Hi Tru, thanks for the post.

I sorry your marriage was like mine is now, it isn't fun is it?

Yes, I need to feel connected/desired to seek out sex with my wife. I know that she will have it with me almost all the time I ask, I just know that she sees it as a duty (she has said this before) and it isn't offered out of any real desire. I think she thinks it is just what a wife is supposed to do and she does it. The problem is that I just don't want in that context. I know . . . many men here that get no sex at all would probably say that I should just shut up and take what is offered, and I did do that for years, it just doesn't work for me anymore. I guess I've changed.

If I rationally think about my personality, I'm really not the typical conflict avoider. I will just chose a solution that minimizes conflict if given that option. If there is an issue that I really feel strongly about, I will make my opinion known. I just rarely feel the need to escalate things to that degree. I don’t lie to my wife to avoid conflict, at least I’m not aware that I do that.

Oh, I've done a little IC, but I just didn't find it that worth while. The counselor seems to be steering me in a direction that I really didn't wish to go . . . more of a save yourself, end this marriage and make yourself happy kind of nonsense. I asked her "who ever said that marriage is supposed to make one happy?" she looked at me as if I had three heads. I think the vast majority of people on this planet are pretty miserable actually, and when I really think about it, my life is pretty good in comparison. Like most people I’m just not happy with what I have . . . I guess I’m wondering if things could be better, and of course, they could.

CN,

If you fear her anger to a degree that it prevents you from even stating your needs/feelings, that's my definition of a problem. Maybe it's not classic conflict avoidance, but it's a problem. Likewise your reluctance and hers to discuss anything "emotional". That's an incredibly confining way to live, or it would be for me.

IF you had a good MC before, go back. Learn how to dissolve those fears. Learn how to be open and honest, radically honest. God, it is the most freeing thing you can imagine. To be able to say what you feel and think and know that it will be heard and accepted. Not that she will necessarily do exactly what you want, but that your thoughts and feelings are important to her because they are yours.

I think that you are wrong that marriage isn't supposed to produce happiness. That's exactly what it is supposed to do. And it can. Not every second, and not without problems. But overall happiness, he11 yeah.

It took me more than two decades to get there, but I wouldn't trade my marriage or my husband for anyone or anything in the world now. And this is a man who had a long affair.

I have forgiven him, and believe me I am not a forgiving person historically. What he did, what you have done, is forgivable, if you are both willing to work through the hard, emotional stuff.

It's risky. It requires being bare, but it is really do-able. Honest.

Hey CN...

I have a question for you. Is it really fear that's holding you back? Or is it appathy/lack of motivation? Or maybe a little of both?

I think... when your relationship is on the rocks... and when you're withdrawn from your spouse... it's easy to slip into a state of "comforable numbness". And it can be very hard to find the motivation to pull yourself out of it.

On one hand, you're not completely miserable. Maybe you haven't quite hit that "rock bottom" state that propels a lot of people into action.

On the other hand, it may be too hard right now for you to even imagine success. You know that repairing your relationship will be an enormous amount of work and maybe you just don't know if it will be worth it. Or worse... you seriously doubt that it will be worth it. The idea of ditching the whole thing is sooooo much more appealing right now than embarking on what appears to be an uphill battle.

Is that how you're feeling?

If so, maybe you could look at it this way: As Pep said, you have to earn your way out. Not because anyone else says so... but for YOU. So you're not haunted with regrets or "what if's". Give yourself one year. One full year of real gung-ho effort. Trying approaches you haven't tried yet. I love the idea of going to her aerobics class! I love all the wacky stuff Pep has suggested! What do you have to lose at this point? And if nothing has improved a year from now... you'll know you really and truly tried.

As for fear... boy do I relate to that! I want to share something with you that has helped me a lot lately. It's from the book "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodron. She's a buddhist nun who... interestingly enough... found her calling after her husband cheated on her and her marriage fell apart.

In the book, she writes about leaning into... and through... our fears. The following story about one of her mentors.


Maybe the next time your wife brings up the affair... you can picture her as a snarling dog and yourself as a buddhist monk in flowing robes running straight at her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />... and it will give you the courage to do exactly as Pep has suggested!! And don't forget the part about walking away afterward. Leave her standing there stunned! Could be kind of amusing if nothing else, no?

--SC

Tru,

I think happiness comes from within, it isn't some external state or something imposed by external conditions. I guess what I'm saying is that even if you have the best marriage ever it doesn't mean that you will be happy as a separate individual. I think that is why we are always advised to fix ourselves before we venture to worry about our spouse. I am glad for you that you are happy in your marriage. It must make life much more rewarding.

