Communication isn't an EN. Conversation is.

Please print out the questionnaire again and go to the trouble to fill it out as if you were your wife when she was 32 years old. Once you have the real list, then hammer out a long-term plan to become a specialist at meeting her needs the way she likes them to be met.

In the mean time, I'd like to suggest a few things you can do to increase your time together:

1. Take her (and the kids if you like) to arts events: galleries, special exhibits, festivals. Do this frequently. Do at least 2-3 things a month. Every month. Pick things she will want to cancel her plans for. If she doesn't accept your invitation, take the kids and let them tell her all the great fun she missed.

2. Run with her on a regular basis.

3. Become a regular in her aerobics class.

Thanks Hope.

How are you doing?

Any change with your wife?

Yes, I don't like rejection. I tend to be, especially lately, pretty passive in my relationship. I dare say even resigned.

Curious,

1. Good idea. We can do this.

2. We would have to get a sitter to exercise together. I tend to run in the mornings . . . she in the evenings. We will run the occasional race together. My pace is much faster than her's and she said that she feels patronized if I slow down and run with her. She is pretty competative if you haven't guessed.

3. Somehow . . . I just can't see me jumping around in spandex. It would be pretty funny though if I did go . . . perhaps I will. It would probably kill me, it is high impact.

By the way, I wasn't at all implying you had anger issues when I asked for clarification about whether you really are upset with everything she says and does. It's not an uncommon phenomenon for people who are unhappy in their marriages to be easily upset by their spouses. I was simply seeking clarification.

Also, I realized you asked her already to do the EN questionnaire. I should have acknowledged earlier that you wrote that. What I'm suggesting is that one option for finding out her ENs (and I've given you two options) is to ask her again -- this time phrasing your request entirely in terms of your ability to be a good husband. You mentioned that when you've tried to have relationship talks she becomes defensive. I'm trying to give you approaches that will put the focus on you rather than her so you can begin making progress and overcome her defensiveness.

((( CN )))

this is worth letting go all your fears and fighting the good fight

Pep

My wife sees relationship talks equating to her not being a good wife. I've learned through the years that she just doesn't want to talk about these things. She is a stuffer . . . and I am that way too.

I will think about approaching the EN thing again. . . it was pretty rough last time. She said something like if I was so concerned about our marriage why did I go off fing that b!

She was a little mad at the time.

Perhaps she wouldn't be now.

I'd be a liar if I didn't say I have some apprehension.

I see men in the aerobics classes at my gym all the time. They don't wear spandex -- just shorts and t-shirts (although I assume they've got the appropriate support underneath!).

There used to be a regular poster here trying to work on his marriage following his wife's affair. He started going to her aerobics class (she was a student, not an instructor) on a regular basis. All the other women in the class expressed over and over how impressed they were with him and how they wished their husbands joined them with more of their activities. It was really helpful for her to hear positive things being said about him in her presence.

As an instructor, your wife probably has lots of experience with people who had difficulty keeping up at first. She can probably give you some advice on ways to participate in the class without keeling over, and how to build your stamina so you can keep up better.

I can see how if you have a conversation with your wife saying you're not happy, that she'll take that as a criticism of her as a wife.

So don't say that.

Instead, say that you realize you haven't been very fun to live with, and that you'd like to be a better husband and father.

I'm sure I'm not very fun to live with right now.

Thanks again.

CN - just as an aside - many, many women get very turned off to sex because their partners never touch them unless it's in a sexual, groping way. Women resent this greatly and immediately start shutting down the minute he comes toward them, because they know he's going to dig and push and grope until she finally gives in and gets it over with.

This is NOT something any woman looks forward to. And of course it's a vicious circle, because he's starving for sex, so he starts grabbing the minute he thinks he might have a chance, and she feels pressured to give in just to get some peace, and so on and so on.

There are countless TV shows and books on What's Wrong With Women and Why They Have No Libido. They suggest drugging these women with tranquilizers and hormones and psychoanalyzing them to find out what childhood traumas made them hate sex.

Forget that crap. If any man wants more sex from the woman in his life, the #1 thing to try is Non-Sexual Touching.

Really.

I mean it.

If you sit on the couch to watch a movie, don't start groping her just because she's there and you might get some if you push her enough. Put your arm around her shoulders. Give her a back rub. Don't even try to go to first base. Do this on a regular, everyday basis and soon she'll be able to relax and encourage a little more.

I think most men would be astonished at what could happen if they tried this very simple thing on a daily basis.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

P.S. - You have GOT to stop being afraid of her anger.
Mulan

CN,

""We did go to counseling for a while and I guess things got better, we were more pleasant to each other and she spent a little more time at home, but now, it is back to the way it was.""

Would your W agree that things could and should be better in your M? If the answer is yes, (of course, it ALWAYS could be better, right?) then ask if she would be willing to go back to MC and try to make it the way IT WAS BECOMMING, before it went back to the way it was.

She must be feeling the same as you are.

What work does she do that she works the erratic hours and does not come home for a planned dinner, but arrives at 10:00??

