Thanks Marsh, any and all comments are always welcome. I'm with you too when it comes to being helped by the insights LA gives here. I'm still digesting as much as I can as well. But I am grateful for people who post here to have the patience and willingness to tackle some of these issues with me.

I'll write more later, but for now the thought that's rattling around in my tired head right now is that I don't really have faith that a marriage in this day and age can work anymore. I feel like the only way to keep a marriage is to more or less lie about yourself.

My thinking is that most people are faking it through life. And like you pointed out LA, I am fearful of fooling myself as much as anything. Afraid of being phony, but knowing that to some degree to function in this world I have to fake it sometimes, part of the time, to appease. I think we all care about what other people think to some degree, we desire acceptance, we are relational, we require and need love and who likes to be singled out as the odd duck, right? So to avoid feeling like an outcast, we appease each other.

So, instead of being truly themselves, people fake it to get along. Call them lemmings or pack mentality or whatever, I have always tried to avoid this. So much so that for a long time I have resisted doing things that would make other people happy just to be assured I am not doing things for other people. So badly, in fact, that I began NOT doing even reasonable things in order that I wouldn't be doing what others wanted me to do, just to keep my "independence."

It became, I will do nothing to "appease," so I will do nothing that I don't want to do 100% of the time. I was stuck, and I was unhappy, attempting to control. And it made people around me unhappy. Spontaneity died with it. Because I was constantly re-steering to avoid being controlled but was attempting to control in return.

Where is the balance between being independent and being reasonable? Adjusting the knob between being spontaneous and being organized. It depends, I suppose, on many factors and is quite unanswerable, but I ponder it anyway.

So we do things we don't want to do part of the time to get along. To be a loving spouse, to please others and get along with them, despite how we may feel about it personally (assuming it doesn't directly conflict with our deeply held beliefs.)

We do things to please each other. Compromise is what they call it. So we fake it. Sure, we may tell the truth about it, but we are still faking it to some degree.

I don't want to fake it. It makes me feel inauthentic. But I also don't want to be alone the rest of my life. I want to learn to love another while still loving and staying committed to myself.

But we are flawed people, we are sinful and some things we cannot abide. We form walls and make judgments, even if they are only for a season, but those seasons can breed long lasting contempt, anger, deceipt that sometimes lead to adultery and divorce.

You ask if I'm afraid. Yes, I am.

Because I don't want to fake it. I want to be real and that means allowing myself to be known by the other. And that means risking rejection and the rest. How can I trust another person to be able to deal with the awesome responsibility of knowing flaws and weaknesses (sure, along with the strengths but I'm talking about the things that push us away)?

How can I trust another flawed individual to place their trust in me? And then me to trust myself not to withdraw and trust them in return?

I just don't see how a marriage can really work. Someone will always want something else, maybe they won't act on it, but they will think about it. They will maybe even fantasize about it. I will. She will. Is that a lie then? Is that marriage a lie since it cannot be entirely whole for always?

You can see how my mind works here! Like a hamster running in a wheel, getting nowhere except back at the same starting point.

So much for writing only a little. The point was/is that two people cannot stay married unless they fake at least some or part of themselves for the benefit (or not) of the marriage. That to me seems phony. The other option is finding someone who can get in the ****** trenches with you, take the hits, call for the field medic, you bandage them up, they call in artillery, there is shrapnel, powder burns, deafening shockwaves and all the rest until the couple finally reach the quaint, sublime shores of the overrun beachhead and rest for a while sharing in their victories and defeats with one another. Regaining strength and rejuvenated until they come together again for the next battle.

Am I an idealist? Why can't it be like that? I have lost faith, because when I went down, I experienced watching my partner leaving me on the battlefield as I lay there on the scarred ground.

I want to know there is someone out there who will not do that. But it will require them accepting the brutal truth about many, many things. And the truth can be frightening. I fail to see the character in our culture today. Therefore I fail to see the character in many people today. And so I withdraw, and refuse to participate, and people wonder I'm just not happy-go-lucky.

Why I'm not engaged at that fun party. Why I seek solitude. Why I feel like a carrot in a lettuce patch. Why I feel like I have to be phony to get along with them.

Will anyone understand that enough about me to not aid the enemy at that critical hour? That season of wandering? Without hiding their own deeply seated quirks or fears? To put away the fairy tale and live life where we all have flaws and wounds and need medics?

I'm ready, but is anyone else? And how can I ever know that person is willing to die with me (no, I'm not asking them to die) I'm talking about LOYALTY! Where is it anymore?

Alright, I suppose I am being a bit selfish here. And I'm not sure the battlefield analogy works all that well, but I guess reading back over this post I hear too much complaining. Too much self-centeredness.

As if I am entitled to loyalty. I am not.

God deserves it way more than I do and look how we treat Him half the time. What makes me think I will find a woman who can fulfill that role for me? I should instead be worried about giving my loyalty to Christ, not calling for it from others. What am I giving? How am I willing to love my wife as Christ loves me and extend that love to her? Why should I command loyalty, instead I should extend grace and forgiveness as God has.

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

My joy will never wholly be found in a woman or spouse but in Christ complete.

John 4:13-14
Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Well, lessons are for learning, I suppose. I realize that taking the focus off myself and what I will gain and instead look at what I can give could be a new way of thinking for me. Not easy to do, but I am willing to give it a look.

That doesn't mean she will have no responsibilites to me. I pray she will share these same values in a marriage. I know that the closer she is to God, the closer I want to be to that particular woman.

Funny, I don't hear enough self-focus...but a whole lot on those scary "others" and their power.

Questions to ask yourself...are you loyal? How are you in fox hole? At a celebration? At the counter doing dishes?

Are you interdependent? That's the middle between independent and dependent...that 90 degrees. And living as authentically as you can right now.

Why do you believe we fake at any time? I'm wondering, because I am not seeing anything I do as fake. Nor appeasing. Am I self-deceiving? I'm thinking of coworkers, clients, vendors, husband, sons, FOO, strangers...I'm not being fake and not seeing it either. Then again, I accept people at their word now...like DH...and focus more on my stuff than theirs.

I might be the clueless one, Cor...seriously...but the word loyalty doesn't enter my world right now. Faithful does. I told my DH again, how I'd heard a song sung over the weekend and felt the drenching relief, again, from knowing I am faithful and it's joy for me now...no worries...just another reminder of sweet living in my choice.

Still finding all the ends to the maze of this choice.

And I can rest with my DH, interdependently, because I am trustworthy to myself.

I think God designed marriage brilliantly...where we can heal, be new, change the future, and live free...together. Interdependently.

LA

"I don't hear enough self-focus...but a whole lot on those scary "others" and their power."

I think I realized how much I was doing this after I re-read the earlier post. Too much of "what will others do" and not enough on how I will conduct myself.

"Are you loyal?"

I strive to live up to my commitments. I would like to think I would not leave when I was needed, and to walk with integrity in that. Not to say I won't make a mistake, but I won't leave. And not to say even those who have gone wayward and have come back aren't showing some degree of loyalty, they are, because at least they didn't roll over the stone on the marriage and pretend they can leave it for the next best thing.

"How are you in fox hole?"

Ready. Willing to delve into the battle and, sometimes it gets ugly, and sometimes we get injured and need to heal a bit first, but I am willing and ready to fight along side my spouse when it matters and I have tried doing that.

"At a celebration?"

Usually making the best of it if it's a large group. One-one-one, let's talk until the sun comes up. I celebrate better with less people.

"At the counter doing dishes?"

I do dishes every day, and have done them that way all throughout my marriage.

