Pep,

Radical Honest . . . oh . . . who wants to be that bare and out there with their; heart hanging out just waiting to be stompped?

I know what you say is right, I just don't see it happening. When I'm "honest" with her she sees me finding fault with her . . . even if I only use "I" statements.

I think that we both look for criticisms in each other's words . . . we just know it has to be there somewhere. I think that deep down we are just bad at relationships. . .



MiM.

Yep. Communication. We stink at it. We know it. We tried counseling to fix it. I think we would both just rather do something else and that is what we usually end up doing.

MEDC,

Thanks for the comments. I like your ideas. I know I could do some of them and make her feel happy. . . at least for a fleeting moment. The problem is I'm losing the drive to make her feel happy. That is another thing that is scaring me a bit.

I completely disagree

you're a smart man

try reading

Schnarch's

Passionate Marriage

you are in a natural & EXPECTED gridlock of marriage

completely solvable without a divorce including & especially the SEX issue!!!!

read it aloud with your wife ... 30 minutes every evening ... your "communication" will be interesting (to say the least)

this is NOT dire ... this is the usual & expected dry mid-marriage duldrom

shake things up!

Pep

nottoday,

I have compassion for anyone who has/had a cheating spouse. . .

Let me answer your questions.

1. Yes, I could make a date. I've done this. When I ask what she would like to do I just get that blank stare . . . so I just pick something. We do talk about practical matters . . . child care . . . activities . . . that sort of thing.

2. I know that this isn't a popular believe, and it probably is a pretty damaging one, but I don't think that power ever returns to equality after an affair. If my wife want to "win" an argument . . . she just droppes the "A" bomb and I usually capitulate and just shut up. . . obviously the affair was a lot worse than what I'm complaing about and she is still here . . . that kind of thing.

I expect resentment because of what I did. I don't really expect forgiveness either. It is a he11 of a lot to forgive if you really ponder it.

Pep,

your H is a lucky man.

I don't think you know how rare you . . . and wives like you . . . really are. I know there are wives that enjoy SF . . I read about them all the time here . . . but when I talk to my married friends, to my colleagues, I sure get the feeling that my marriage is pretty similar to theirs. Or maybe they have a fantastic sex life and just want to keep it hush hush to not depress me . . . No . . . if they had it they would brag a bit I think.

There is no way my wife would sit there and listen to me read that book to her. We were given a copy of The Joy of Sex as a wedding present . . . pretty thoughtful I thought . . . my wife rolled her eyes and the book went under the bed and that is were it probably still is. She just isn't interested in it that often . . . it could be I just don't do it for her . . . I certainly entertain that possibility.

The part about all this that has me bothered is that I am beginning to not really care about have SF with my wife anymore. I'm not really that old . . . I just don't know . . . Oh life, you precious gem.

Comfortably Numb:

I'm not sure why you opened with this.

Can you say more about how she spends her time? All you've given me are "hobbies" and her "studio." That could cover hundreds of thousands of different things, each with its own implications. What are the hobbies that take most of her time? Which ones take her time when she's home? Which ones keep her out of the house?

I’m still not entirely clear on the picture here. I can understand being upset that she’s late and didn’t call. But I think your initial post indicated that she doesn’t call because you’re going to be upset anyway. But more important, I’m trying to figure out if you’re upset no matter what she says or does in any situation, any time of the day or night, or simply when she’s not home for dinner.

Dude, you've got to do a better job figuring out her MIEN. Your observations suggest that Domestic Support and Financial Security [I might have the label wrong] are on the list, which is possible. But even if you’re right about those two, you seem to have no clue about the other three. You need to find out what her needs really are, and how she likes to have them filled. I'll give you two options:

1. Fill out the EN questionnaire, pretending to be her. Don’t pretend to be her now. Pretend to be the woman you married. I suspect the behaviors she exhibits now are partly influenced by your current relationship and thus not reliable indicators of her innate emotional needs. Then come back and tell us specifically what her 5 MIEN seem to be.

