So I’m at the stage where I’m dealing with Entitlement. What is there for me?

My wife is showing effort to rebuild trust and our relationship. She is trying to understand my need to check up on her, but she admits she still resents it. We are going to marriage counseling and although she still makes a crack every once in a while about the cost, she attends because I ask her to.

So I believe we’re on the road to recovery. She thinks we’re farther along than I think we are, but that will work its way out over time.

I’m still struck by sudden, deep sadness and remorse over the whole set of circumstances. I'm walking down the hall at work thinking about work when, BAM!, I'm all of a sudden depressed and thinking about her affairs. The questions are the same as everyone else’s: “Why did she have to do this?”, “What’s wrong with me?”, “Will I ever get over it?”, etc.

I don’t tell her about most of it anymore since she thinks I’m dragging her back through it if I do.

I’ve read many of the posts on what’s left after recovery and how a betrayed spouse moves on. If we make it through recovery, we’ll have a stronger marriage and future together.

But what’s in it for me – just me and no one else?

I know it sounds selfish and immature, but I’m really struggling with it.

During her affairs only one of us had any “fun” and I know it wasn’t me. She had two men (me and the other men at the time) chasing her affections, telling her she is beautiful and showing her attention. I realize that while she was with the OM, I had no one who cared about me or my feelings.

My self-esteem is currently at an all-time low. I get anxiety over unknown phone numbers. I worry every time she wants to go shopping by herself. I’m a nervous wreck when she has to travel for business. I’m depressed and not sleeping well.

And this is true while things are going well!?!

What do I get out of all of this except lost sleep, more gray hair, insecurities and a life-span shortened by stress?

What is there that other betrayed spouses who are recovered can point back to and claim as theirs and theirs alone?

There’s no recognition (no one knows about her affairs but her, me and the counselor); there’s no parade (not that I’m really looking for one); there’s no “Well done” from anyone.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m not really looking for the key to the city or a medal – it would just be nice to have someone I know personally say that I’m doing the right thing.

Did I consent to getting nothing for me out of this when I agreed to not get divorced and work on my marriage?

I hope this is just a phase and I’ll get over this building resentment/entitlement. It really has me bothered that I could be so petty and childish about something so important.

I know that right is right no matter how much it hurts and that I should focus on what God has for my life and know that He wants my marriage to succeed. But that's hard to see sometimes. It's hard to feel like He'd really want me to go through all of this.

Did anyone else go through this stage?

YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you don't personally know me but there it is.

The idea here is that at the end of this journey you will get something out of it.

I have the same issues you have. Why did she get all the fun......

For me I have two children, I want them to be in the same house as mommy and daddy. If we can stay together and become a better couple to show them what love is about then I have been repaid 100 fold.

Well Done ART!!!!

Wow Art, you had me worried untill I read this.

How much you have grown from this. She's back working on it....so tell me how ya did it.
Think about that. How did you do it?

You sound strong to me....I feel your strength through my key board here.

Oh wait that the vibration that the air conditioner makes when it kicks in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I'm feeling a little goofy right now.

Hang in there.
Read some more over in recovery.
You CAN and WILL do this.

Good Luck to you.
Smile.....sometimes it helps.
JS

Artor,

Great post!!!!!

It is going right into my posts of fame icon.

“Did anyone else go through this stage?”

Aphelion sheepishly raises his hand …

You are right, it’s typical resentment. It takes on a life of its own if you don’t work at keeping it at bay. It is your Taker peaking out.

I looked through some of your older posts and didn’t see it right off – how long since the latest D-Day?

I ask because there is a predictable ebb and flow of resentment. It seems to peak at around 6 months, then again at around a year. Then again at two years. I am even feeling it again at 2 ½ years, but not as much as before. I believe that’s an important point to remember – if your FWW is being transparent, meeting your ENs and is truly remorseful the resentment fades sooner than it otherwise does.

You and I are both dealing with multiple D-Days, a long history of affairs and a less than totally remorseful and committed in actions wife. Dr H has this to say about resentment in this situation:

“The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment. “

And:

“In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.”

Read the entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

A couple extra thoughts:

“My self-esteem is currently at an all-time low. I get anxiety over unknown phone numbers. I worry every time she wants to go shopping by herself. I’m a nervous wreck when she has to travel for business. I’m depressed and not sleeping well.”

Radical Honesty from her, total transparency and a commitment to POJA will go far in helping you cope. Lead your W to these MB methods . You can’t make her use them, and you can’t even lecture her on them, but you can be her example.

“What is there that other betrayed spouses who are recovered can point back to and claim as theirs and theirs alone?”