Any red flags pop up because of the late arriving??

IMHO, as a FBS, bringing up the A after 5 years as an arguement tool is rather chicken$&!t and lazy.

Maybe she needs some counseling to work on her anger issues.

krk

Mulan,

Thanks for the information.

I don't grope my wife. I think it is pretty disrespectful to do that.

I wouldn't want to be groped either.

I used to touch her, non-sexual, a lot more than I do now. It is hard to rub air . . . she isn't here much.

What got me to actually post something (I usually don’t talk much about my personal life) is that I am losing my desire for sex. I'm not trying to get my wife to give me more sex. She will pretty much do it any time that I ask for it. . . unless she is really tired or ill. It is that I am just not asking . . . and she has never been one to offer. . . and that has me concerned.

Mulan,

How does one do that?

I AM afraid of her anger.

I don't like conflict. I've had too much of it in my life and all I get from it is an ulcer.

Krusht,

I could probably get her to go back to counseling. Perhaps I shall.

My wife routinely works 60-80 hrs per week.


Yes, I often wonder about if she is having an A of her own. I certainly earned it. I don't think that she is and don't quite feel I have a lot of right to question her about it. I've asked and she said I would be the first to know if she was.

I am not one for large drawn out discussions..

I think they get mired down in minutia
they break apart
they
blow up...

when i want something to change...
I go
small
tiny steps...

you say you and she aren't good at emotional talk..
I say..
get yourself good with it....
and I am not sure of what you mean by emotional talk..
do you mean
the good
or
the bad
or both...

If I were I'd start there...AND I'd start with the good...
learning to speak my emotion my love and my passion...

it's scary cause it's way outside your comfort zone...
but it has to start somewhere....
AND
you do it with NO expectation of response from her...
AND
inspite of response or lack there of......

when was the last time you said to her...

I can't wait till you get home tonight...just to see you...

infact how comfortable are you in saying it?

also start sharing your thoughts and dreams with her..
small
tiny doses...

tell her things like I was driving in the car and was thinking about that vacation in ______________________ and thought how nice it was and just wanted to share it with you....

linking emotions to good memories often begets deeper conversations......



when was the last time you grabbed your wife and slow danced in the kitchen...
or even way outside some peoples comfort zone...silly danced in the kitchen...to some lame 80's song...
ie
think PRINCE

Go places that involve activity with things
play pool
darts
go bowling (don't tell lemonman)
go to a movie or play that is controversial and illicits discussion...

also comfortably numb..must be interesting to be you..
the only man on earth not able to be forgiven....
pretty heavy burdon on you...

also must be interesting to be your wife...only woman on earth not called to forgive people for their old ways...
must be a burdon on her...

I think it is wrong of us to believe we are not worthy...
I would say that God made us to receive and give forgiveness...
that it exactly what he did and does...

I love love love peps idea about grabbing your wife and kissing her when she brings up the affair..
LOVE IT!!!

DO IT!!!!!!!! it awesome......

ARK

Ark,

I don't know what to say to you. . . but thanks. . . your post got me a little . . . I can't say it . . . what the heck choked-up a bit. I guess I'm not Mr. Spock after all.

Look, I am hard on myself. I know this. I'm just a guy who feels pretty rotten about how he has behaved.

If I accidently hurt someone, I think that I should eventually be forgiven for that. . . like in a car wreck or something. If I intentionally cut off someone's leg . . . it seems proposterous to even think about forgivness. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I see and affair as the later.

I think that women in general, an women who post here in particular, are much better than I am at expressing emotions. I have them. I have the vocabulary to express my feelings, but I just can't seem to say these things to my wife. I don't know why. I guess I'm afraid she would laugh.

Hi CN! I decided to stop by GQ today and saw your post. Hope you don't mind a few thoughts from me on your sitch. Whether you believe this or not, I consider you one of the people here on MB who was instrumental in my healing the first year or so on MB. You definitely were the only FWS who could tolerate my pain, that's for sure. So if I can help you out in any way I'd sure like to.

First, I've just got to get this thought out of my brain. Any chance your W may have ventured over to the dark side. I definitely don't like your comments about erratic behavior and coming home late without calling. Just an unpleasant thought which I hope isn't true.

CN, you told me once something like you had never seen a BS in as much pain as me. I don't agree that's true, but maybe I just laid it out here for all to see. I am not that person anymore. I don't consider myself or our M recovered yet, but I/we are not where we were when you wrote that. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now. Even if we weren't to make it I can see that light.

You have always reminded me of my H in a certain way. A man who is deeply remorseful about his choice to have an A. I will never forget some of your early posts to me during H's withdrawal. I'm not sure how far from d-day you were then, but you definitely were connecting with your W sexually back then. I know cause you told me. So what happened from then to now? I have seen from your infrequent sharing about you and your M that things have been slipping for a while now. OK, these are some of my thoughts.

H and I could very well be where your M is now except for a few reasons.

1) I'm not a CAer. H definitely is. John Gottman says in his new book one of the biggest things to make a M vulnerable to an A is one or both Ss are CAers.