"Are you interdependent? That's the middle between independent and dependent...that 90 degrees. And living as authentically as you can right now."

I think I'm doing better. I'm actually much closer to family and friends because of what I've gone through, and working on myself like never before. Blessing from the ashes, sure. God works miracles in times of trouble. Do I wish it all came at once? Sure, but then that wouldn't be real maturing.

"Why do you believe we fake at any time?"

Because I still do. And I don't want to. What if we fake it so if we are rejected we at least can say we weren't truly being ourselves. Insulation. Isn't that sad. To go twenty years like that? I don't want it anymore...

"I'd heard a song sung over the weekend and felt the drenching relief, again, from knowing I am faithful and it's joy for me now"

That is where reality is so much better than fantasy, when we realize that how we are living is true and honest and respectful. It does make us feel whole. Something my resentful side tries to hinder. I hope to recognize that for myself again soon.

"Still finding all the ends to the maze of this choice."

Yes. I wish I could find the end so then I can relax and know I have it figured out. Sometimes I feel like I'm running a race with a thousand different finish lines, with no lanes, wouldn't it be easier to have a big stripe to follow?

"I think God designed marriage brilliantly...where we can heal, be new, change the future, and live free...together. Interdependently."

That sounds nice. I'll take some of that.

Cor,

Lemme clarify...going with your metaphor of loyalty and the battle/foxhole...which you got with my emotional/marital foxhole question...can you see where you strayed from the idea when you answered...

Celebration...how are you loyal when you celebrate? Do dishes, etc.?

My idea here is foxholes come and go...the majority of life is spent inbetween...tiny foxholes or clouds...your choice of perception...you are in a foxhole, I guess, right now...

Are you ready and willing to do what you need to do for your marriage?

Are you in Plan A or Plan B (foxhole strategy)?

The battle came to you...your marriage was attacked. The battle got ugly, not your union. You both are badly injured...how are you fighting for your WS (she would be outside the foxhole and your Wife would be in it)?

I am asking because I don't know...I'm not judging. When you were pondering loyalty, I used that as a signal...are you being disloyal to your self...is it your authentic self and self-image in the foxhole? Or is it your awareness and your authentic self in it, with self-image battling to take back your thoughts, your stride, your habitual beliefs?

Thank you for sharing about groups and dishes. I can promise you more than making the best of it in groups as you regain your authentic self and stay present. That was my experience Election night. Because groups are a lot of one-on-ones...rarely speak to more than one person at any moment...yet we can connect with a group, wordlessly. Self-image is what I believe destroys that as a comfort zone.

Dishes...the reason this came to mind is that my DH and I switch off...and last night, I was doing them with relish and gratitude, as if my DH was home with me, beside me. And he was working.

About the fakery...

What if this is you facing your fear of intimacy...which we have underneath or above our fear of abandonment? Self-image was created based on the belief we had to appear different than we were...we wouldn't be loved unless we earned it; we wouldn't be safe if we missed our step; and we would be punished if we weren't perfect. Three ways to trap ourselves into the impossible. In doing so, we disowned many parts of ourselves, lost our anger (if that was unappealing), our tears, if they dismayed. We moulded a being without a soul, outwardly tending, to keep our insides intact.

Dismantling that image, that crude creation, is a slow, loving, tender process. Loyalty is in there...you may feel by seeing in others what you are doing right now in yourself...being disloyal to what you created. Hey, we don't truly hate what we create...we love in our creations...so this isn't a throw-out or yet another disownment...it really is knowing what is self-image parts and what are authentic. Loyalty is a priority in action. Our self-image had those three priorities of its creation...you are acting disloyal and may see and fear it in others...

So, not being loyal to your own creation...is that bad or wrong? In this case, no...amends to yourself is undoing what you did...hence, the gentle approach. A signal when what riles you in others, peer softly into yourself and find the pieces you disowned from authentic self...

You are connecting more to friends and family...and you said it was due to the crisis you are experiencing...and I will ask you to reconsider that premise...I believe you are choosing to connect more...they seem safer than your spouse...so our fear of intimacy for them drops lower...and it will rise again, when they appear more threatening (judgment) than your spouse or partner.

What's the difference? One way is reacting from old brain; the other is acting in new brain...from choice. Awareness and acknowledgment of it. This helps train your habits, by using your new brain to signal your old brain safety through your perception, instead of death (fear/annihilation).

God did this...you know how he speaks of living consciously, with intention...through the old and new testaments, he speaks of old ways and new ways...guiding humans to look into themselves...and choose their ways, be aware and questing...hungering for truth...not disowning old brain...no abandoning...new life through knowledge of Him.

Belief in Him.

Can you see where what I post parallels this for humans to humans? Knowing what we believe, examining our own stuff (without judgment, as he advised), staying aware, knowledgeable of our thoughts, feelings and perceptions, too.

When you don't want something anymore...the false payoff falls away and you have clarity of what you do want. You want intimacy, connection...and we can feel fakes even to ourselves...from not knowing. Ignorance, not bad or wrong. Learning creates knowing, which creates understanding, which creates acceptance and results in living authentically. As we really are.

Highest loyalty is to truth...choosing to live and thrive there...staying present and sharing your stuff to be intimate...letting go the response.

You can't fake that. When you share, you are...and you are in the here and now.

The more you do, the less you will see others being fake at all...which is knowing more, understanding, accepting and being love in your life.

Great signals you're getting and sharing.

I knew how you were in a foxhole...because you're here...and you're healing by sharing. You are being intimate by sharing.

Were Adam and Eve faking when they hid from God in their shame? Can you trust God to know real and you not to judge? Focus on acceptance, understanding (not approval)?

Not one second of those twenty years has been wasted, Cor. What brings you here is necessary. Celebrate you're here, where you are now. And you know you have full choice whether you reveal or conceal.

God made you with that choice.

If you choose to believe that these are signals to guide you inward...then you'll understand and accept others who may fake or be disloyal, as their signals to themselves. Not about you.

I learned this with the villagers exercise...pet peeves part. I may react strongly when someone litters...and yes, I do...that's about me. Not them. Another person may react strongly to an outfit a stranger is wearing, "Why would she choose that?" and I'm not phased at all...doesn't compute...which means that's about the other person, not me. That's not my villager. I respect their reaction is truly guiding them...and I dwell on my litter.

I called it an all-victim crime for years. I have chased on foot cars in the street and yelled at them when they littered. Strong reaction. I knew the whole time I was littering...my entire life...with disowned pieces of myself...strewn my highway with parts of what was authentically me...discarded. Now, I just pick up the trash when I walk. No more strong reaction...no more chasing. And yes, I'm not great with it at times of stress. I have picked up litter behind someone, walked past them to the trash, waving it.

I'm still learning.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Your resentful side has been your false warrior and protector for longer than two decades...and it has seen you discard parts of yourself...so it's going to fight to be heard and needed. When you stop discarded and begin embracing your villagers, resentment quiets down...won't be homeless or without you...created from fear and suppressed anger (which we made unacceptable). Great signal for you...worth having to know and not act from. Your choice.

We are whole...and exactly what you said...living true, honest, intimate and respectful gives us our original self experience...being whole and complete as made. That's when your emotions hand you the feeling of wholeness, acceptance, understanding and peace.

Exactly.

You can choose to relax right this moment, knowing you are aligning yourself to living in truth. Doesn't mean you will slip or fall back...means you are on that spiral staircase, ever upward...in fact, as if the previous steps disappear behind you...no falling down...because you cannot be who you were...you may feel that way as you come around and face another pole, the same one of a thousand trips around before...and you are not. God's endless patience and love are in those poles...each time you encounter one of them is another opportunity to see them with new eyes...born of more experience.