Integrity. Keeping your promises, no matter what. Choosing love as a verb. These are the things you will remember and take with you no matter how this turns out. Compare these with what a WS has to carry forward. Feelings maybe, and that’s it.

I would like to say I think you are doing a good thing. I would be proud to know you in person. And there is nothing in the rules of engagement preventing you from talking to someone you know and trust. Go ahead. I give you permission.


With prayers,


PS: “She thinks we’re farther along than I think we are, but that will work its way out over time.” Not really. None of this stuff works itself out over time. You have to be proactive. You have to push on the soft spots.

i am right where you are buddy, same sudden depressions, anxieties and anger. i have lost all faith in marriage and love. I know staying to make the marriage work is the right thing to do for my kids, but deep down i know where this is gonna end, with my heart on the floor again. Sorry but i have alot less faith in the "this will make our marriage stroinger stuff*

I too hope this is only a phase

Very quickly, I want to add:

Start working on your personal Plan A. Plan A is as much improving yourself, feeding your own taker (with appropriate food) as it is meeting your W's ENs and avoiding LBusters.

Maybe make a list of things you want to accomplish over the next five years. Yeah, a Five Year Plan, comrade. Things like save up to buy a Harley (the motorcycle), learn to fly, learn a foreign language, earn the promotion at work you passed up because of previous D-Days, get another graduate degree, just go fishing…

And do things for others. Smile at people. Say hello to strangers. Tutor at-risk children. Become a Scout merit badge counselor (I’m an Eagle so this was near the top of my list), volunteer at a homeless shelter, help old ladies across the street. Get out of yourself.

Many of the above are on my personal Plan A list, and I am making slow and steady progress. It feels good. Every small step lessens the resentment.

Just temper the time and resources you commit to these kinds of things with POJA and transparency. Again, be her MB example.

With prayers,

Artor:

You are not alone with these feelings. For me they have been the toughest of all the ones to overcome in our recovery. I had an appointment today with IC and most of the discussion was centered around this exact topic. I used the words resentment and entitlement. My IC spun this off using the words fairness and control. I will give you an example of this and how that it has got me thinking a little differently in this regards. He used the analogy that what if someone came up and hit us with a baseball bat in the back. It would hurt and we would sure want to know why they hit us, how they sneaked up on us without us knowing, etc. But just as importantly, our reaction would be most likely to want to hit them back or else run. The runners are those BS who for whatever reason chose not to try and rebuild their marriage. The most important function most likely is to not ever put themselves in that position again. The others, like us want to hit back but we can't for whatever reason...our marriage is too important to risk on a revenge A, our personal morals don't allow it, whatever. But we still have that need to hit back somehow. In a perfect world, we would all just say that we give that need up to God or that we chose to ignore it and move forward or whatever but in reality, me, probably you and probably most similarly situated BS still want to hit back somehow. Revenge on the OM, have our own affair, hold on to the pain so that we could hurt our spouses down the road or even just have it to hold above their head. But we know we can't do that if the most important thing is rebuilding our marriage at this point. So what do we do. My IC suggested that I make out a list of why that my FWW's having an affair bothered me if I put it in the context of fairness instead of resentment, entitlement, whatever. So here is what I came up with.

1) She got to enjoy her fantasy and still come back to a better marriage despite her mistakes. I don't get my fantasy but I am saddled with the baggage of the A even though I do enjoy the better relationship we have now. That is not fair.

2) Since her A was never exposed and was way over long before I found out, she suffered no consequences for her poor decisions (don't blast me FWS, this is just a BS perspective). When I have made mistakes in my live, I had to suffer the consequences for those mistakes. This is not fair.

Using these two examples, I have some come up with some ways to possible satisfy my need to have the tables leveled without damaging our recovery process, to wit:

* I have to really think through my fairness equation on number two. No one, not the BS and not the WS comes out of an affair without consequences. I have to have the personal growth to see that I am a better person because of my reactions to this disaster and continue to be the protector of my wife and family. At this point, what good does exposure do except to hurt my wife. Both me and OMW know about the A, we have both instilled and enforced our boundaries on each of our spouses to ensure that there is no chance for contact ever again and my energy is better used helping my wife recover from the baggage that she is carrying as a consequence of her actions rather than trying to fill my needs to make it fair. That one is kind of easy for me to implement and rationalize.