Smartcookie:

Pretty good analysis if I say so myself . . . over the years I have become comfortably numb . . . hence the name. It is that the comfortable part is beginning to wear a little thin. . . and if I’m honest with myself, I’m not nearly as numb as I would convince myself I am. I’ve learned to detach myself from my feeling, but they are still there just under the surface.

I don't really want to end my marriage, but I can't stand it the way it is. I posted just to get some ideas about what to do. I'm not adverse to shaking things up a bit . . . it is hard to have a conversation with an empty room . . . well you can do it, but it is kind of one sided.

I can try for a year . . . no problem. I like the ideas that Pep et al. laid out, it is hard to see this man who now sits at the computer typing doing those things. I could see a younger version of myself doing them, but I don't know about now. I know that I'm not really going anywhere and I think my wife knows that too. I'm too attached to my kids to willingly be a part-time Dad. I’m too attached to my wife too. I knew from the day I met her that I wanted her in my life and I still do. It isn’t that I’m staying “for the kids”, but without them I would find this whole human experience pretty worthless. The kids are the most rewarding part of my life and I will suck up a lot of stuff just to here with them. They are only this young once. Childhood isn’t forever. Once they are grown then perhaps I will have less incentive to remain as I am.

Finally, my wife isn’t mean. She is smart, motivated, successful, attractive (I think she is prettier now than when I met here a decade and ½ ago), but a pain to live with. I’m sure I’m no prize either. She has put up with a lot from me and I think that a lot of her being absent is her way of dealing with being a relationship that is strained. We cope is somewhat different ways, but the core of both are to distance and distract. . . and these are fine methods to defuse volatile situations. The problem is that we use these techniques for just about any problem.

"CV my old friend, it is great to hear form you!"

Phew! I'm glad we're still friends! I thought maybe you were a bit annoyed by me over our differing views a few months back. Of course a little annoyance wouldn't hold me back from lending a helping hand out to you.

"Thanks for all your kind words . . . I need them today."

This is where I am going to remind you of something that you did for me. Some kind words you offered me when my self-esteem was in the dumpster and my pain was off the richter scale. H was maybe through withdrawal but into his new phase of extreme guilt and shame. The result being that instead of showering me with love and affection, he was too guilt-ridden to give a whole lot. I had this unbelievably LONG thread over on recovery where I was writing about my crappy life, and you were one of the folks sticking with me. You didn't advise me to Plan A H more. You didn't tell me that I really needed to stop my LBing ways. You said to me that I wasn't someone to be settled for. I've been thinking about those words as I've been thinking about your sitch CN. In the past 2 and a half years on MB your words probably had more impact than anything anyone ever said to me. Those words were EXACTLY what I needed to hear. Not only that, I needed to hear them from a man, and hearing them from a man who was a FWS had extra meaning for me. I realize that your words have kind of become my guiding light during this recovery. The realization that I'm not someone to be settled for "and" I also don't want to settle for less than I deserve. So thanks CN! You have definitely had an impact on this BW.

CN, I'm glad you decided to put yourself out here cause I know it's hard for you. Remember when I called you out over on Recovery, but then that thread got all screwed up over the "Myrta" drama? Anyway, you were digging into some of your FOO issues along with some of your M issues. I totally agree with Tru in that if the CAing habit runs very deep you and your W might not be able to reverse the pattern without a really good MC. What I have learned is this. No matter how fantastic MB is, even if it has the potential to totally transform a M, the defense mechanisms of avoidance and denial can override the motivation to do MB.

By the way, your former IC sucked! If you go into IC you need a pro-M IC. Preferably an IC who understand infidelity.

"Like most people I’m just not happy with what I have . . . I guess I’m wondering if things could be better, and of course, they could."

CN, you might have been dysfunctional enough at one time to make the stupidest choice of your life, but you're not that man now. You do know that there's better. You have learned from this and I think you know you and your W can be much better than you are. And you can be!

"About the state thing . . . I understand not being comfortable posting your city. Don't. It would just be too weird knowing you are running around the same city."

I LOL at that. Would it be just too scary knowing CV55 might be frequenting the same CVS as you? If you needed to find a really good MC I'd be willing to somehow figure out if we were in the same city just to get his name to you. If you think your former MC is good then that's even better.