We don't figure it all out...it's not linear. Would you consider that urge is from old brain, to feel safe? New brain knows that we have not fathomed all that we have already figured out...I bet you couldn't list them all in a month...

Change your symbol, your metaphor...running a race...which is not being present...it is going elsewhere, with a thousand finish lines and no lanes...being present is being at the start, the finish and every step in between, right now.

And you are.

A race, a walk, a linear path...all contain judgment...measuring distance, time, speed and a combination to get to ascertain progress. We are attempting here to get to where we know who we really are and live from it by sharing. Nothing linear about reclaiming yourself, is there? Lots of self-image, though, in measuring.

You're making your own stripe to follow...what could be easier? Being dependent on others to paint it? I don't think so. Your paint is in reading, listening, sharing and knowing...your brush is your awareness of answers already in you; your lane is wide and narrow, your choice. What's easier?

We are interdependent on God, when we make that our intention...we submit our choices to his...yet we remain the one choosing.

I believe marriage is where we grow from dependent (like the infants were) to independent (like the rebel toddlers), back and forth, growing individually, side by side, until we get to where we know our choices and our beliefs we choose from...until we make those choices from love.

And it mirrors our relationship with God.

I don't see judgment in there...I still bounce, sometimes to infant and to toddler and teenager and to tween...because there are a lot of me's I left by the side of the road. Too busy watching others' litter theirs.

LA

LA,

"What if this is you facing your fear of intimacy...which we have underneath or above our fear of abandonment?"

Fakery... associated with inadequacy. Yes, it's fear that revealing ourselves to another will leave us vulnerable and open to woundings we don't want to endure. I was not afraid to open up myself and I did reveal a whole lot to my WW.

Sometimes I feel like I reveal too much about myself. I know the idea is to be open and honest, but really, should the spouse know EVERYTHING? When does openess slide into weakness? Shouldn't there be a time when we just take it like an adult and live with it? Not everything can be talked through and or resolved this side of heaven.

Saying, I have a fear about such and such... many people do not see the ability to turn that admission into a place to grow with each other and a cause for better intimacy, reflecting God toward each other, this, in turn, actually helps get through the fear. Beyond it. But instead revealing becomes the equivalent of pleading guilty... showing weakness... so we hide, even from those we should trust the most... exactly because we fear losing respect from that person or hurting that person.

What man wants to admit any fears to his wife? Woman want to have a man who is strong, not struggling with fear or uncertainty. Many men would rather appear tough and keep respect while struggling with a pain or symptom for years.

It is part of being a man to bear all burdens in silence.

But then what happens when we as men admit a problem, where does that leave the woman? Will she accept the insecurities in a man, or will she finally desire a more romantisized, idealized man, who has no flaws only potency and strength.

The grass is always greener for some. Perceptions that have been molded long ago for ourselves and for others say "this is the way toward HAPPINESS" the key ingredient to all misery in this world: The pursuit of happiness.

But look what I learned from my experience with WW? That inadequacy is a reason for abandonment, right? No, it's a reason for entitlement. But who isn't inadequate in some area? It is living from that inadequacy that is hurtful. Admitting that to another, then eventually they say, "wow, so and so has got a lot of problems" Could she have seen my insecurities, my perceived inadequacies, that either I was propping up or she was building up in her own mind and used them to build a case to cheat? If I had not been so open about what I believed were problems would she have left? Just take them like a man, put on a good face, go out to the bar... carry on the pointless, topical conversations... So the creed becomes to fake it, instead.

So my lesson from WW was a harsh and hard one. Perform or it's over. Make me happy or I'm gone. There's a laundry list of reasons here, where should I start.

Gees, I feel sorry for the guy she's with now. Does he know he's next up for category and labeling? Ah, but sex with a strange married woman is so sweet... awww, how romantic. Adultery is such a wonderful aphrodisiac nowadays. TV says so.

Wrong lesson, Cor.

You are making her choice to have the A about you. And it was about HER. Her screwy thinking, her feelings of entitlement, her resentments,and her false beliefs. ALL hers.

You beat yourself up so much. It hurts to read your posts. She did wrong by having the A and you beat yourself up over it. Where's the sense of justice there? How is THAT fair, good or healthy?

Where do you find sin in being a human? Where is the sin in not living up to her expectations? Is there an eleventh Commandment that says, "Husbands do everything your W wishes you to."?

Does God want you to bow at the alter of your W's desires? All of them? No matter how screwy they might be?

I've been reading and re-reading a book called The Four Agreements. I know of several posters here who have read it. It is a tiny book, but packs a powerful punch. In it the author suggests that we have a part of our brain that is a judge and another part of the brain that is the victim. And everytime we break a rule in our law book, (which extends waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past the Ten Commandments) the judge finds us guilty and the punishment is handed out to the victim. The judge might say, "See, your W left you b/c you were not strong enough, good enough, sexy enough, blah blah blah....and the victim says, "Thank you, Sir, can I have more?" And on and on it goes. And every time you think of your W, the judge comes back in and sentences you all over again for the same things that aren't even SINS!!! Where is the justice there? Who gets sentenced in RL for the same things over and over again? And for things that aren't crimes or sins? And what if they were real sins that you've committed? Doesn't God forgive us after we ask him too? Why do we keep beating ourselves up for these things?

I'm sorry to ramble on here like this, but your post just struck a cord w/ me as some of the same things I've been thinking about.

Anyway, pick up a copy if you can. The idea is if you follow these four agreements, you can free yourself from much if not all of your emotional pain.

~ Marsh

"You are making her choice to have the A about you. And it was about HER. Her screwy thinking, her feelings of entitlement, her resentments,and her false beliefs. ALL hers."

Yeah, I know. I know it when I think rationally about it. And coming here brings that fact to light as well when people remind me of her need for entitlement. But there are times when my mind shifts into that place where I take the responsibility for what happened... and being a man, we feel responsible for our marriages and our wives. Not to say cheating is less painful or degrading for a woman, but different. The respect issue for me is huge. It feels like failure. And I'll be frank, it feels like failure to secure the admiration of my own wife.

If only I had done this or that... truthfully, it is getting better and I know a lot of this are her issues, but I really just want to let this all go -- so I talk about it, and some of it is ugly to talk about but I do it anyway. This affair garbage hits the psyche hard, and I want to heal from that. I didn't deserve this kind of contempt, this was a slap in the face, and the lies and distortions all add up to such a trespass by both my WW and this other man. It's hard for me to understand how they can continue in such self-deceipt. At least admitting the fault would be a start.

Look, I'm not the most confident person in the world. I have insecurities about myself. When something like this happens it sees to drive a wedge right into my wounds and then it twists. All the former insecurities are magnified.

I just never, ever thought this would happen.

"You beat yourself up so much."

Yeah, I know, it hurts. I'm working on it but sometimes I slip back into judgments. And they can be pretty harsh. Good news is I'm now aware of it and understand it's self-defeatist and lame. You're right, it's unfair and unhealthy. What else now except to change that behavior? To learn to live free, to be able to effectively relate to my next wife.

"Does God want you to bow at the alter of your W's desires? All of them? No matter how screwy they might be?"

Absolutely not. He asks us to look to Him. She could've chosen (as I could've) to be a reflection of that love in our marriage, instead she chose to lie and have an affair. She is not the person I should put my faith in, but she is a person I had trusted and the betrayal is hard to come to terms with. Part of me still clings to the idea she is someone I can trust, but this is not the case. She is a destroyer, it seems.

"I've been reading and re-reading a book called The Four Agreements."