* The first one is a bigger one for me though. I think we all have sexual fantasies that we wished that we could fulfill. Often our WS participated in those type of activities (or could have) in their affair but in their normal character they just are not comfortable with doing those things. For men, this all goes back to all our desire to marry the girl next door type, innocent, well respected,e tc. in public but have her be a slut in our bedroom. I believe that this fairness issue combined with our spouses reluctance to allow us to fulfill our sexual fantasies with them is largely responsible for the incredibly high incidence of revenge affairs with men. The men rationalize this not to get even with their wife so much as to get thier own fantasies fulfilled. I don't want to have an affair with someone else but I do fill entitled to have my sexual fantasies fulfilled in addition to the normal, hum drum marital sex that we have. I though all day about how to resolve this and I am going to suggest something to my wife that may resolve this issue once and for all. I want to have an affair with HER. I want to live our normal lives and our normal sex lives paying the bills, etc. but once a month or so I want us to get away, get a hotel room, spend the entire day doing whatever either of us fantisize or desire...in an affair setting. But our secrets are between us as marital partners. We are not bringing other people into our lives but the getting away together and the secrecy and the lack of inhibitions adds some spice to our regular, hum drum everyday life. I am not sure what her response to this will even be but I am pretty sure that if this means that we drastically reduce the risk that I search out an affair of my own and in the process we get even more undivided attention between us, what is the downside?

This is just some thoughts. I wrote my wife a rather lengthy letter prior to my counseling session today explaining that I appreciated the efforts that she was making and the roadblocks to our recovery were a result of me more than her, but they were based on my perceptions (not reality) right or wrong that I just could not yet work through.

I hope that this gives you some ideas on how that these entitlement issues might be resolved. My IC using some word trickery replacing my words with similar but slightly different words did have the effect of reopening my thought process and trying to find solutions, instead of obsessing on the problem.

NT

Thanks, muchly, nottoday.

I'm right with you on all of this.

You and I seem to be having the same two sources of resentment: the fairness of her fantasy and the lack of consequences.

Your counselor sounds much better than ours. I posted earlier about some things he said I disagree with, but due to his vacation and our schedule with kids, it's been about two weeks since we've been back. If he doesn't start showing some of the insight your counselor is showing, we'll be going elsewhere.

I have to think about the "have an affair with my wife" approach. Sounds intriguing, I'm not sure I can carry it off without some negative feelings about affairs in general.

It's funny you mentioned the sexual side. I've seen many posts on here about couples immediately following D-Day saying they had weeks/months of great sex and intimacy.

Man, I must have not read the back of the application or forgot to check a box somewhere because that didn't happen for us. I'm missing out somewhere.

Thanks for your detailed response -- it was very helpful to know that there are others struggling with the same issues.

Thanks, JSlost.

I know I've grown from this -- it's amazing how much the soul can take.

Life will stabilize. It's the end of the "honeymoon" I worry about. When my wife's "you-still-love-me-in-spite-of-what-I've-done-to-our-marriage" feelings begin to fade.

Strength in my conviction that God will see me through this is about all I have somedays. That, and the folks on this board helping to keep me sane.

Thanks

Hopefully a "Posts of Fame" and not "Posts of Shame".

Shameful is how I felt composing the post and still more so after reading it.

I feel so petty and childish about it, but the feelings are real.

I guess I haven't helped matters by agreeing to my wife getting a "I went to marriage counseling" present after each session. Usually something from Brighton.

Maybe I'll get one next time.

I'm with you, man. Been all over the map on my emotions.

There are days where just looking at my wife makes me sad. Knowing what she has shared with other men -- something that was intended to be just between us.

Staying for the kids is a tool that works for a while. It helps me focus through the bad days and reminds me that there was some very positive stuff to come out of our marriage.

I know I can look back since D-Day and see some growth in both me and my wife. I'm hoping it will keep going up from there.

Keep posting here, man. It's been helpful for me to both learn and share what I've learned with others.

I've thought about this, but only in passing.

I guess it's time to let my Taker out of his cage to stretch every so often.

The merit badge counselor is something I never considered before. I, too, achieved Eagle Scout and loved Boy Scouts. Since I only have daughters any organized activities have been supporting dance, cheerleading and other "girlie" things. A merit badge counselor is not a regular committment that would interfere with participating in my daughter's activities.

Thanks.

The last D-Day was in late-July/early-August (it stretched out over days of venom from her).

The OM from her 2nd PA had been contacting her about renewing the relationship and she was in continued contact with a guy from California with whom she had an on-again/off-again EA.

The 2nd PA had a D-Day in February 2006.

I've often wondered why this time around I am in such a deeper state of remorse and sadness. Thanks for the reminder of the article.

I appreciate the encouragement and words of wisdom.