2) I am a BS who has been willing to walk away if H couldn't or wouldn't do the work of recovery. It hasn't been easy because of my CAing H. Yet, to give him lots of credit he has stretched himself in many ways to face the things that need to be faced. He has kept trucking with me even though I am quite demanding.

3) We are very fortunate to have one heck of a MC. We saw him this morning and I told him that. I said how many crappy ones are mentioned here on MB. MC's who are so quick to tell the BS to just get over it. This is what he said. The only way to get over the pain of infidelity is to go through it. He said lots of MCs have the "get over it" mentality because they are uncomfortable dealing with the feelings themselves. He also said that often when a couple doesn't really go through it, it comes back to bite them in the a$$.

So, my question to you is do you think you and your W went through it? It really goes beyond answering questions IMHO. If she is a CAer could be she never did adequately process the A. Which might be the reason for her comments about the A.

Concerning sex. True intimacy goes hand in hand with sex. You and your W are living such separate lives. On recovery I started a thread to WOE. Some of what is being written there by BHs fit with what you are saying. Just because you had the A doesn't mean your punishment is to live in a M without intimacy. You are right, there is nothing worse than being lonely in a M. After living through H's A, and experiencing just that, I will never go through that again.

I agree with Pep on the need for radical honesty. It might be scary to face what's going on in your M, but not facing it will be the death of it. I also think if your communication problems and CAing are that bad you probably need the help of a good MC. Those problems alone are difficult enough without healing from infidelity being added to the mix.

I know you and I are from the state. It would be bizarre if we lived in the same city, which I'm not entirely comfortable posting here. Although I probably have already. If by chance you do live close by, and would consider MC, I'd share our MC with you. He really is fantastic.

All I can say is face this CN. Maybe just begin some conversations with your W about what her vision of a good M is. You both need a shared vision. Best wishes to you!

CV my old friend, it is great to hear form you!

Yea, things here are a bit of a mess. I'm not sure why. I spend so much time meddling in other people's lives here that I just thought it was my turn be meddled with.

Thanks for all your kind words . . . I need them today.

To your questions.

1. Yes, we both avoid confict in our relationship. We don't seem to do this in other avenues of our lives. Both of our occupations involve tons of conflict with people and we both thrive there . . . it is at home that we tip-toe around each other. It is weird.

2. I would do anything my wife needed of me to make this better, she just doesn't ask much. At first she wanted information (not as much as you did thank goodness . . .) once she got it that was that.

3. I agree. Our MC was a gem and she help us a lot at the time. We quite going because of time constraints . . .my W couldn't get off work very often . . . and the time just passed. I may ask to go again, but the last time I did she said something like "I thought this was behind us." So I don't know what to do.

My wife is not over my A. She is still plenty mad and I don't know what to do about that.

Yes, I would rather be lonely alone that lonely in my marriage. I don't like being here. We do have intimacy problems and I know that I place much more value on having sex than my wife does. I also know that, for whatever reason, it is more emotional to me that it is for her. I don't desire to be with her that way when we are disconnected and being with her that way makes me feel connected . . . what a mess. What is new is that I'm beginning to think it is ok. to feel this way. I don't want a sexless marriage . . . at least I don't think I do.

About the state thing . . . I understand not being comfortable posting your city. Don't. It would just be too weird knowing you are running around the same city.

Thanks again for your consideraton CV. I'm so glad your M is coming along. Perhaps mine will too.

Our marriage was in a similar spot three years ago. I, too, had pretty much given up. I felt very much disconnected from my husband, and he from me.

There were a lot of deep problems in our situation, but the one that was most obvious to both of us was that our sex life was pitiful.

I think a lot of it came from the different approaches that we both had to intimacy. Like most women, I need to feel connected to have sex, while my husband needed to have sex to feel connected. A Catch-22, and one that persists unless someone is willing to step out of their usual patterns and try something different.

My husband stepped first, and he did it by learning to talk about his feelings -- good, bad, indifferent. That was quite a step for him. As a dedicated conflict avoider, he had a lot of fear and he also didn't believe that sharing negative feelings would result in anything positive.

It took a lot of marriage counseling to change that thinking. What the counselor told him was that being a conflict avoider was a huge barrier to a happy marriage. It is a fear-based lifestyle that promotes lying, secrets, resentment and disconnection. If you're not willing to take the risk of "baring" yourself to your spouse, he or she will never be able to really know you. And if you don't know your partner, there is no intimacy.

But she also told us that being a conflict avoider does not have to be a life sentence. It is learned behavior, and can be unlearned, if it is important enough to you.

Of all Dr. Harley's concepts, the one that seems most crucial to me in marriage is radical honesty. But that goal cannot be met by conflict avoiders. It is an impossibility.

And besides that, once you get to a certain point in life, you realize that conflict avoiding no longer promotes comfort, if it ever did. It promotes mediocrity, passivity, hopelessness, resentment, disconnection.

Can you get her back into MC? And perhaps, at the same time do a little IC for yourself?