I will check this out. Thank you for the post.

Great post, MM...

Hi, Cor!

"It's hard for me to understand how they can continue in such self-deceipt. At least admitting the fault would be a start."

The very nature of self-deceit is that they don't know they are self-deceiving...which is easy to continue doing that which you are unaware and inexperienced at doing differently...though you're surrounded by HUGE neon signs telling you STOP!

Big point here..."At least admitting the fault would be a start."

How often, Cor, do you attempt to get someone to admit, agree with something you know for a fact? What purpose does that serve in your world? I'm asking because this goes to all BS...and the whole admittance problem...

When you truly KNOW the A wasn't about you...get that into your veins...and you KNOW it was her choice, then your own lick of self-deceit will cease because you don't have to get anyone to admit/know/agree/state what YOU know...

unless

You have the ache for her to because then there could be change...is that it? Her own awareness, self-honesty, could change it all?

Knowing why we want something goes a long way to understanding and accepting what we already have.

Still with you...your focus seemed more on you than her...which is great...only I saw it mostly inbetween, in those "others", the generalities...and I wondered, what if what you think of yourself, who you are; what you believe, perceive and think...is enough for anyone? Because that would certainly be a blessing to me. Just about you. No judgment.

Know what you know, Cor...know it's valid. It's yours.

LA

"The very nature of self-deceit is that they don't know they are self-deceiving"

Right, I've been there before, done that, in other areas of life. Blindly marching along, hurting myself and others close to me. So then only when the pain becomes too unbearable and then we're forced to admit the error does it begin to unravel the grip of deceipt, acknowledging the suffering as a symptom of hurtful decisions helps come to terms with the problem. Medicating is the continuation of us masking over deep wounds with pleasure (which always requires more.)

"How often, Cor, do you attempt to get someone to admit, agree with something you know for a fact?"

I'm not sure, I used to do it all the time with WW. But started to learn it was not helpful and led to more hurt than anything good coming from her "knowing" what I already "knew." Influencing, sharing, acknowledging, living my beliefs, respect, encouragement: all much better than dictation. Dictating doesn't work. Much better to know and be known, I think. A pastor once told me, "you can be right; dead right." What good is being right when no one wants to be around you? I'm much more aware of this now.

"When you truly KNOW the A wasn't about you...get that into your veins...and you KNOW it was her choice"

That would be liberating... to KNOW it wasn't about me. To know I did what I could to repair and forgive and even then she continued... shows I didn't have the power to make it happen or keep it from happening. Wasn't about me then. If it were, then my asking for forgiveness, willingness to change and work on the relationship would've come to show in her actions, through recognition... it hasn't.

"You have the ache for her to because then there could be change...is that it? Her own awareness, self-honesty, could change it all?"

Her admittance would help me believe all my efforts were not for nothing. That my beliefs aren't flawed. My belief that willfully destroying a marriage has consequences... as of now I see none in her. It baffles me someone can do what she has done and just go on with life.

But I see what you are saying... her realizing her mistakes makes them no less mistakes than they are now. She is in her own world of what is real, acceptable, apart from reality.

"only I saw it mostly inbetween, in those "others", the generalities"

Not sure I get this completely.

"I wondered, what if what you think of yourself, who you are; what you believe, perceive and think...is enough for anyone?"

Not sure yet... I'm willing to keep trying.

You see, Cor, you do KNOW this. You KNOW in your head that the A wasn't about you, it was about HER. Your problem is that you don't BELIEVE it.

The reason you you don't believe what you KNOW to be true is b/c you have conflicting beliefs that are preventing you from agreeing to this current knowledge.

I don't know what those belief's are, but I would venture to say they have to do w/ things you believe about yourself. False beliefs. Like....you are a bad person, you are unloveable, you deserved to be left, ect....Get rid of those lying beliefs and you will be able to believe that the A had NOTHING to do w/ you.



See, this is where you're wrong. You don't need her to tell you that the A wasn't about you. The fact is, if she did say those words to you, you'd still not believe it. What you need is to stop DJing yourself. Realize that you have plenty of false belief's about yourself, Cor. Get rid of them and you WILL free yourself from this emotion torture you're putting yourself through.

~ Marsh

"Her admittance would help me believe all my efforts were not for nothing."

If you choose to believe your efforts, your goal, your desire to save your marriage was to your betterment, then it is...I keep pressing this point because you put so MUCH of your power on her, and feel that pain and anger, as a result...and it is no longer coming from her...it's signalling you that you're dependent on HER stuff...not your own.

Your choice to believe your efforts got you nothing...is what you will experience...nothing. Ouch! Your choices enlightened, showed you an aware and authentic life...you changed for YOU, and honored your marriage.

That's a heckuva lot...nowhere close to nothing.

"That my beliefs aren't flawed. My belief that willfully destroying a marriage has consequences..."

So, are you saying that only willful actions have consequences? Or all actions, no matter the intent, do have consequences...ripples...and those consequences are mostly out of your control...natural consequences you cannot control...logical you can. You define your boundaries and enforce them, around yourself.

"as of now I see none in her."

More judgment. What is your payoff?

"It baffles me someone can do what she has done and just go on with life."

It stuns me that 3,000 people can die and I wake up the next morning, unscathed. It stuns me that someone could exterminate 5million people secretly, without exposure. I learned there is survivor's guilt in all of us...that after our world blows apart on DDay, we go on...we wake up...we live when we truly feel as if we have died.

Humans go on. God's plan.

"But I see what you are saying... her realizing her mistakes makes them no less mistakes than they are now. She is in her own world of what is real, acceptable, apart from reality."

No. Turn your focus back onto YOU...just you and restate this paragraph. "I realize her mistakes are her own, whether she regards them as mistakes or not. They are not mine. I have no control. What I know, that I did not cause my WW's A, is true. I am not that powerful...I cannot make others do that which they do not choose to do, ever."

"My beliefs are valid."

I wrote: "only I saw it mostly inbetween, in those "others", the generalities"

You replied "Not sure I get this completely."

In your posts, can you see where your focus is? This time, it wasn't all on your WW...but I didn't see where it was centered around you, your stuff, either. Saying what others mostly, or many, or a few do or do that...feeling sorry for the guy she's seeing now...I'm talking about your post back to me at the top of this page...where you say, "Yeah, I fear such and such...many people"...think of it like writing...point of view...seems to me you switch your pov from you...what ARE your fears, insecurities, where do they come from...to others, many others...comparison like a reflex in your knee. From first-person to third person.

And I wondered...if this is your second choice POV...removing your focus from WW, pulling it back around yourself and on the way...sort of go to the comparison thing so instead of disclosure, awareness and acceptance...I hear about others I don't know...your perception of human reactions, instead of yours.

Is that clearer? I'm asking you to tell me why you don't feel confident, solidly yourself...Plan A helps in so many ways to live authentically...what you're doing to build your reasonable and equal knowledge of self, reap that self-respect and surety...because all of this pertains to getting to where you KNOW you were whole, eventually, all this time.

I believe when you truly embrace that you are separate and equal to every human, where your emotions are about you from you...signals...and you read them, know them, appreciate them...and not react from them...then your healing, your personal recovery, soars.

Your focus has to be in reality to get this. Her fantasy, her stuff...distracts, a routine distraction. Getting to your own nitty gritty is your power...your purpose...what you've owned and been responsible for all along...God's design. Not hers...not others, be them many or few...just you. Your stuff.