I know I'm doing the right thing, it just is harder some days than others -- as it is for all of us (including my wife).

Thanks, hurtingless.

It's really a struggle somedays -- that's when I need the 2x4 upside my backside.

I know there are struggles for both me and my wife as well as everyone on this board.

I look forward to the day I can look back from a much futher distance than I am today and talk about it clinically and map our progress toward healing.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Artor

I have seen my own recovery, and that of many other BS follow predictable steps. The steps or stages may be similar but the timelines are very different. Also, once the full set has been run through, stages can be selected in seemingly random fashion.


1.- Devastation.
Fear, shock, confusion, existential pain. Loss of hopes, dreams and every assumption about God and man.
D-day and just afterwards. Don't want to go there again, ever.

2.- Appeasement.
OK, I've been dealt a [email]cr@p[/email] hand, but if she will at least stay home SOME of mt life support systems may at least function a bit.

3.- Indignation.
F'k that ! I'm stronger now and i WILL NOT suck up any more pain than I have to. Still scared, but not settling for crumbs.
This is where MB gets SERIOUSLY assimilated and applied. Turns hatred on OM as being to blame for affair.

4.- Gratitude.
The affair is ended, WW sends NC letter, exposure scares OM into darkness. THANK YOU GOD ! LA LA LA LA LA ! Still suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

5.-"Advising others how to be wonderfully recovered like I am"

We have like SF 3 times a day, and a restored marriage is a decent possibility again and I am so PATHETICALLY grateful to not be in the deepest [email]cr@p[/email] imaginable I am hyper-happy. Yessiree, no recovery problems for me !This is it for ever and it only took us x months ! Secretly suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

6.-"Ah, theres an elephant in the sitting room"

So day to day life has been OK for a while now. SF, even maybe some ILYs. Kids are happy. Life is ACTUALLY not happier than for years but it is so much better than during the dark times of the affair and withdrawal that it seems that way. But you start to notice the 'elephant' in the sitting room : the enormous baggage of the affair that the BS has been previously too 'fight or flight' or psychotically happy to address. Suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

7.- "I am angry and I don't need you so whY am I here ?"

BS has operated in a loveless and hurt world for so long is now amost completely self sufficient. Is no longer even slightly desperate. Does not NEED FWW as whole life support mechnanism has HAD to regrow without her while she betrayed and sulked over the months. Feels indignation at both the insult of the affair AND the insult of FWW not contributing HARD to recovery. Feels like an ATM machine and bodyguard and hugely taken for granted. KNOWS FWS still loves OM.

8. - What about MY needs ?

BS has developed a sense of self worth independent of what others think. Has had to. Thinks he deserves MUCH more affection, admiration respect, gratitude. " I didn't put this amount of effort in just to be nagged at all the time, and never be praised. I deserve MORE than that!." The kids happiness at a stable family quells thoughts of rebellion. realises OM was just an amoral scumbag who made the most of an opportunity FWW offered him, 100% of the blame for the A is FWW. This hits hard.

9. - Resignation

The kids are happy, I am not unhappy, FWW is happy, this is just my lot in life. Better get on with it.

10.- make or break drive to get a M the BS deserves.

An effort from BS to challenge the peaceful but unsatisfying status quo in an attempt to get BS needs met.

I reckon you're at around phase 3.

Take heart from the fact that I ( and hundreds of other BS) have felt exactly as you do AND in fact experienced all the steps in this cycle yet now my baby love sme, is very sorry, an dworks very hard to be the best wife and mother she can be for me.

These phases are easier to handle when you expect them IME.

All blessings.

Thank for the view down the road.

I do question my wife's motiviations for staying with me and wonder some days if she's trying to simply make lemonade out of the lemon of a husband she thinks she's been given. Not here because she really wants to be here, but, what the heck, it's better than nothing.

I don't see the elephant in the room, yet, but I have stepped in some of the piles of [email]cr@p[/email] he leaves.

Thanks for the insight.

Artor

Understand that your W has deluded herself quite deliberately and comprehensively that her marriage is rubbish, you are rubbish and she was completely justified to have her affair. All that "fog" does not dissipate quickly. A wise friend of mine on and off these boards, Gimble, said that " God does not always reveal our flaws and true natures to ourselves all at once because the shock may kill us or leave us hopeless".

The WS fog blows away gradually to reveal the facts of the situation: that their affair was unjustified and wicked, and that their vilification of their marriage and spouse was undeserved.

Thats why it is important for BS to be "lighthouses" - to behave in a way that shows our good spousehood and love, and to provide a place of welcome and sanctuary for a repentent FWS.