Sorry this was so long. Keep writing CN. Get clear about what's going on with you. Our MC told us yesterday to be proud that we've come this far. He said it beats out the pain and destruction of divorce. I don't believe in staying Med at all costs. But I don't believe in calling it quits without 1st really giving it all you've got. See if your W is willing to go the distance with you. No time is no excuse when it comes to saving a M.

Thanks so much CV.

Your welcome CN! I just spoke the truth. Don't disappear, OK? There is nothing wrong with asking for help. Trust me when I tell you that the gabby, bossy, writing maniac me that you've gotten to know here on MB is a new me. Although I wasn't a CAer, my pattern has always been to deal with my sh!! alone. During H's A, 9 months of pure he!!, I told one person about our M problems after months of emotional neglect. As I've learned here it really is true that "we'll get by with a little help from our friends." You obviously have folks here who are eager to support the new, non-CAing you. YOU CAN DO IT! Just like you told me, you don't have to settle or be settled for.

"I think happiness comes from within, it isn't some external state or something imposed by external conditions. I guess what I'm saying is that even if you have the best marriage ever it doesn't mean that you will be happy as a separate individual. I think that is why we are always advised to fix ourselves before we venture to worry about our spouse. "


I totally agree with you, CN. If a person isn't happy, he shouldn't expect marriage to make him happy. But I don't think an unhappy person can have a happy marriage. Marriage requires too much of you. If you don't have happiness within you, you don't have it to give to a marriage.

I guess I neglected to mention on this thread that I spent the two years post d-day in IC as well as Imago MC. I could not have succeeded at one without the other.

I would advise you to give both another try. For someone who loves their children as much as you do, improving your marriage is one of the greatest gifts you can give them.

We learn almost everything about how to have relationships from our parents. Their relationship to each other imprints itself on us in a myriad of ways, conscious and unconscious. That was one of the greatest motivators for me in trying to fix my marriage. I wanted to give my sons the kinds of lessons that I never had.

Have you and your wife made any connections to the underlying feelings that compelled you to have this A? If you were in counseling this must have come to the surface?

You shouldn't 'capitulate and just shut up.' I would think you should say, "Having an affair rather than dealing head-on with my needs not getting met in my marriage was a very bad choice that I acknowledge and apologize for." I'd practice this or something like it and recite it whenever she drops the "A" bomb.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Gimme a break CN!!!!! You're in your early 40's right???!!!
I was hoping some of the real old geezers around here (she said with affection) would jump all over you for this... but since they haven't yet... allow me to egg them on a bit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyone want to comment on the idea the CN -- at the ripe old age of 40-something -- is too old to shake things up a bit????

Hi all.

Thanks again for all your thoughts. I really appreciate the time that you took out of your busy lives to lend me an ear and to give me some great advice. I probably won't be posting for the time being, I need to spend the time I spent here on more productive venues . . .

Things haven't been all roses here and the Numb house, in fact, I am beginning to think that it would be better to end this marriage and to be a single Dad. I'm going to contact a attorney, the best I can find, in the coming week and see what my options are. I just don't know how much longer I can live this way, I don't have the . . . will . . .ability . . . to heft this marriage on my own.

It is sad. The kids will suffer. My wife will suffer and so will I. The only upside to this is my suffering will have a chance to terminate at some point, as it is, it will never end.

I tried to save this marriage, I tried to make it something special and wonderful . . . I failed.


I'm tired.

CN

CN, you wrote:

"I tried to save this marriage, I tried to make it something special and wonderful . . . I failed."

CN, before you go away, I would really appreciate it if you would elaborate on that statement. Are you saying that you took the risk and talked to your W and she shot you down? Are you saying she has no desire to have an intimate M with you? Or are you saying you have decided it just isn't even worth taking the risk? Before you set something extreme into motion could you please push yourself and talk a little bit more. I do care about you!

(((CN)))
I'm so sorry for teasing you about the age thing. Horrible timing on my part.

I too wish you would share what made you go from seeking help to losing all hope so quickly.

Either way, please take care of yourself.

Wishing you peace,
--SC

CN

I am sorry to read your travails.

I can identify fully wih your statement that :

My wife sees relationship talks equating to her not being a good wife. I've learned through the years that she just doesn't want to talk about these things. She is a stuffer

I sometimes get frustrated with the well intentioned folks on this site who believe that everybody CAN and WILL change behaviour such as this.