I don't hear the stuff we've practiced...finding your part...not being wholly responsible or not responsible at all...that middle ground...saying, "Okay, I chose to trust her blindly. I was betrayed." Do you have any difference in emotional signals, in their intensity, when you phrase your truth this way? Than when you say, "She betrayed my trust, my faith in her. She torched my heart and my dreams." Notice the level of pain when you say this aloud or think it as if YOU'RE the one saying it. Sit and feel...just feel what comes...and if you notice a drop in pain or fear or anger (whatever you are feeling when you say these), let me know, 'k? Which one.

I wrote: "I wondered, what if what you think of yourself, who you are; what you believe, perceive and think...is enough for anyone?"

You answered: "Not sure yet... I'm willing to keep trying."

Ever hear "To try is to lie" ?

Now, I'm going to ask you again...are you willing to choose to believe you are enough, all of your stuff, for yourself, for God and all other humans? It's a choice, Cor. Choose what you believe and live from those beliefs...experience your life in this manner...your CHOICE.

Would God have made you, only you, defective?

Less than?

You said you'd check out Four Agreements...did I miss my oh, yeah, on Getting The Love You Want by Harville Hendrix? Or did you already read that one...and if so, please, tell me what you thought.

Be diligent in your self-care, acknowledgment, validation...practice sharing your stuff...in person and here...wherever you choose...because practice teaches self the rules have changed...self is now worth what it really was, all along...and self-image is no longer wanted as idol...dismantling our misshapen creations does take time...but first, takes commitment.

LA

Hi LA!

"It's great day to be alive

I know the sun's still shinin' when I close my eyes!"

A little Travis Tritt for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You've got mail.

~ Marsh

"You see, Cor, you do KNOW this. You KNOW in your head that the A wasn't about you, it was about HER. Your problem is that you don't BELIEVE it."

You're right. I don't believe it yet. I can only think that if I had done better she wouldn't have done this. But somehow that doesn't quite add up either. Most people I have talked to about this have told me she would've done this anyway and will likely do it to someone else down the road. Some might be saying it just to alleviate my guilt but I have to admit I believe it's probably true.

I don't believe this was the last time for her. That's a big reason why I want out of this marriage as soon as possible.

On the other hand, I don't want to make that my focus. I continue to pray for her and forgive her even as I work to give up the anger and contempt. I don't want to have to fight this as a bitter man for years to come. That's why I am here, spilling it all out for you fine folks. I appreciate the readers and the posters, thank you.

"I don't know what those belief's are, but I would venture to say they have to do w/ things you believe about yourself. False beliefs. Like....you are a bad person, you are unloveable, you deserved to be left, ect"

False beliefs... bingo and yahtzee. I hold them. They hurt. But how to get rid of them I'm not sure yet. I believe seeking God's truths have something to do with it. Looking at myself through the Creator is paramount. But my conflicted self keeps telling me I AM unloveable... not by God, but by a spouse. Is that so hard to fathom when this is the experience I have come away with? I do feel unloveable... too many flaws... too incorrigible... too indecisive... too much emotion... men are supposed to be in control... haha... who is? But I feel like women just have these insanely unreasonable expectations about what a man can and will do for them.

News flash, we have insecurities... and just because some dweeb at a bar says all the right things doesn't make him a viable alternative to a husband who might still be at home waiting for you... Here's my problem... I keep trying to add my perspective into this scenario and it doesn't fit.

But the point is... yes, feelings of being unloveable... absolutely, because it's feelings of being a fraud and if I am found out then guess what happens... she leaves. And I don't want to live like that... I just don't understand where I can admit that vulnerability to a woman and not have her somewhere deep down thinking "this guy's missing something," ya know?

Like the kiss of death... she looks for bravado, false courage, excitement, induced passion... instead. So that's why I say people fake it. Rather than risk appearing weak they instead play strong and just wither away inside, I guess... I don't know because I usually tell my thoughts to a woman...

I'm not saying I just blurt out all my problems on the first date but, I mean, when appropriate... I just can't stand people who act as though they have nothing wrong with them and if you do you are a "nice guy" or something stupid like that.

So, yes, unloveable... in the long run, unable to have a long-term relationship for fear of being exposed. So instead of waiting for the exposed part, just talking about it up front. Maybe I should try pretending next time.

"Get rid of them and you WILL free yourself from this emotion torture you're putting yourself through."

It's getting better believe it or not, but I still need more practice and advice on how to LIVE it day by day.

"You define your boundaries and enforce them, around yourself."

It's hard to enforce when one is a people pleaser. Makes it hard to do. What's the key to doing it respectfully yet with substance?

"If you choose to believe your efforts, your goal, your desire to save your marriage was to your betterment, then it is...I keep pressing this point because you put so MUCH of your power on her, and feel that pain and anger, as a result...and it is no longer coming from her...it's signalling you that you're dependent on HER stuff...not your own."

Right, because I have been measuring myself by others' standards. How to stop? Getting a better sense of myself... through identifying, permitting and respecting.. setting boundaries, loving, forgiving... all of it.

It seems so unmanly... but in reality it is everything a man should be. Part of my conflict is accepting I can feel and share emotions when I have a perception that a man should bear burdens in silence and with definitive answers and self-reliance... if not then those emotions need to be shared and if they are shared they can be rejected. And not respected and men should not share emotions... but you see, I am an emotional person... just is the way it is. And I wish that I wasn't... not as painful, not as compromised... self-reliant, unwavering, strong.

So you see, misperceptions and conflicted beliefs can make the foundations a little shaky. Ever go through the day trying to react perfectly to every situation? Then when you don't you fail? The day is a failure? It sucks... don't try it. I want away from that, but I admit, I'm sensitive, conscientious about so many things. I want to put that away. But like you said, not supressing it, but not living from it, acknowledging it, but not reacting from it.

Ever believe everything someone says about you no matter how sarcastic or ridiculous it is? Even when you know it's a joke? Spend ten minutes trying to sort it out in your head?

It's getting better... but these are things I've dealt with and still do even to some degree. I want away from that.

And the more I seek Christ the better it gets, but it's tough.

"I'm asking you to tell me why you don't feel confident, solidly yourself"

Trying to please others, loses myself in the process. I just want to be myself... but when you're not typical, or have it all together entirely, and you feel like you are being judged all the time, it hinders life.

You know, this isn't easy to write, but if it helps get these misperceptions out of my system, that's what I'm here for. I hope it helps some others too, or maybe it just makes others feel like at least I don't have the most problems in the room... lol

"Now, I'm going to ask you again...are you willing to choose to believe you are enough, all of your stuff, for yourself, for God and all other humans? It's a choice, Cor. Choose what you believe and live from those beliefs...experience your life in this manner...your CHOICE."

Like believing I am good and honest and decent and willing to make up for trespasses and forgiving and willing to being there when it counts... yeah, I'm willing to make that choice. I see better now how it is a daily choice though.

Requires work every single day to make it happen. It is just so easy to put it on cruise control and hope life just works itself out. But it just doesn't happen that way.

"You said you'd check out Four Agreements...did I miss my oh, yeah, on Getting The Love You Want by Harville Hendrix? Or did you already read that one...and if so, please, tell me what you thought."

Four Agreements, Getting the Love You Want, Boundaries, all look great... I am still finishing up on Love Addiction... after that I'll look into these others.

"Be diligent in your self-care, acknowledgment, validation...practice sharing your stuff...in person and here"

I will do that.

[color:"blue"]You know intellectually that it's true, but it is conflicting belief's like these that prevent you from believing it...[/color]

1) I can only think that if I had done better she wouldn't have done this.

2) But my conflicted self keeps telling me I AM unloveable... not by God, but by a spouse.

3) I do feel/ [color:"red"]BELIEVE I AM/HAVE[/color] unloveable... too many flaws... too incorrigible... too indecisive... too much emotion...