Its horrible being you right now - I know I've been there, but believe me when I say its probably worse being a FWS right now. Just imagine how it feels when yoru screaming conscience can no longer be drowned out by rationalistaion and justification.
If you want to recover your marriage, love her Artor. Love her HARD about now, even if you don't feel like it. Don;t be a doormat but LOVE HER. She'll crash soon, and its best if she feels able to crash in your arms.

Artor:

We really do have a lot in common, it is just that I am a little farther down the road than you and have had the blessing of really wonderful insightful IC's.

Keeping these things inside you seems like the best thing to do because you feel like that if you bring it up, you are just beating her over the head with it and you wonder what good it will do for your recovery...but

IMPO, keeping it inside is a big mistake that will make the feelings of resentment and entitlement even stronger. Radical Honesty requires that we share everything with our spouse even when it hurts. Over the last two months, I had kept a lot of things inside because I didn't want to rock the boat. After all, we were mostly getting a long well, rarely argue, use POJA on all big things and many little things and my FWW is truly working hard at making our M all it can be...so why derail this. The reason why you have to let this out is that when you keep these issues to yourself it starts to form that same cancer knawing at your relationship as the dishonesty and secrecy did during your wifes affair. As humans, we have to compartmentalize these things and when that happens, nothing good is a result.

Leading up to my post to you yesterday, I had shared with my wife some things that I was really struggling with including my persistent thoughts about having a revenge affair even though I have no intentions of not continue to work through this recovery. I shared those thoughts with her so that she could help protect me from doing something that I really didn't want to do. Her response however was to basically not address it at all. BIG FLAG leading to POTENTIALLY BIG PROBLEMS. Think about it from her viewpoint, I tell her that I feel entitled to the rush of adreniline, emotions, sexual fulfillment that she felt during the A not because I was not getting my needs met from her currently but because she got to do it and I didn't. How did I expect her to respond to this...if she had tried to minimize those feelings that she experienced I wouldn't have believed her and we would have taken one step backwards, if she would have resigned herself to thinking well maybe he is entitled a have his own affair, a giant leap backwards. I put her in a no win situation, but her not responding at all was just another burr in my side that allowed me to rationalize that she really didn't care about my feelings which made my feelings of entitlement, fairness, resentment, rage, etc. Two weeks later I am still stewing about these issues internally and she is reading my anger as a reaction on something that was inconsequential. This had the potential for big trouble in our recovery...throw in an opportunity, and all the sudden I may have easily been WS/FBS. Not a good addition to my sig.

So how did this issue get resolved? Easy, everything is out on the table now. What I was feeling, what I percieved from her reactions to that, and most importantly a POJA on how we are going to protect our marriage from the threat of a revenge affair.

Everything in a relationship is a combination of individual actions that start perpetual motion in a direction. That direction can be the right direction or the wrong direction. The motions that move in the right direction are the ones that enhance the overall relationship and allow you to continue moving towards that truly intimate relationship that is utopia. But, physic tells us that perpetual motion without an energy source is impossible so natures forces throw in the clutches to try and stop that forward motion and reverse it to a backwards motion. When the perpetual motion wheels are turning backward in our recovery, both of the spouses in recovery have to be able to understand and identify what caused that backwards motion and put on the brakes to reverse the direction again. Both spouses cannot participate in this if one of the spouses doesn't see that the wheels are turning backwards and more importantly what factors caused the wheels to begin to turn backwards.

NT

I guess the difference is the situation in which things come up.

I hear and understand what you're saying and what I need to take away from your experience is to get the stuff out on the table while it's still fresh and not let it stew and build in my mind until it comes out in a big emotionally charged conversation.

If I can put it out there in a way that is calm and matter-of-fact way and not expect a response from her, it would allow her to think about it what I'm saying and feeling. Maybe she'd begin to actually put pieces together one at a time instead of me throwing handfuls of emotions at her and get angry she can't understand what I'm saying.

I know how it will go the first time or two (based on how it has gone in the past)...I'll make a statement about my feelings such as, "I felt like a chump that you let me buy you that CD thinking I was doing a good thing when in fact, the CD had a song on it you shared with the OM." She then will turn silent and angry and, if she says anything at all, it will be spiteful and accuse me of bringing up the past to drag her through it again.

Maybe instead of responding with something appease her anger or throwing another issue in with it (she's angry anyway, why not tell her some more?), I need to walk away for a time. LET her be mad, have room to herself to be angry and process the information I've given her.

At least it will be out on the table.

Thanks for the advice -- I need to process this into a way to confront these issues.