My dear, dear Squid is EXACTLY as you describe your wife, and in her case she would really rather divorce, maybe even DIE before deeply examining and offering herself up for processing. I can get her to move inch by inch but its like dragging out teeth with pliers, too exhausting for both of us to feel any benefit from it.

I am sad if your M ends after all your efforts, but I would not live in a perpetually unsatisfying marriage either.

FWIW you're a credit to our gender for the efforts you have investing in righting your wrong. Whether you save your marriage or not, you should know that.

CN,

Did you speak with her and she refused to work on the marriage? If so, then I guess it's time to get out the scales and weigh the cost/benefits of staying in the marriage vs. leaving.

I'm sorry that is the spot you are in. I will tell you though, when I was in the same spot, my husband greatly surprised me with what he was willing to do to stay married. He was an incredibly defended man, emotionally. But once it became clear to him that my unhappiness had crystallized into action, it spurred him to action, too. He did things I would have never believed him capable of, or willing to even consider.

But it did have to get to that place -- in my case total detachment in preparation for divorce -- before he was willing to do the work with me to build a real marriage. I guess his fear of losing his family was greater than his fear of self-examination/change.

Tru

Tru, what you wrote is so right on.

"I'm sorry that is the spot you are in. I will tell you though, when I was in the same spot, my husband greatly surprised me with what he was willing to do to stay married. He was an incredibly defended man, emotionally. But once it became clear to him that my unhappiness had crystallized into action, it spurred him to action, too. He did things I would have never believed him capable of, or willing to even consider.

But it did have to get to that place -- in my case total detachment in preparation for divorce -- before he was willing to do the work with me to build a real marriage. I guess his fear of losing his family was greater than his fear of self-examination/change."

I've quoted something a fellow intern said during a group supervision several times on MB. It so fits with your last sentence. She said when a person's avoidance becomes more painful than what he/she is trying to avoid, that is when the person will change. Bob wrote:

"My wife sees relationship talks equating to her not being a good wife. I've learned through the years that she just doesn't want to talk about these things. She is a stuffer

I sometimes get frustrated with the well intentioned folks on this site who believe that everybody CAN and WILL change behaviour such as this."

Bob, I definitely don't think that every CAer can and will change. I think the faulty thinking is expecting a CAer to change on his/her own. Often the S who is healthier and knows there is a better way has to rock the boat first. The other fallacy is thinking there is no way the CAing S can change. It's amazing what people will do when they realize they might lose something valuable if they don't get their sh!! together.

My wife sees relationship talks equating to her not being a good wife. I've learned through the years that she just doesn't want to talk about these things. She is a stuffer

I sometimes get frustrated with the well intentioned folks on this site who believe that everybody CAN and WILL change behaviour such as this.


Ok mr bobpure smartypants..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


While I definitetly believe that everybody CAN change their behavior...
I don't believe everyone will...

but more often than people really do keep trying the same things over and over and over and keep getting the same results over and over....

I infact believe very very little in RELATIONSHIP TALKS..and usually want to throw myself on the floor and make wretching noises when someone says they are going to talk about their relationship with their spouse...gag gag gag....

relationship talks DON:T work

I statements
I actions
those work in my opinion in getting attention and in mixing things up and in creating chaos...conflict...and change...



If I was reaching the point that I was ready to say I am thinking of divorce...I would dayumm well make sure that I did EVERYTHING in MY power to CHANGE me and address those things I identified that did not bode well for the marriage...


Heres what I say to you comfortably numb.....

you go ahead and see a lawyer...
BUT
pick a time line in your head before you even think of filing...ie 3-6 months...

then YOU work your TAIL off changing those things...

you say she comes home and goes to her hobby...follow her like a puppy dog...
sit next to her...
and chit chat away about this that and the other.....
like a fool..
free yourself
tell yourself in six months I will no longer EVER sit beside my wife and talk with her like I can and do while married....
and dammitt I am going to make the most FUN and most MEANING of these six months...in small almost intangible moments....
so that when I file and she gets served I will hold my head up high and say...
I really really tried my best.....

learn to express emotions not in some dramatic overbearing way...but in bits in pieces....

you identify in those posts things that YOU could do better...
and today you're seeing a lawyer...

I say...
what's 3-6 more months
where you work on you and being the man you envision..

other wise you are leaving this marraige...still not knowing how to speak your feelings
still not comfortatble with this or that..etc...

what's the point...in that....

so give yourself 3-6 months...and see this marriage dead in six months...
what would you say to your wife
knowing in six months you won't speak again ever on the same level.....

ARKIE