4) men are supposed to be in control...

5) I feel/[color:"red"]BELIEVE[/color] like women just have these insanely unreasonable expectations about what a man can and will do for them.

6)she looks for bravado, false courage, excitement, induced passion... instead.

7)So, yes, unloveable... in the long run, unable to have a long-term relationship for fear of being exposed.

8) Part of my conflict is accepting I can feel and share emotions when I have a perception/[color:"red"]BELIEF [/color] that a man should bear burdens in silence and with definitive answers and self-reliance...

9) men should not share emotions...

[color:"red"]* I added the words in red.*[/color]


[color:"blue"]These are only the belief's you mentioned in your last post. You've got hundreds/thousands of them.

Read through them all and ask yourself if each of those beliefs are REALLY true.

I believe these beliefs set you up for failure.

Where did you get these beliefs from? God's Word? I don't think so.

I think you agreed w/ them as you grew, while you were young.

Your WW's A has brought these false belief's to your attention b/c it is these FALSE beliefs that are REALLY hurting you, Cor.

Change your belief's and you will free yourself from the pain you're feeling.

I don't believe any of them. Not one! [/color]

1) I don't believe if you were Jesus Christ, himself that your WW would have stayed w/ you.

2) I don't believe you are unloveable. Nope, not for a second. Just the opposite.

3) I don't believe you have too many flaws, are too incorrigible, are too indecisive, or have too much emotion.

4)I don't believe men are supposed to be in control.

5) I don't believe most women have unreasonable expectations about what a man can and will do for them.

6) I don't believe most women look for bravado, false courage, excitement, induced passion...

7) I don't believe you will be unable to have a long-term relationship w/ someone if you open up and share yourself w/ them.

8)I don't believe a man should bear burdens in silence and with definitive answers and self-reliance.

9)I don't believe men shouldn't share their emotions.

[color:"blue"]Now, it doesn't matter what I believe, what matters is what YOU believe.

Question your beliefs. Ask them if they are true. [/color]



I believe you are correct here.

Look at yourself as the Creator does....w/ loving eyes, forgiving eyes, accepting eyes.

See yourself the way He does.

When you look at the ocean, don't you praise God for His marvelous works?

Why don't you do the same when you look at yourself?

Aren't you part of His Creation?

Did He make you junky?

Your false beliefs are blinding you from seeing you the way God does..the way you REALLY are.

You have an image of what a perfect man should be, and you beat yourself up b/c you don't measure up to that image. Ouch!

Time to tear that image down. Change your belief's and your image will crumble.

You feel fake b/c you are trying to live up to the image you created in your mind of the "perfect man".

Tear him down and be YOU!

YOU!

The REAL YOU!


That's right. Change those misperceptions and false beliefs and sure up those foundations!



Yup. Sucks big time!



You're right it does suck trying to be perfect.

Especially if your image of perfection is not even God's image of perfection.

Why not just try to do your best?

It feels alot less stessful.

And it feels more accepting of self too.



Yup, I've done it many times. Sucks to do it.

Why should you take personally what someone else says about or to you? What they think or feel is theirs? Why make it yours?

In The Four Agreements, one of the agreements is "Don't take anything personally." When people try to feed you poison about yourself you don't need to swallow it. You can say, "No, thanks."

The Bible talks about curses and blessings, learn to recognize the difference, and act appropriately.

Please get the book, Cor, I believe it will help you w/ so much of this.


~ Marsh

Thanks Marshmallow and LA,

This post has been very helpful for me.

"You have an image of what a perfect man should be, and you beat yourself up b/c you don't measure up to that image. Ouch!"

Yep, I have been. And it's forgiveness I've been seeking lately. For her and for myself. Forgiving and loving myself is the first step.

The next step is believing this won't happen again. That I can move away from my past. That I'm not this cursed person who will always be abandoned. Because it is the fear of rejection and being left that perpetuates my defensiveness. Then I lose sight of how to treat myself and others with love and grace. I get angry and desperate. Blinded by the "need" for affection, admiration, sf and the rest.

Honestly, I'm afraid to get into another relationship for fear this will come up again. That I will continue to operate from this childlike prospective.

There is much to learn. But honestly I don't believe I can learn it all without being in another relationship. I mean, some of it I can, but not all of it. Some parts I will need someone else to help me realize "this is true." So it's not as though I can just remain alone and hope to pick up on all that needs to be understood and experienced.

Accepting myself is the beginning. Then I will be able to accept others and not judge so much.

A problem with that is: I really keep believing if I reveal myself to the next woman she will she all my weaknesses. Like I will be transparent. And I keep hearing some of the lies my WW told me run through my head. How can I forget the lies?

I bought that book. I am a slow reader but have read the first section. It has been helpful.

"Why not just try to do your best?"

I will. Letting go of the need to be perfect is at the top of my list. It is too tiring and doesn't payoff anyway.

One more question though. In all these books it talks about loving self first. And then from there the rest of your relationships will have a good foundation or starting point.

The question is: how do I love myself? I mean, how do I really learn to love myself when I have not been doing that for a long time. Instead I've been hiding from myself. Hurting myself. Denying myself and hoping that the other person would make-up for my own fear or deficiencies.

Man, this isn't easy to say but I have to know: how do I love myself? I mean, is there a workbook for this?

Do they really teach this stuff anymore? Or are we just supposed to figure it out on our own?

Am I too late? It seems like everyone else has already learned this lesson except for me. Honestly, it seems like I'm the only guy typing this stuff on this website. Are there any other men out there who have read this thread and have any clue about what I'm talking about?

LA, I've been reading more on the Love Addiction book. And to be honest, it scares me. Because I don't want to live life like I've realized I've been living. In some sort of blind fury and clamoring for something I wanted (love, admiration, respect) and yet I was pushing it away at the same time with the belief that I didn't deserve it. Or that if there was someone who was willing to give it, it was because they were somehow dificient and then I would lose respect for them. And then try to control them because I saw them as weak-willed.

Oh, boy. This really makes me feel like I have some major issues. LOL! I never really thought of myself like that.

But I would like to recover out of this mess. I think part of me being standoffish and shy is that I'm not sure how to present myself so others will like me. So I wait to really show through until I know which angle to play. I is exhausting. The other part is I sometimes feel like I don't have anything in common so, not so much out of a need to people please, I just stay away. Too much effort. And to just be alone and retreat. Withdraw from everyone.

I relate to what it says about only pursuing someone who is an addict. But I don't want to be an addict. I just want to live a normal life with a normal relationship.

I believe I can, but it's my fear that it will creep up on me and I will start living from that avoidance again that scares me. I do not want to disappoint a future woman that I will love.

Is this just life? Is this just learning? Or am I really one of the few who deal with this kind of thing? The mental exercising over the ins and outs of relationships and life? Can't I just sit back and be one of these cutout guys who finds his girl and lives as a man is supposed to live, with confidence and ambition and strength?

Where did I ever get that idea from? That I was supposed to be living the perfect life on a perfect time frame and with all the trimmings?

Now look at me... a divorced thirty-something with nothing but questions... here we go.

My WW called me ten minutes ago to tell me she has some old Christmas decorations of mine. She's planning to drop them off at my house. The point is when I talk to her 7 months out of d-day, it still hurts. I get a bit emotional, my voice gets a little jumpy. I wish I just felt nothing.

No feeling. No hurt. Just emotionally on top of it all, but I guess I'm just not there yet with her.

We have barely talked in the past three months/four months. She just left. She vanished. Gone. No goodbye, no "it was good knowing ya" Nothing. Poof.