2. Say to her: "You know, I've been thinking a lot lately that I'm probably not a lot of fun to live with these days. It must seem to you like whatever you say or do, I get upset. I've decided that I realy need to be a better husband to you. One of the ways I want to do that is to find out what your needs are, and to become a specialist in meeting those needs. Would you consider filling out a questionnaire to help me focus my energies on the right things and not waste effort doing things that really aren't important to you?" Notice that it’s really a “Just the facts, ma’am” kind of request – should be well within both your and your wife’s comfort zone.

Now, if you choose #2, you'll need to make a noticeable effort to show her that you mean what you say and that it's not a brain fart. So you'll need to refer to the fact that you're trying to be a better husband on other occasions as well, and you'll probably have to remind her to do the questionnaire more than once (keeping all hint of nagging out of your tone -- your tone should instead reflect your hopeful optimism that you can become the man of her dreams once you are armed with the right information).

no

this book is NOT like the Joy Of Sex

this is a relationship book like no other

if you can't get her to read it willingly ... YOU read it, and then start laughing and say "Listen to this".... then read some to her ... make it fun!

your approach is too passive

I was NOT always this woman ... I had to change and I too resisted until I was forced to change

next time your W brings up the A ... hold up your hand as in "stop" ... until she is quiet ... then grab her and kiss her deeply on the mouth and say "That was the past ... right now I want to kiss you and make love to you"

then walk away

shake things up

break the gridlock

and stop being stubborn with me or I will get nasty on you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

no "yes but"
no "I tried everything"

I ain't buying this horsechit mister !!!!

there are things that will likely work but YOU are too frightened to try them!

Pep

CN, I'm sorry to hear you are stuggling with being happy in your M. I can really relate to much of what you describe with the exeption of reversing BS and WS roles.

It really is hard to get out of that routine and that is why I like what Pep is suggesting. It will take alot of courage to expose yourself and try different things as she suggests.


I like your thinking Pep. It's a big leap for those of us who dread rejection but the payoff could change the dynamics of the M for CN.

I wish you all the best CN!
HTW

if your marriage is to come to an end

YOU must earn your way out first

and that means

radical honesty

no "I was miserable for years and nothing got better"

throw this marriage into a tailspin & shake things up good in order to let her know the truth about YOU

let her inside to see the emotional naked man she is married to

my husband was losing me until he was in his 2nd year of AA (also 2 years post D-day) ... amazingly, he started telling me how he felt

and guess what?

I hated it ... I did not like hearing that he was upset with me for doing some of my habitual bad marriage behaviors ... and it was HARD to hear ... because it was TRUE !!!!

so what?

you are delusional if you think this marriage of ours was handed to us

we earned it baby ... blood sweat and tears ...

Pep

name ONE adult that likes rejection

Pep

curious,

I said it because I do believe that my affair certainly caused a lot of damage in the marriage. It taints it. My marriage a lot like Lady MacBeth screaming "Out damn spot, out I say." And just like her, no matter how much scrubbing one does, the spot is still there. I know some don't feel this way, but I do.


No I not always mad at her. I don't have anger issues, at least she hasn't ever complained that I do. I'm sure I get a bit snippy sometimes though. I am far from perfect.


She knows that I would like her to come home more often. She knows that I feel disappointed when she out late, since she knows that I will feel this way, and I proabaly will, she thinks "why bother calling . . ." This is just a guess. She hasn't really said this.

Her hobbies . . . she is an artist. She paints, she does some sculpting, she makes jewelry, she knits, she does some fashion design. She runs. She is an aerobics instructor.

Me. . . when I do do my hobbies: I run a lot. I lift weights. I do martial arts. I read. I woodwork. I drink wine.

Look, I've asked her to do the EN thing, she declined. If you want me to guess her top 5: financial support, domestic support, attractive spouse, . . . these I'm pretty sure of. Affection . . . sometimes. Communication, probably . . . and we both suck at it and we know it.

Pep,

I am an relationship wussy and I know it.

I know you worked hard for your marriage . . . affairs, alcoholism and all the rest.

I'm just a bit beat up right now. I'm tired.

Maybe I'll try again.