Does this not strike anyone here as a bit insane?

I can't imagine going through life like that. I mean, if it was some boyfriend or your pet fish, maybe you just cut it off, but your husband?

I don't know. Today, all the negative thoughts are surfacing again. Self-defeating thoughts. Going back to that small, childlike place. Where I sit sometimes, wallowing in my doubts.

I've realized that there is nothing worse than self-doubt. It doubles all of my flaws. Because I focus on them, worry about them, cut myself down with them.

I want to believe I am making improvements, but then there are days like this where I feel like I've gone nowhere.

Any words of wisdom out there?

Please add "choice" into your thoughts, statements and perspectives...

"I choose to self doubt. I choose to double my flaws, focus on them; choose to worry about them and cut myself down with them."

Know your choices so you can choose differently.

Yes, I believe everyone is on your journey...to find out how to love our authentic selves, through God's eyes, his handiwork, which everyone is...everyone.

You do not trust yourself...because of the choices you continue to make (see above)...you can build trust in yourself each time you choose differently...which is what confidence, strength and self-respect truly is...your moment-by-moment choice to NOT cut, tear down, exaggerate or abuse yourself.

Your AWARENESS is up, Cor...you are doing this...I believe you do the routine of old far less than you did it back then...and part of that self-cutting comes from your choice to dwell in the past...and in the future...stay present.

Today, acknowledge you are fearful of seeing WW...and angry at your emotions, which are information about you from your beliefs...address what MM wrote...because there is where your internal power struggle is coming from...and still, you see what WW does more than what you believe...and you want to wish it away...solid information to you, about you...wished away.

The most powerful, strong and sure act in life is acceptance. Stay aware of each time you choose to accept what you cannot control.

Tell me, Cor...do you believe in God and Jesus from proof? Because you say you want to believe you're making improvements but then there are days like this where you feel like you've gone nowhere...do you do this with God? Evaluate, judge and have your faith go up and down, daily, depending on your proof of him?

Or do you choose to believe, to your bones...and live from that belief...sans proof...pure choice...great faith which wroughts deep gratitude, awareness, and as a result, you see proof every moment of his existence?

Why not you, Cor? Why not focus on your choice to believe you aren't making improvements...to improve on God's creations is nutsy...you are getting closer and closer to accepting who you truly are, as created...know the extent of your wholeness and your human limits...and to celebrating his design...

You celebrate without proof, don't you? You have holidays where you have a rough interpretation of what they are for...and you choose to celebrate them, through your understanding, anyway? Do the same for yourself...faith first, trust in your belief and live from it...then you WILL stop judging, evaluating, cutting, disparaging and reviling God's great work...which IS you. Entirely. Wholly. Completely.

And wisdom comes from listening to the wise...remains your choice to BE wise by what you choose to listen, understand, acknowledge...what resonates within you...

Worry is like praying for what you don't want.

Ack.

Live presently...all everyone has...stay here, now...and strive first to understand, then be understood...not judge first, evaluate, predict or punish yourself to do better...not required. You are an adult...you truly are...accept your child parts (they are you; love them as you would children); love your flaws (as you call them) by finding out why they are in you...because you created them...find out where they come from and hold them...own them...not bad, good or wrong...just you, entirely.

Stop emphasizing your "good points" fragmenting yourself into parts...wholeness is just that...all of you...I am cruel...I have cruelty in me...I know where it came from, it's purpose and I choose not to act from it...and own it, anyway.

How about you state, "Wow, I feel pain, emotional, and fearful hearing your voice or seeing you." Own your stuff. It's yours. Share your stuff...you're worth it. Two steps to do all the time...know and share...and be safe to be shared with.

Don't go into a future that isn't here...you may reconcile...unless you choose not to...you're right, there is a lot of this which can only be done within a relationship...and a lot you are already doing right now...your urge to fix, solve, smooth, abate and recreate is strong...know that urge and where it comes from inside you...listen to YOURSELF, Cor...inside...and be safe to hear yourself, 'k?

((((((Cor))))))))

Did God create you from fear or love? Know which one you're reacting to...understand...trace them back...and act from love. Towards yourself. Without proof of worth or value...

LA

"Know your choices so you can choose differently."

Easy to forget. And I had forgotten this simple thing. My ability to choose. To think about something else if I want. To redirect my focus.

It's my emotions that get me wound up though. Thoughts are one thing, but when I begin a day with anxiety, and that void inside, it gets me down. Like I'm just keeping my head above water. Not really there with my whole self. Not present, just presenting.

"Your AWARENESS is up, Cor...you are doing this...I believe you do the routine of old far less than you did it back then"

Funny, I met with a long time friend yesterday. He told me (after some deliberation over which word to use) that he saw a change in me and that is I am more "aware." That is good. I have been in pursuit of understanding for a while now. Everyday the more I can gather and process and live from what I learn... the better. An ongoing thing, I know.

"Today, acknowledge you are fearful of seeing WW...and angry at your emotions"

I am angry at those emotions. I don't want to be emotional. So there is conflict there. I feel as those women don't respect men who show emotion. They may say they want their husband to "talk" and "communicate" but how long would they be saying that if their husbands really told them about their fears and insecurities? Because, to me, women want a man that makes them feel safe, that they can respect, not a man who is philosophical, showing emotion, frailty even. Maybe I have just never met those women. Not that I'm not able to stand in the gap between my loved ones and danger, but I am not as deliberate in that regard.

I mean, if a woman teases me, does that me she doesn't respect me? Or is she just being playful and feels safe enough to do so? I have trouble distinguishing between a veiled, subtle insult and a friendly jab. Sometimes I try to analyze the deeper reason behind the remark, so then I have to attempt to ban all kidding altogether. You can imagine how much fun that makes things, lol. Or I get real serious and how boring is that. I am too sensitive at times. The alternative is to ignore the comments, but then I would become withdrawn like what my WW eventually did.

"Tell me, Cor...do you believe in God and Jesus from proof?"

No. I believe ultimately by faith. Although God has given us evidences of His existence, it is my faith that allows a relationship with Him. I see your point. Have faith in God's creation which is me also. To have faith in God but disparage myself, is to turn my back on God. I see.

"Stop emphasizing your "good points" fragmenting yourself into parts"

Right. My tendency is to measure. Using the big ruler again. It hurts when I choose to measure. I always walk into a room or conversation shorter than I was before because the ruler is so tall. Expectations from wrong beliefs are of course part of the problem.

"Two steps to do all the time...know and share...and be safe to be shared with."

I want to be able to share. But the problem is knowing when to stop. I don't want to just dump it all out there. Sometimes I can share too much, like when there is no point to it, just mind dumping... like I said before, expose too much and then you have to trust the other won't use it against you later.

"Don't go into a future that isn't here...you may reconcile...unless you choose not to"

I have left the door open for reconciliation, but now I am actively pursuing the divorce. I have been given absolutely no reason to believe she won't go through with it. I could resist and cause a stink, but I've realized that I want to be with a woman who desires a relationship with Christ more than with an affair partner.

Now I'm not saying WW cannot change. She can. She could today. I pray she will. But even if she did that doesn't mean we will stay married. I believe it has passed for that kind of relationship between us.

"act from love. Towards yourself. Without proof of worth or value"

Would be a whole lot easier...

Wow, LA. This post has been great. Thanks to you and MM.

Corinth

Yes, Cor...easy to forget. Which is why I ask you to remind yourself, to insert it, to train your brain...this is what I want...and it will hand you it after awhile, keep you aware...because you want to be.

"It's my emotions that get me wound up though. Thoughts are one thing, but when I begin a day with anxiety, and that void inside, it gets me down."

Emotions intensify when they are not getting their information acknowledged and delivered. When you begin your day feel anxious...take a minute to sit, acknowledge the anxiety and trace it back to the belief it is coming from...MM pointed out a lot of beliefs in your post. We often confuse beliefs for feelings...even say, "I feel robbery is wrong" when it isn't a feeling; it's a belief.

Take a moment to see what you believe about emotions...if you believe there are good and bad ones...where they come from...what God gave them to us for...where are they in the human design...crafted from love. Pure love.

Your perceived void is not a feeling...it's a belief. If you choose to believe you have voids...trace them...are they from expectations? Wishes? Desiring something different which you have no control? Acknowledge those expectations and wishes...your desire...and check to see if YOU are the one not fulfilling them...or if they are unreasonable, exaggerated.

Make your intent to know...not judge or change...to know yourself...to know God's design of you...and you'll be able to trace them more easily, without resistance...be gentle with yourself.

"Like I'm just keeping my head above water. Not really there with my whole self. Not present, just presenting."

I really got this from your description of your interactions with other humans. Anxiety is a signal of fear...of failing or being false...remember that discussion...check your belief...Are you planning on being inauthentic? Pleasing and resenting? Feeling judged because you are judging yourself instead of accepting yourself? Do the digging to know...accept...understand...and then change the belief.

You are not your enemy. Your emotions are not to be fought nor run from...they are to be received, understood...known. They have a purpose.

Not good or bad...they are.

Would you consider changing your relationship with your emotions from this new perspective? You don't want to be emotional...God made all humans emotional...spiritual...mental...and physical. Didn't he?

Are you trying to tweak God's design?

What if you choose to change your beliefs about emotions...do you think your anger at them will drop off? Stop signalling you..."I don't like this! This hurts! Feeling anxious SUCKS!" Anger is a secondary emotion...most of the time it is in reaction to the primary...you jump from fear and feel anger from your reaction...which is really coming from a self-judgment...that you're a fraidy cat...remove the DJ, your anger does not follow. You jumped. You were fraid. Be okay with that. I've learned to laugh with it...which is acceptance to what is mine...delight in the shiver of fear and not act from it...or if I jump when my YS, who prides himself on scaring me...I laugh and hug and laugh some more...and he says, "I got you!" and I say, "Yes, you sure did!" I am tickled by my own spontaneous reaction...not angry. I used to be angry, felt threatened, abused and reacted on those feelings...not any more. Amazing. I accept I startle at noises and erratic motion...I'm okay with it. Not good or bad...just is.

No anger follows.

Amazing to me, Cor. Seriously.

You believe that women do not respect men who show or speak of their emotions? How about...men who are reactive...not emotional? When can you think of a women not admiring a man who stated his emotions? His thoughts? His beliefs? Didn't act out on them...spoke and shared. And if you believe this serves God's purpose, his creation (YOU), and you have no control over what any human thinks, what they admire, what they don't...will you free yourself from your bounds? When it rises to your code...you matter. Your choices matter. Basing your choices on others' possible responses is slavery. And disrespectful to others. They don't want that burden...they have their own.

When will you trust your code? What you put into it, how you live up to it? I know that's been ongoing for me...get there and slip back...lose perspective...regain it...align and act from my own code again as my act of self love and respect. I'm building my trust in myself with each choice...to align with God's design, not human reactions.

Not easy...more than fulfilling.

Do you want to be safe, feel secure, with your partner? Hiding, lying by omission, does that get you there? Why would this be a gender issue at all? To know and be known...God's mandate...his desire for you to know HIM and him to know you...all of you...with your permission, invitation. Why wouldn't this be our base mandate as humans, made with free will, choice and from love and respect? Where does sharing all of you turn off others? Does it not free them, give them your permission, invitation to share all of themselves, as well? To say, "This is what I fear" and know what they fear? How is that weak? That is might and truth and strength.

If you are not okay with your own insecurities...you will not perceive others as being okay with them either. If you encompass all of yourself...all your villagers, I believe you will change your belief about genders...for Jesus was a man...and he was loved thoroughly, respected intimately, and he spoke, shared, knew and was known. Do you want to be like him or a stereotype? Your choice.

When you remove your permission to manipulate...to live manipulatively (basing your actions and words on possible response), you will stop feeling manipulated or controlled. You will stop feeling judged and assessed...when you stop doing that to yourself. Revoke your permission, Cor.

You cannot tell a veiled insult, jab or intentional arrow? Welcome to the human race. Speaks well of you to NOT DJ...speak even better by asking for clarification...which is a compliment to the speaker...you want to understand...not a statement about you not getting it...even when others seem to...you didn't. Live in truth. Clarify and then you'll know, won't you?

Take the guess work out of your life. It's not analytical at all...it's guess work.

Why judge yourself too sensitive? Why name-call yourself? We are all emotional beings...at times, it sounds like to me, you feel more vulnerable and unsure, confused...and other times, not so much. Be aware of why you feel more vulnerable or unsure at times...bet you'll find a big, fat ol' assumption going on behind it. And I'll wager you more, it isn't close to true.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Too serious? Hmmmm. More judgement. Ouch!!!

I bet you were not born with a measuring stick in your hand. You learned to measure...trace it back...see where you took it on...what false payoff is behind it...know all the strings attached to it...every one of them...because God doesn't put it in our nature...others put it in your environment. Judgment corrodes, lies and distorts. There are no facts about thoughts, feelings, beliefs or perceptions...only actions. Find out where that boundary got smeared...what emotions it gives you to believe you're judging someone well...find the payoff.

And then tell me about it.

Please?

No one can use anything against you later...or now...because they don't have domain over what is yours...when you share from choice, conscious choice, it remains yours...never becomes theirs...the knowledge of you does, not your essence...so you cannot be used against yourself at any point. "You said this three days ago. Are you lying now?"

"No, I have changed my beliefs. Thanks for noticing. I appreciate you clarifying before you judged me a liar."

Truth is truth...its strong and relentless--it is light and air...it is beauty. Seriously. No weapon...The truth shall set you free...live in it, bathe your beliefs in it and accept who you are, what you say...and choose to believe that judgment DESTROYS truth. It does.

Also, be aware that in deciding that your marriage relationship has passed, you are telling self that you have the power to destroy when you error...misthink...become foggy or confused...when you harm, you deserve to be left...these are all the backside messages...and being aware helps you know that YOU'RE choosing, not HER.

Two-way street doesn't stop. You judge her for choosing an AP over Christ. OUCH. Is that within your domain? Is that what God gave you power over? Or are you discerning something from judging her actions...taking into that domain where only she is given control?

She is in an affair. She is not pursuing reconciliation with you. Know the difference of facts and assumptions. You are choosing to not reconcile nor save your marriage. That's not your goal. Your goal is to replace your wife.

Would that be fact? Your goal is to have a healthy, faithful relationship in your future...where you only have domain over your healthy, your fidelity, correct? And your relationship with Christ. Period.

Same limits and power as you had in your first marriage. Nothing different. Different person.

I say this to own your choice...because you phrased it as "I believe IT has passed"...and there's no ownership in that pronoun. It's not even human.

As far as more judgment in "Would be a whole lot easier"...not harder, not easier...it would be a loving choice to stand in reality with your mind, body and soul. Not measuring or judging...knowing what is or is not...

I would really like to see your response to MM's beliefs...see if she did identify them in your opinion and what you think of them.

I feel great honor you share here, Cor. Honor to receive your attention, appreciation, honesty, and your journey. You ARE da huMAN.

LA